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Kevin Lynch

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #100 on: November 08, 2014, 10:05:14 PM »
7th Aerial:



From the left tees, you can see how the front left bunker is much more in play.  I drew the lines to the left center, as a ball that lands in the middle of the green will usually fall well to the right.

If you appreciate the slope of the green, the right bunker shouldn't come into play, because even with a right pin, you should be aiming well left.




Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2014, 10:05:15 PM »
I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.

Seven is indeed pretty straightforward hole.  I always look forward to the tee shot.  It is what happens to the ball after it lands on the green that I love.  I don't hit it as high as I used to so I get some roll. I enjoy trying to figure how much it will roll out after it lands.  You can have some pretty interesting putts on this green, because of the slope.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2014, 03:19:29 AM »
Kevin,

thanks for the reply. I do still wonder if any of the bunkers are really necessary from a playing strategy though do get your point on the visual impact. This green has to be the coolest green so far from the point of view of asking the golfer to imagine a very straight forward question about allowing fro the slope in a similar way to Gibraltar (Moortown, Leeds) and the 11th at Alwoodley.  I am afraid I am constantly asking if bunkers are really necessary whilst playing course as often GCAs use them as a visual prop.

Jon

Lou_Duran

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—first hole posted
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2014, 09:55:12 AM »

It is true that the tee shot is not unduly demanding for a starting hole after playing it for the first time.  The approach to the green, however, could be much friendlier.  My recollection is that the second shot, though with a short iron or wedge, is considerably uphill.  Coupled with the severe false front and that many if not most players haven't loosened up yet, the ball is likely to come up considerably short, often into a minefield of divots.  The subsequent pitch is no picnic, and even if you get it on the green, the fun is just beginning.  A starting hole such as this one on a busy course would set the tee sheet back.  With a 9-iron approach from the fairway on the first day and a wedge on the second, both hit reasonably well for me, I am a combined 3-over on that hole.


I'm not sure I understand the comment that the approach could be friendlier.  It's a short shot from a very wide fairway.  You said that you struck a 9 iron and wedge reasonably well but were 3 over on the hole.  Perhaps you should have struck a 9 iron or 8 iron reasonably well (which isn't an onerous demand, even for the first shot of the day).  I don't see how asking a player to adjust for a considerable incline is a design flaw in any way.  To the contrary, I find these things interesting and an asset for the hole. 

The criticism of the minefield of divots was a fair one, as the balls tended to collect to the area front left, and if the pin was left, you had to get the 3rd shot up and over the bunker (an unfair ask from a divot).  I would need to be overly aggressive simply to dig the ball out and would often run just over the green, leaving a very difficult downhill chip.  However, as Tommy & I mentioned, that has been addressed and the slight cushion of rough now allows you get under the ball and have a more reasonable recovery attempt (even bringing in the possibility of playing a shot off the high back bank of the green).

I just find some of the criticisms of the 1st hole to be a bit misguided. 

- The drive gets in people's heads because of the visual, but it's really not all that long of a shot. I've overcooked a draw on that one to discover there's a lot of room left on that fairway.  If you think a forced driver carry to start the day is a bit much, it can still be easily cleared with a 3 wood or hybrid (assuming you're not biting off too much tee) and still leave a reasonably short approach.

- I think the approach gets criticized simply because so many people can't believe they took a double from the middle of the fairway with a wedge or 9 iron in their hands.

Like I said, I think the former divot minefield was a valid criticism, but that doesn't mean the false front is a bad feature. 


Sorry to be late on a reply.  I happen to believe that the first hole is among the most important as it introduces the course to the golfer.  By happenstance I recently found this piece by another GCAer who, unlike me, is paid to put his thinking on the ground.

http://adventuresingca.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-first-hole.html

How could the approach on the first hole be friendlier?  Well, we agree that the drive requires neither extraordinary length or accuracy.  Yet, it is the #5 handicap hole on the course.  This must mean that the approach and/or the green complex are very difficult.  IMO, they are, particularly for being right out of the box.  BTW, I took the first 20 scorecards out of my 2014 box and the average hole handicap for the first hole was just under 10.  While mine was hardly a scientific sampling, I suspect that if I increased the sample size to the last 100 different courses I played, Bh's #1 would place in the top 10-20 in terms of relative difficulty. 

As to whether it is a "design flaw", I didn't allege that- perhaps Lester likes to get the golfer's blood flowing from the outset.  I like uneven lies and elevation changes which Bh has in spades throughout the course.  However, if it was just a matter of hitting one more club on the approach (or a solid drive on a better line), I would be playing at a much higher level and we wouldn't be having this discussion here.  That Lester had to come back and ring the front of the green suggests that things didn't come out like he planned (which is often the rule in golf course design rather than the exception, and why Ross and Dye earned their reputations for tinkering with what became their best work).

Nice thread thus far.  I tend to prefer courses that minimize forced carries, keep the native vegetation well away from the playing areas, and are walkable.  That I came away after two rounds at Bh with very good impressions of the course speaks to its great beauty, challenge, and the nice people there.  As I recall, I botched the 18th hole to allow a certain opponent from the North to prevail.  I am keeping my ammunition dry until we get there.


J Sadowsky

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2014, 11:25:20 AM »
I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.

Seven is indeed pretty straightforward hole.  I always look forward to the tee shot.  It is what happens to the ball after it lands on the green that I love.  I don't hit it as high as I used to so I get some roll. I enjoy trying to figure how much it will roll out after it lands.  You can have some pretty interesting putts on this green, because of the slope.

In a course that eschews subtlety, seven is perhaps the most subtle of the holes on the course.

I should mention that I thought the par 3s were the weakest part of the course, not because they lacked interest, but because they lacked options.  Ballyhack is a course that is all about options, and yet the par 3s is a straightforward redan-type hole, a shot that requires loft, a drop shot, and a shot over the canyon.  Each hole provides a different challenge, so that's good, but you,d like at least two holes that have different ways to approach the shot.

- J

PS - please don't take this as outright hostility, as I loved the course.  Every course has a weakest part, that doesn't mean that the part is weak relative to other courses.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 11:29:05 AM by J Sadowsky »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2014, 11:55:00 AM »
I remember 7 looking pretty straightforward but consistently beating people up in my groups.

Seven is indeed pretty straightforward hole.  I always look forward to the tee shot.  It is what happens to the ball after it lands on the green that I love.  I don't hit it as high as I used to so I get some roll. I enjoy trying to figure how much it will roll out after it lands.  You can have some pretty interesting putts on this green, because of the slope.

In a course that eschews subtlety, seven is perhaps the most subtle of the holes on the course.

I should mention that I thought the par 3s were the weakest part of the course, not because they lacked interest, but because they lacked options.  Ballyhack is a course that is all about options, and yet the par 3s is a straightforward redan-type hole, a shot that requires loft, a drop shot, and a shot over the canyon.  Each hole provides a different challenge, so that's good, but you,d like at least two holes that have different ways to approach the shot.

- J

PS - please don't take this as outright hostility, as I loved the course.  Every course has a weakest part, that doesn't mean that the part is weak relative to other courses.

I understand what you mean. I think where the options come in are on the various tee markers.  On seven the tee up on the hill is a very different hole than the tees below.  There are many different teeing options on number 13 from way left to straightaway. The same is true on 17.  I do agree that the ground game is not an option on the par threes. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2014, 07:10:22 PM »
#8 Par four 383, 350,319,294, 294

The key to 8 is the drive, and as usual Lester gives the player options off the tee.  This is one hole where it becomes essential to play the correct tee, especially for short old men like me.  I play it from the 319 tees because it is important to reach the flat part of the fairway.  Anything that is short rolls down toward the right rough line where the second shot is obstructed by a tree.  Longer players can hit it through the fairway, although there is much more room out there than it appears from the tee.  The second shot is a short iron to a wide but relatively shallow green.  This is another hole where I think birdie.

What is unclear from the tee is that there is an alternate fairway to the right of the creek and tree.  Longer hitters can drive it pin high where there is only a short pitch left.  I will even give it a go and all I have is a sand wedge in to the green.  

The best line is a cut shot to the right of the tallest tree on the left side of the fairway.  I don’t like to move the ball right to left on this hole.  If I leave it out I have a more difficult second shot.  


To the right of the tree over the dune is the alternate fairway.




You can see the left to right motion of the fairway.




Second shot from the right-hand section of the fairway.  This is not the usual place for a second shot but I can’t find another picture, however, this gives a feeling for the type of shot.  What is not visible is the creek in front of the green.  A creek runs between the two fairways and in front of the green.


This is the view of the second shot from the right fairway.


Looking back you can see the two fairways and the creek.  

This view from the ninth tee box gives a good sense of the greens complex.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 07:12:21 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2014, 10:30:00 PM »
Here's the aerial of the 8th hole for reference:



For me, the difficulty of this hole has always been trusting the width of the fairway on the left side.  From the tee, it looks so much narrower than it is in reality.  Looking at the above, you see the "orange" width of the fairway (~25 yards) from the tee, but the actual width ("blue") is closer to 50 yards.

What makes the tee shot feel narrower is the fact that the left fairway slopes severely from left to right.  If you don't hit your tee shot with any drive, it can kick across the entire width of the fairway (e.g a ball landing on the left side oft he orange stripe could end up in the right rough if the ball flight is not strong).

From the above, the left tee shot is ~260 yards (from the Ballyhack - 350 yard tees).  To the right, you need to carry ~230 yards to reach the fairway.  On the right side, there is a severe right-to-left slope which will help you back towards the fairway.  I have tried this route many times, but if you are not confident with the 40-60 yard partial wedge, this is not the route for you. 

I am not good at this partial shot, but unfortunately for me, I still struggle getting over the mental block of taking an aggressive swing at the left fairway, so I typically play for the right landing zone and take my chances. This seems a little counterintuitive because the right fairway is almost completely obscured.  It's odd, because I'm more confident in the width of the right FW knowing it's large but obscured, but I can't believe the left is bigger that the 25 yards it shows me. 

You will note that I circled a very small bay in the greenside bunker.  This is for Jim Sherma since he had a bad experience with this bay in October.  The bay is so narrow that it is almost impossible to take a normal stance or downswing, and it almost an unplayable lie (think of it as a very small pond).  There are several of these extreme lies scattered among the bunkers at Ballyhack which can lead to some significant muttering.  Over the years, I have developed a list of bunkers at Ballyhack I want to avoid at all costs simply for this potential rub-of-the-green. 

Perhaps Jim or Carl may want to take this opportunity to expound upon the bunkers as a punitive hazard at Ballyhack.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—first hole posted
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2014, 10:43:26 PM »

Sorry to be late on a reply.  I happen to believe that the first hole is among the most important as it introduces the course to the golfer.  By happenstance I recently found this piece by another GCAer who, unlike me, is paid to put his thinking on the ground.

http://adventuresingca.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-first-hole.html

How could the approach on the first hole be friendlier?  Well, we agree that the drive requires neither extraordinary length or accuracy.  Yet, it is the #5 handicap hole on the course.  This must mean that the approach and/or the green complex are very difficult.  IMO, they are, particularly for being right out of the box.  BTW, I took the first 20 scorecards out of my 2014 box and the average hole handicap for the first hole was just under 10.  While mine was hardly a scientific sampling, I suspect that if I increased the sample size to the last 100 different courses I played, Bh's #1 would place in the top 10-20 in terms of relative difficulty. 

As to whether it is a "design flaw", I didn't allege that- perhaps Lester likes to get the golfer's blood flowing from the outset.  I like uneven lies and elevation changes which Bh has in spades throughout the course.  However, if it was just a matter of hitting one more club on the approach (or a solid drive on a better line), I would be playing at a much higher level and we wouldn't be having this discussion here.  That Lester had to come back and ring the front of the green suggests that things didn't come out like he planned (which is often the rule in golf course design rather than the exception, and why Ross and Dye earned their reputations for tinkering with what became their best work).

Nice thread thus far.  I tend to prefer courses that minimize forced carries, keep the native vegetation well away from the playing areas, and are walkable.  That I came away after two rounds at Bh with very good impressions of the course speaks to its great beauty, challenge, and the nice people there.  As I recall, I botched the 18th hole to allow a certain opponent from the North to prevail.  I am keeping my ammunition dry until we get there.


Lou -

Great thoughts and I definitely respect your perspective about the expectations / demands of a first hole. 

Like you alluded, there are elements of Ballyhack that wouldn't normally fit into my ideal. However, I love the course so much, which is a testament to how great the design is and how fun it is to play. 

I didn't comment on it earlier, but I was very happy to see that Tommy's first pictures captured the vistas you encounter en route to the first  tee.  That is an integral part of the experience at Ballyhack.  The first time I crossed Pitzer Road, I was in awe by the sensation of the front nine.  "Mystical" was the only adjective I could come up with that did it justice.

Jim Sherma

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2014, 09:07:11 AM »

You will note that I circled a very small bay in the greenside bunker.  This is for Jim Sherma since he had a bad experience with this bay in October.  The bay is so narrow that it is almost impossible to take a normal stance or downswing, and it almost an unplayable lie (think of it as a very small pond).  There are several of these extreme lies scattered among the bunkers at Ballyhack which can lead to some significant muttering.  Over the years, I have developed a list of bunkers at Ballyhack I want to avoid at all costs simply for this potential rub-of-the-green. 

Perhaps Jim or Carl may want to take this opportunity to expound upon the bunkers as a punitive hazard at Ballyhack.


Kevin - thanks for bringing this up. I will gladly chime in as I really thought there was a capricious nature to the bunker edges, this one being one of the specific events. I have found that many of the frilly edged neoclassical bunkers around have this nature and it is not specific to Ballyhack.

The cape in question that Kevin noted is shown below:



I came up short of the green and landed above the bunker with a wedge and bounced/rolled back into this cape. The slope of the sand made the ball roll down and up against the back wall (maybe a 2 or 3 inch sharp edge) into an effectively unplayable lie. The penalty for a slight miss felt very random as being a foot or two left or right would have seen the ball miss the back wall and end up either in the flat of the bunker or in rough above/along the bunker. In this case the issue seemed to be that the sand in the cape was on a slope and the back edge of the cape cut across the slope meaning that any ball that ended up in the cape almost had to roll back against the wall leaving an unplayable lie.

I had a stretch of holes where I either missed right along the bunker edges or had balls roll up against the edges. Many of them ended up with severe penalties if not outright unplayable lies and no real chance for recovery options where a better player can use his skills. If you were to just dig out little water pots around the edges of the bunkers and call them water bunkers you would be vilified. Effectively this is what these types of bunker edges can play as.

I am not a card and pencil guy focused purely on scoring and I really enjoy some random elements to the game. At the same time but I also question maintenance/design choices that create huge binary differences in outcomes for very minor differences in execution. 

Carl Rogers

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2014, 01:19:00 PM »
My view of the bunkers go back to a previous comment about the need for a 64 degree wedge and also, the, in my view, excessively penal nature of the bunker edges.  Stay away from all bunkers at Ballyhack.  (see comment below on the 8th hole bunkers)

Hole 8:
I have no hope of hitting the right fairway, so I cannot comment on that option.

This left fairway has a definite tilt to the right ... see the first pic.  As a result, for me, the fairway plays narrower than it looks.  I have hit several pretty good drives down the middle only to kick right at a 45 degree angle behind the Sycamore tree (the hole's namesake).  Thus, I am 120 yards from the hole with no shot.  Preferred shot shape is down the middle with the some left spin.

However, if you can hit the fairway and have a clear shot, the wedge approach shot is fairly straight forward to a green that is wide but shallow.  I do not recall ever playing to a pin on the right, but the pin on the left is slightly downhill and not a hard shot.  The green has less slope or a less number of compounding slopes, so making a putt is possible.  As Jim and I have stated, the edges of the bunkers are a definite lost shot, but on this hole the bunkers are not as deep and have more flat lies to relative to other bunkers.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jim Sherma

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2014, 01:38:05 PM »
Carl - I really liked the sand in the bunkers and felt that the bunkers were not especially penal as long as you were truly in them and not up against the edges. There were bunkers that were certainly challenging in their depth and slope but not anything that was out of character for a challenging course. It was the potential for a lack of recovery options from the edges and transitions that is very difficult. As at Ballyneal this year I was relieved when I missed into the bottom and had a swing.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2014, 01:43:10 PM »
Kevin,

thanks for the reply. I do still wonder if any of the bunkers are really necessary from a playing strategy though do get your point on the visual impact. This green has to be the coolest green so far from the point of view of asking the golfer to imagine a very straight forward question about allowing fro the slope in a similar way to Gibraltar (Moortown, Leeds) and the 11th at Alwoodley.  I am afraid I am constantly asking if bunkers are really necessary whilst playing course as often GCAs use them as a visual prop.

Jon

From a purely aethestic standpoint, it's obviously a beautiful place, but I think the prettiest picture of many of the holes is from the green looking backward, where the bunkers are less visible.  (We rarely get backward-looking pictures on course tours, so I wonder if this isn't unique to Ballyhack, we just don't see many such pics.)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 02:19:58 PM by Carl Nichols »

Jon Cavalier

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—seventh hole posted
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2014, 02:18:06 PM »
Kevin,

thanks for the reply. I do still wonder if any of the bunkers are really necessary from a playing strategy though do get your point on the visual impact. This green has to be the coolest green so far from the point of view of asking the golfer to imagine a very straight forward question about allowing fro the slope in a similar way to Gibraltar (Moortown, Leeds) and the 11th at Alwoodley.  I am afraid I am constantly asking if bunkers are really necessary whilst playing course as often GCAs use them as a visual prop.

Jon

From a purely aethestic standpoint, it's an obviously beautiful place, but I think the prettiest picture of many of the holes is from the green looking backward, where the bunkers are less visible.  (We rarely get backward-looking pictures on course tours, so I wonder if this isn't unique to Ballyhack, we just don't see many such pics.)

I completely agree:







« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 02:24:32 PM by Jon Cavalier »
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Jason Topp

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2014, 02:22:56 PM »
Would 8 be a better hole without the tree guarding the right side of the left fairway?

Scott Weersing

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2014, 03:01:40 PM »
Here's the aerial of the 8th hole for reference:



For me, the difficulty of this hole has always been trusting the width of the fairway on the left side.  From the tee, it looks so much narrower than it is in reality.  Looking at the above, you see the "orange" width of the fairway (~25 yards) from the tee, but the actual width ("blue") is closer to 50 yards.

What makes the tee shot feel narrower is the fact that the left fairway slopes severely from left to right.  If you don't hit your tee shot with any drive, it can kick across the entire width of the fairway (e.g a ball landing on the left side oft he orange stripe could end up in the right rough if the ball flight is not strong).

From the above, the left tee shot is ~260 yards (from the Ballyhack - 350 yard tees).  To the right, you need to carry ~230 yards to reach the fairway.  On the right side, there is a severe right-to-left slope which will help you back towards the fairway.  I have tried this route many times, but if you are not confident with the 40-60 yard partial wedge, this is not the route for you. 

I am not good at this partial shot, but unfortunately for me, I still struggle getting over the mental block of taking an aggressive swing at the left fairway, so I typically play for the right landing zone and take my chances. This seems a little counterintuitive because the right fairway is almost completely obscured.  It's odd, because I'm more confident in the width of the right FW knowing it's large but obscured, but I can't believe the left is bigger that the 25 yards it shows me. 

You will note that I circled a very small bay in the greenside bunker.  This is for Jim Sherma since he had a bad experience with this bay in October.  The bay is so narrow that it is almost impossible to take a normal stance or downswing, and it almost an unplayable lie (think of it as a very small pond).  There are several of these extreme lies scattered among the bunkers at Ballyhack which can lead to some significant muttering.  Over the years, I have developed a list of bunkers at Ballyhack I want to avoid at all costs simply for this potential rub-of-the-green. 

Perhaps Jim or Carl may want to take this opportunity to expound upon the bunkers as a punitive hazard at Ballyhack.


Here is an interesting tidbit about the 8th fairway. If you look at the image where the orange line is, this is mowed as fairway but it is not actually fairway because of its slope. If you land the ball near the bunker, then it will roll right and end up in the rough. You are then blocked out by the tree.

So the playable fairway does not start until after the bunker.

This all goes back to playing the right set of tees and hitting the right club. You would think a drive to the left would be ok, but it needs to carry 25 yards past the bunker, or it will roll all the way to the right rough.

So would I level out the fairway? No, I would rather just grow a first cut of rough up so that a ball does not roll all the way across the fairway. But Ballyhack does not have a first cut of rough. It has fairway, two inch rough and then 6 inch rough.

Tim Pitner

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2014, 04:42:17 PM »
Would 8 be a better hole without the tree guarding the right side of the left fairway?

It's no fun to be stymied behind the tree but the hole offers an interesting choice--play to the left fairway which appears to be the safer play, but if you don't hit it left enough or far enough, you're penalized the most, or play to the right fairway which is obscured and appears to be the riskier shot, but you can avoid the tree and have an angle for your second shot that opens up the green (it's not as shallow as from the left).  I never tried the right fairway; I play a draw so the tee shot to the left fairway felt comfortable to me.  I can see an argument that the penalty for a marginal shot to the left fairway is too severe. 

Jason Thurman

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2014, 04:59:51 PM »
The discussion of the bunker shapes makes me think of what might be the most discussion-worthy aspect of Ballyhack - the balance between aesthetics and playability.

Like Jim, I have been in the "fingers" of the bunkers at Ballyhack and had virtually no shot to advance the ball. From one of the fairway bunkers at 10, I actually had to play out sideways further into the rough as I couldn't get a stance and swing in any other direction. It's a pretty severe penalty on a course that doesn't lack for severe penalties.

At the same time, the rugged shaping of the bunkers also fits the site well and is a big part of how the course's aesthetic defines itself. They're stunningly presented, but arguably push the boundaries of playability from certain lies and locations. Of course, you always have the option of just staying out of them and, to be fair, some of the bunkers are far riskier than others when it comes to the probability of catching an awful lie.

Ballyhack, with its stunning surroundings, open vistas, and superb shaping, is as handsome a course as I've played. Many of the same features that make it beautiful also make it very difficult, and it feels like a course that walks the edge between beauty and penalty on a frequent basis.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2014, 06:15:24 PM »
For me the drive on eight is one of the more difficult ones.  If I play it back at te 350 tees I have a difficult time driving the ball far enough to get past the left to right slope that takes the ball to the right rough.  I'd like to see some of the slope taken out.  As it stands now I just tee it up from the 319 yard tees.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Carl Rogers

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2014, 06:18:20 PM »
Would 8 be a better hole without the tree guarding the right side of the left fairway?
that tree is the hole's namesake, "Sycamore"
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

JBovay

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2014, 09:52:37 PM »
Kevin, Scott, Tim:

Great analysis of the eighth. Each time I played it, knowing that I have a tendency to push lay-up shots, I aimed right with tolerable success. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far is that even shots played to the right fairway and pushed seem likely to bounce off the hillside into the fairway. The right fairway looks riskier but finding the fairway is the easy part. The risk lies in facing the dreaded 60-yard approach shot.

I think the hole will still play essentially the same even if the sycamore one day dies.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2014, 10:59:24 PM »
The tree is critically important to the hole.  It influences any tee shot that isn't hit far enough (as does the hazard that encroaches on the right).  The tee shot requires the correct line (just inside the left-hand fairway bunker); any shot hit down the middle must carry a greater distance than most players realize to avoid the right bounce.

The approach plays short.  The back bunker gets far more action than most.

Incidentally, there are far more birdies made from the left hand fairway than right.

Lester has some interesting ideas for this hole as time makes erosion less of an issue.

WW

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2014, 11:01:09 PM »
Earlier this year, after failing to pull off a shot through the Sycamore's branches, a playing companion remarked earlier this year: That tree is 90% tree.

The leaves on that particular plant are particularly large; they tend to deflect almost any shot attempted through it.

WW

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—eighth hole posted
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2014, 11:31:00 PM »
I've hit several drives on 8 that I thought were going to be in fine shape only to discover otherwise -but I never thought the slope of the left fairway was too extreme until this year at the George. From the very back tee I yanked my drive into the left bunker and unfortunately drew a Sherma- lie up against the front lip. My only play was to take my medicine and  explode out into the fairway a couple yards in front of the bunker. The ball landed gently at the left edge of the fairway- and trickled all the way into the right rough under namesake tree. I have a hard time understanding how that would be the desired design intent.  Figuring a way to soften that slope would be a good thing for the hole.

Maybe the most attractive greensite on the course.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Ballyhack GC hole by hole—ninth hole posted
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2014, 08:28:03 AM »
#9 546, 530, 485, 458

Number nine is a great finisher to a wonderful opening nine holes.  Each hole is unique, yet they complement one another.  The course offers exceptional quality golf that requires thought, execution, and imagination.  Number nine is a good finisher where the player thinks birdie.  The landing areas are plenty wide but try not to stray to far afield.  

As you walk up a steep slope from eight the vista opens up and holes eight, four, and seven, with six and one in the distance are quite visible.

Here is looking across the eighth fairway to number four.


Looking back toward eight tee with seven and six in the distance. The ninth fairway is to the left.




The tee shot.  At first I found the tee shot a little daunting with the step hill and native grass area on the right.  I’d aim down the right and try to hit a little hook so I wouldn’t block it right.  It’s not the best strategy.  The landing area flows left to right.  If, however, you hit the tee shot a little left, the slope of the land will funnel the ball toward the right.  The key here is distance.  Some longer hitters do not like the first shot because it takes driver out of there hands.  Indeed the same holds true for me from the middle tee, unless I aim left and try to hit something left to right.  The bunker can be in play if the ball travels too far.




You will notice a strip of land to the left of the bunker.  I have seen guys aim of there, but it is pretty risky.  From that point some guys get close in two.  I played with one guy who just blew it past the bunker and was left with an iron to the green, but he wasn’t human.


The best place to be for the second shot is to the right of the bunker.  The hole opens up and the second shot is much easier.  Hitting it too far right, though, flirts with the slope and native area on the right.  Hitting the right side of the fairway requires nerve and confidence.


Hit is just short of the bunker and this is the blind view of the second shot.  The shot from this area is pretty intimidating for me.  The landing area is miles wide but if I’m not confident and guard against going right I can pull it a little left.  


The landing area for the second shot slopes left to right from the left half of the fairway.  Even shots that land in the rough can bounce back into the fairway. The middle and right side are relatively flat.  There is even an alternate fairway to the right that will save a shot from perdition.  It is in view here.


The second shot should be easy, but the intimidation factor is large.  Or maybe it is just me.  Nonetheless, hit a good shot and the third shot is anywhere from 100 to 30 yards from glory.  Certainly birdie territory.


Looking back from the right side of the fairway.  Beauty is everywhere and vistas like this are part of the reward of playing there.




The first time I played the course, I thought Lester must have worn out a bulldozer.  The more I play it the better I understand that for the most part he just leveled some places off.  I don’t know if it qualifies as “minimalism” but the course was not shaped to death.  It is very natural.


« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 08:32:13 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
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