BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Wade Whitehead]

Two generally plays downwind (and often HARD downwind).  The fairway bunkers form a diagonal that requires the player to pick a line carefully.  At least one of the bunkers is in play for almost any player from any tee.

The lion's mouth bunker in front of the green influences any approach.  Lies in front of the green tend to be very tight.

The second is the player's introduction to Ballyhack's multiple half-par holes and was the only hole to play under par during the 2014 Virginia State Open.

The view from the tee really is one of golf's great looks.  It's a wow moment during every round.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Jim: Actually, the lie next to the fairway bunkers can be preferable to actually finding the sand.

Grass around many of the bunkers is maintained at a lower height than it once was.  Native grasses originally pervaded bunker surrounds (including the fairway bunkers on #2) but the grass is now maintained at a much more playable cut.

I have seen players reach the putting surface from the rough around the fairway bunkers but I have never seen a ball played from the bunkers themselves end up on the green.

Perhaps Lester can speak to Lance's excellent question: Was mowing the fairway cut all the way to the bunkers ever a consideration?

WW

[Kevin Lynch]

I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal.  Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter? 

One is much more likely to lose a ball or card an X at Ballyhack than at Ballyneal, in my view.  I think Carl overstates his case a bit, but Ballyhack deserves its high slope.  It is certainly a very fun match play course.

Ballyhack can certainly bring the volatility in scoring which can be disconcerting in a stroke play format.  But good scores can be had even for a mid handicap.  My index floats between 9 & 10 (12-13 course handicap at Ballyhack), but I've posted several sub-40 nines at Ballyhack.  It's just difficult to avoid severe punishment for 18 holes.  

Put another way, the individual shot demands are not unreasonable, but loose swings get punished and can tend to compound.  Using #1 as an example, it's a 3 wood / 8/9 iron for me, which isn't unrealistically demanding.  But catch that approach a little heavy, and you can bring 6 into play from the false-front collection area.  Overclub too much to get over the false front, and the pitch from just over the green is pretty frightening as well.  You're always riding the edge, but it's not unfair in any way.

[Kevin Lynch]

Jim: Actually, the lie next to the fairway bunkers can be preferable to actually finding the sand.

Grass around many of the bunkers is maintained at a lower height than it once was.  Native grasses originally pervaded bunker surrounds (including the fairway bunkers on #2) but the grass is now maintained at a much more playable cut.

I have seen players reach the putting surface from the rough around the fairway bunkers but I have never seen a ball played from the bunkers themselves end up on the green.

Perhaps Lester can speak to Lance's excellent question: Was mowing the fairway cut all the way to the bunkers ever a consideration?

WW

I would agree with Wade on this one (unless Jim is recalling the maintenance from his first visit in 2013).   In prior years, there were times when being a few feet from the sand was nasty, but I think the general presentation this year was much more favorable (perhaps even leading to flier lies).  Plus, the sand at Ballyhack tends to be softer and I struggle hitting longer shots from the fairway traps). 

[Kevin Lynch]

Like most everyone else, I love the 2nd hole and the myriad of ways it can be attacked.  Drives placed between the 2nd and 3rd bunker need to account for the sharp right kick.  What's even more surprising is how far a ball played left of all three bunkers will run out.

I generally prefer approaching from the right side.  Even though it will be visually obscured, I feel more comfortable hitting at the target from an angle (across the corner rough / bunkers) rather than straight down the fairway (from Tommy's picture).  Plus, I've found that lies on the left side are often slightly downhill, while lies from the right are uphill.

When I first played this hole, I thought that the worst place was in the greenside bunker.  Over the years, I've discovered that being 10-20 yards short of the bunker is exponentially worse.  As Wade and Tommy alluded, the tight lies short of the green make for very difficult pitches.  Sometimes you have to accept that's it's better to accept a long two putt for par than risk a big number trying to leave a short birdie effort.


EDIT:  Adding in the 2nd Hole aerial after the fact:



The red drive was added to show how much you need to account for the slope of the landing area between the bunkers.

With the huge greenside bunker, you really need to plan quite a bit for your angles of approach.  This is especially true if you try to layup inside of 100 yards, as it is hard to generate the spin necessary to get close if you're on the opposite side of the fairway.  I always hope to hit a little bump and run when I can't get home in 2, but that's only an option if I'm well positioned.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Looking back from just short of the second green.

[Chris DeNigris]

Great hole- one of my favorite par 5s anywhere. Starts a theme on the par 5s- easy/fun tee shot followed by a really nasty 2nd shot with a lot of options.  To me this is the signature hole at BH.  Interesting that hardly any drives manage to find the gnarly trio of bunkers. The contours seem to deflect balls into nice resting places. So much bad can happen on the 2nd shot. Left is brutal and rights no picnic. One of my goals is to make birdie from the 3rd teebox. The green seems benign- no major internal contours (saving them up for around the corner)- but there are some potentially tragic pins (front left). Great start to a great day.

[Lou_Duran]

Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway.  The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!

There was a recent  change  in maintenance to avoid the severe roll-back.  There is now a cut of rough across the fairway roughly 5-10 yards short of the green. I think this was a significant improvement.  Last year, all balls accumulated into the same small area and were usually stopped by a divot, making for a very difficult recovery.  Now, they still move towards the same general area, but don't tend to end in a hole.
still a penalty for getting caught on the false front, but it doesn't tend to compound like it did in the past. 

Bhack's 1 gave me a similar feeling on the first play as Black Mesa's.    I don't give either course a high mark for its introductory hole, though Bh's at least is representative of what's to come.

It is true that the tee shot is not unduly demanding for a starting hole after playing it for the first time.  The approach to the green, however, could be much friendlier.  My recollection is that the second shot, though with a short iron or wedge, is considerably uphill.  Coupled with the severe false front and that many if not most players haven't loosened up yet, the ball is likely to come up considerably short, often into a minefield of divots.  The subsequent pitch is no picnic, and even if you get it on the green, the fun is just beginning.  A starting hole such as this one on a busy course would set the tee sheet back.  With a 9-iron approach from the fairway on the first day and a wedge on the second, both hit reasonably well for me, I am a combined 3-over on that hole.

I can't picture a strip of rough across the fairway.  Wouldn't a bench in the slope drained laterally (to the W as I recall) work better?

In defense of #1, #2 is a fun hole where three well hit shots can redeem the start of the round. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Lou, Lester installed a ring of blue grass (?) rough around the fringe of the green.  Balls that come off the false front are stopped from going very far and they do not all gather in one spot.  I think one of the mistakes players make is to take the false front on.  If I am not warmed up properly I will aim for the right part of the green where the false front does not affect the shot.  It generally leaves a longer putt, but at least it is a putt.

[Tommy Williamsen]

scorecard

[Tommy Williamsen]

#3  par three--251, 211, 174, 143, 111

The third hole has one of the wilder greens on the course and has innumerable pin placements that range from relatively benign to fiendish.  Slope and undulation are difficult to see on pictures but this green has as much movement as any on the course.

View from up near the second green.


From the tee.  The green slopes toward the front on the right side and there is a bailout area short and right of the green.






In the middle back is a shelf that is the flattest spot on the green.  Over the bunker is a bowl.  Any shot close will feed down to the pin.  My wife left her tee shot hanging on the lip!


This photo gives a good idea of the rise on the front right.  The pin is on that flat shelf.


The bunkers on this hole are very playable, which is good. The hole doesn’t need to be any harder.

[Chris DeToro]

scorecard

What are the slope and course ratings?

[Jason Thurman]

Maybe I just haven't played the course enough, but I don't find anything about the first hole to be over the top. I actually think it's as much a "firm handshake" hole as there is at Ballyhack.

Considering the difficulty of the course and how quickly it could get out of hand from the wrong set of tees, is it a good thing that the first hole involves a forced carry? I think it's the kind of feature that immediately forces players to consider their own abilities and more carefully judge the tees they've chosen and whether they should reconsider if they've been too ambitious, which is probably beneficial for their enjoyment and also for pace of play.


The second is an excellent hole, as others have mentioned. I'll be interested to hear what others think of the third.

[Jim Sherma]

RE: Number 2

Wade and Kevin - I was referring to the bunker surrounds more in general than in terms of number 2's specifically. I agree in this case that being in the fairway bunkers will not allow any meaningful advancement. As a general rule I have found that being in the bunkers proper leaves a better chance of recovery than being along the edges. 2014 was less extreme than in 2013 although there is still a lot of potential grief along the edges. This is true not just of Ballyhack but other courses such as Ballyneal that have more "minimalist" and informal bunker edges.

Kevin - I also think the second on number 2 from the right side past the middle bunker is the preferred second shot compared to the left side of the fairway. It just sets up well for me. Saying that, I am not sure that having it makes up for the risk of taking on the bunkers.

The green is fairly benign. I think the play is to get as close as you can while preferably leaving yourself on the same side of the fairway as the pin is set that day. This leaves a little ground game 6 or 7-iron bump chip. If you do end up on the wrong side of the fairway taking on the bunker is not forced since a chip to the "wrong" side of the green should still leave you a reasonable two putt.

This green is really exposed to the wind and being able to keep shots down towards the ground is not a bad plan.

[Wade Whitehead]

The left side of the second green slopes away from the player.  While the green is less dramatic (in contour) it makes judging pace difficult.

The third is another half par hole.  Any player who takes eight shots combined on #2 and #3 is going to have a good day.

From the back tee to a back left pin, into the prevailing wind, the third can play 260+.  The fairway short and right of the green is there for a reason!

For future reference, if you stand on the third tee and don't feel a breeze, it's into your face.  The hillside to the left blocks the wind, which blows above the trees and over the third pinflag (which rarely moves at all).

WW

[Carl Nichols]

Maybe I just haven't played the course enough, but I don't find anything about the first hole to be over the top. I actually think it's as much a "firm handshake" hole as there is at Ballyhack.

To be clear about my comments, they weren't about the difficulty of the first hole, but about the number of different things going on (visually at least)....

[Carl Rogers]

Big picture comment:  My comments and observations are based on 3 years of playing in the George Cup and one round when the course was less than a year old when a trailer was the clubhouse.  I have seen players of varying ability play the course.
Third Hole:
The Third Hole is one of the more what I would call a more straight forward but very hard hole.  If you play from the correct tee (not from the 251 tee) and hit the correct club slightly under the hole, par is possible.  However, the overly aggressive or the hole high but wide (particularly left), the huge green slopes put a big number in play.

[Tommy Williamsen]

#4 par four--467,447,411,379

The fourth hole is the most difficult hole on the course for me.  I make more bogies here than any other hole.  In fact, I make more doubles here than any other hole. That shouldn’t be surprising because it is the number one handicap hole as well.  On most of the holes I will jump back and forth between tee markers.  One of the most fun things to do at Ballyhack is to play from different tees.  I had a friend at the course last week.  We played 72 holes in two days.  We never chose the same set of tees for the entire round.  Instead we jumped back and forth.  Not here.  He always played the hole at 379 yards and I at 411.  I have played the hole further back but it becomes a par five for me.  The key to this hole is the tee shot.  Hit a good one and you can have a short iron into the green.  Hit one off line and you have an easy bogey.  The fairway has a strip of rough bisecting it in half.  In essence there are two fairways, an upper and a lower.

This is a view from the right side of the fairway (actually, near the second green).  The upper fairway is the target, unless you can just bomb it over the nob in the center of the fairway/rough.  A well struck ball will bound down to the bottom of the fairway and some 150 yards from glory.  If, however, a tee ball is hooking it might go through the fairway into the rough and you have to decide either to lay up or chance hitting the shot over a large ravine. The lower fairway is more level than it appears on this photo and often a ball that is hit in the strip of rough will trundle down to the lower fairway.


I will aim at the white house or the nob in the fairway.  If I hit is well I can carry the nob.  Periodically I will lay back and leave myself 190 yards or so and not take the risk of running through the fairway.  It is no bargain, however, because the shot into the green is pretty daunting.




Miss the fairway into the middle rough and you pitch out.


If you lay back this is the shot that is faced.


Hit a good drive and the second shot is anywhere from 160 to 130 yards.  I think it is the most exciting shot on the golf course.  The green has redan qualities.  The green runs from right to left.  The pin that is right and back is on a shelf, which makes a birdie putt makeable.  For me it is the easiest pin.  I can fly it just short of the green and let it bounce up.  The pin that is left and long is tricky.  Flying it all the way to the hole is not a shot I have.  I have to hit the shot to the front of the green and let the slope take it to the hole.






I don’t think I have birdied the hole more than a handful of times.  I have made many more doubles than birdies.  When I walk off with a par I am thrilled.  

Looking back and remembering the bloodbath that transpired.

[Carl Rogers]

Tommy, I agree with your comments.  How can one get a double on this hole?  Very easy .... and not hit really bad shots.

I find the tee shot quite befuddling as, for me, a well struck drive may bound around all over the place (see the amount of terrain movement in the middle of the different slivers of fairways) and I don't have a shot.

If very lucky, and I have a straightforward approach shot, I find that the landing area just to hit the green, never mind where the pin is, very small.  Being very short or very long is very easy and a problematic up and down because there is an up and over domed 40 or 50 foot shot at a very high green speed.

[JBovay]

Regarding the tee shot on #2: I agree with Jim S's comments. Going left of the left bunker will leave you a longer approach, but it is from a flattish lie and leaves you with a clear view of the green. Going right of it [over the center bunker] and hitting a perfect shot may leave you closer, but the margin for error is slim, because it brings into play the left and center bunkers and also the bowl past and right of the center bunker, from where the second shot is completely blind.

It's a testament to Lester's strategic design that (by my count) two of you guys wrote that you prefer shots from the right side, even though I wouldn't intentionally hit it there myself.

For the third shot on #2, yes, you'll have a tricky pitch from a tight lie with little room for error and death awaiting a pull or a ball that carries the green.

#4 is a scary and confusing tee shot for me. The tee shot is effectively quite narrow unless you plan on getting it past the knoll and into the lower fairway. Just curious, what's the justification for the strip of rough in the middle? Is it because the slope is too steep for mowers? Simply to add complexity to the hole? Or to slow down balls that might otherwise hit the hill and then bound into the ravine? (If the latter, it certainly doesn't stop all balls from finding that fate.)

Chris: here are the ratings and slopes:
76.1/155
73.5/152
71.0/146
68.7/139
for women:
74.8/147
72.5/144

[Brad Hill]

The bisecting rough strip on the fourth seems a bit odd, as it most likely penalizes a good drive. I also wonder what the thoughts were behind this? Missing right looks terrible. To me, either softening the middle slope or widening one of the fairways would optimize a very visually rewarding approach. I'm guessing a lot of players wish they had a clean approach after thinking they hit a good drive.

Great photos and tour so far. I look forward to seeing the rest.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The bisecting rough strip on the fourth seems a bit odd, as it most likely penalizes a good drive. I also wonder what the thoughts were behind this? Missing right looks terrible. To me, either softening the middle slope or widening one of the fairways would optimize a very visually rewarding approach. I'm guessing a lot of players wish they had a clean approach after thinking they hit a good drive.

Great photos and tour so far. I look forward to seeing the rest.

I'd like Lester to pipe in at this time.  I had a conversation with him last week and specifically asked him about the center strip of rough. If I understood him correctly he said that it may come out and become all fairway.

[Wade Whitehead]

The genius of the fourth hole is its switchback feature.  Most architects would have routed it along one side of the hazard or another; Lester takes it down the left side, then across to the right.  The tee shot moves from left to right, but the approach moves from right to left.  Without realizing it, most players are made uncomfortable by this simple - but important - decision.

In my experience, the strip of rough serves a couple of purposes.  It provides a clear marker for the ideal line (left).  It also keeps balls that land in that area from bounding right into the hazard.  The right sliver of fairway gets lots of comments, but I often react the same way I do when folks criticize the short porch on #15: Pretend it isn't there.  In day to day play, there is an occasional loose shot that ends up on the right section; the good break rewards the player with an ideal angle, especially to the back left pin that gives Tommy fits.

On #4, Lester positioned a centerline fairway bunker that indicates the perfect line from the tee.  Many players overlook it because they are staring down the pin (400+ yards away!).  The line of charm is alive and well at Ballyhack.

The hole is tough as nails.  It played as the hardest hole on the golf course in the State Open.  Still, I'm convinced: Tell your group it's a par four and everyone will make a six; tell them it's a par five and they'll make fives at worst.

So much more to say about this hole, but I'll click Post and read for a bit.

WW

[Kevin Lynch]

It is true that the tee shot is not unduly demanding for a starting hole after playing it for the first time.  The approach to the green, however, could be much friendlier.  My recollection is that the second shot, though with a short iron or wedge, is considerably uphill.  Coupled with the severe false front and that many if not most players haven't loosened up yet, the ball is likely to come up considerably short, often into a minefield of divots.  The subsequent pitch is no picnic, and even if you get it on the green, the fun is just beginning.  A starting hole such as this one on a busy course would set the tee sheet back.  With a 9-iron approach from the fairway on the first day and a wedge on the second, both hit reasonably well for me, I am a combined 3-over on that hole.

I'm not sure I understand the comment that the approach could be friendlier.  It's a short shot from a very wide fairway.  You said that you struck a 9 iron and wedge reasonably well but were 3 over on the hole.  Perhaps you should have struck a 9 iron or 8 iron reasonably well (which isn't an onerous demand, even for the first shot of the day).  I don't see how asking a player to adjust for a considerable incline is a design flaw in any way.  To the contrary, I find these things interesting and an asset for the hole. 

The criticism of the minefield of divots was a fair one, as the balls tended to collect to the area front left, and if the pin was left, you had to get the 3rd shot up and over the bunker (an unfair ask from a divot).  I would need to be overly aggressive simply to dig the ball out and would often run just over the green, leaving a very difficult downhill chip.  However, as Tommy & I mentioned, that has been addressed and the slight cushion of rough now allows you get under the ball and have a more reasonable recovery attempt (even bringing in the possibility of playing a shot off the high back bank of the green).

I just find some of the criticisms of the 1st hole to be a bit misguided. 

- The drive gets in people's heads because of the visual, but it's really not all that long of a shot. I've overcooked a draw on that one to discover there's a lot of room left on that fairway.  If you think a forced driver carry to start the day is a bit much, it can still be easily cleared with a 3 wood or hybrid (assuming you're not biting off too much tee) and still leave a reasonably short approach.

- I think the approach gets criticized simply because so many people can't believe they took a double from the middle of the fairway with a wedge or 9 iron in their hands.

Like I said, I think the former divot minefield was a valid criticism, but that doesn't mean the false front is a bad feature. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Regarding the tee shot on #2: I agree with Jim S's comments. Going left of the left bunker will leave you a longer approach, but it is from a flattish lie and leaves you with a clear view of the green. Going right of it [over the center bunker] and hitting a perfect shot may leave you closer, but the margin for error is slim, because it brings into play the left and center bunkers and also the bowl past and right of the center bunker, from where the second shot is completely blind.

It's a testament to Lester's strategic design that (by my count) two of you guys wrote that you prefer shots from the right side, even though I wouldn't intentionally hit it there myself.

Actually, in my experience, playing to the left doesn't necessarily leave a longer approach, simply because the ball will run out further from landing on a flat lie rather than hitting into the severe slopes to the right.  From the same tees at the last George Cup, I hit a slight pull which ran out and left me 210 in from the "upper left" fairway, whereas a better struck drive to the right was still 220 out (but I'd still rather have the longer approach because I prefer hitting shots on angles (and can allow for some ball shaping) than trying to hit a straight ball.

But, as you said, the beauty is that you have options to play to your own personal preference, or adjust your lines based on wind conditions, tee positioning, pin placement, etc.  It 's simply one of the best par 5s I've played.