BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Tommy Williamsen]

About four years ago I was on a golf trip with four friends.  We were touring western Virginia and West Virginia.  Outside Roanoke we played a wild and outrageous golf course.  It had recently opened and was still a little rough around the edges, but we were awed by its natural beauty and stunned by the quality golf that ran throughout its undulating 18 holes.  The golf course is laid out on 370 acres of heaving and, for the most part, treeless holes.  Now some four years on, Ballyhack has matured into an outstanding club and exceptional course.   Those lucky enough to have played it will not soon forget its large turbulent greens or the oversized fairways and bunkers.  Lester George’s daring design rewards good shots but a wayward shot will be chastened.  Because Ballyhack is on such a large piece of ground the scale is enormous and grand.

Wade Whitehead and I, with Lester George chiming in here and there, will do a hole-by-hole tour of the course.  It should be interesting because Wade and I play very different games.  I am short off the tee and old.  Wade is long and young.  I play to a six and Wade is about a one. 



Ballyhack has seven cottages and the welcoming clubhouse is a short cart ride away. Each cottage sleeps four.






The trip to the first tee lets the player know what is in store as most of the front nine is in view. 




This view looks back on nine and on the left are seven and eight.


This view is of the par four sixth.


Hole 1: par four--249 from forward tees and 399 from back tees. 321 and 349 from the tees most use. Plays uphill.
The first hole looks much more daunting than it is.  But that is true of much of the course.  The carry is not nearly as long as it looks and the fairway is wide.  If, however, you are too far right and short the second shot is blind.  I usually try to hit it to the middle right for the best angle, especially if the flag is back left.


The look back toward the tee from the landing area.


The second shot is decidedly uphill and the green has a large false front.  The top of pin is barely visible on the left side of the picture.  The right side does not have as large a false front and I will sometimes hit it there but it leaves a long putt.  I usually hit three more clubs than the yardage would dictate.  I don’t get the ball as high as I used to, and if I go towards the left side of the green it is a more difficult shot for me.


You have to be pretty far afield to be in this bunker, but my buddy was a daring explorer this day.


Like most greens complexes, there is a lot of movement, undulation, and slope.






The look back is just splendid.


The walk to the next tee gives the player a glimpse of what is to come.  In view here is the fifth green, the sixth fairway below, and the ninth fairway.

[Carl Rogers]

As I am at some level the instigator of this thread, you could not expect me to remain siient.  See other Ballyhack thread.  "...what do you care to measure?..."

Will there be any overarching themes of this thread? Suggestion:
- The interface of the visuals versus how does the shot play and with that local knowledge - comfort level and ability level.
For me, I play to a shortish hitting 5.9 index, comfort-confidence level with the shot that is presented is a constant problem for me at Ballyhack.  If I could play there twice a month, I think that I could over time overcome that to a point. This issue presents itself no more so than the first hole.

Tommy, I hope your pictures show a lot of tee & fairway eye level views.

I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.

[Jim Sherma]

Agree that the drive is less challenging than it is visually intimidating. I use a three wood and have hit the fairway all 6 times I have played it. There is a bowl up along the right side of the fairway that seems to be where I usually end up. There really seems to be no reason to try to get past it as the fairway just narrows and becomes more steep.

I find the first green to be very challenging. Once you realize that there is a large false front element to the front third to half of the green and you need to hit enough club to get it to stay back there the challenge becomes a spine that separates the left and right sides of the back half of the green. Left-side pin placements are very challenging to putt to from across the ridge as everything is running away from you. However the visual from the fairway up to the left pins is blind over the greenside bunker and I have not gotten a good comfort as to how much room is over there. At the George Cup I hit this green on 4 of 5 rounds, always either along or to the right of the spine, and made par twice. Two three putts and a four putt going across the ridge to a left pin after hitting the first putt off the green trying to get past the pin so that I could have something uphill for my par putt.

[Chris DeToro]

I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.

Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this.  You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult

[Carl Rogers]

I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.

Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this.  You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult

Scroll back to the pic of the Tommy's friend in the bunker.  That bunker shot presents enormous problems both in direction and distance.   A shot short and the ball goes down the false front for 20 yards, long down a very steep slope in thick rough or left into an 8 foot deep bunker.  Any number of ways to put an 'X' on the card. If I hit it in that bunker, a shot 20 feet from the hole would be lucky and marvelous.  See my previous thread on Ballyhack recovery shots for double digit handicappers.  
Hole after hole has these problems.

[Jim Sherma]

I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.

Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this.  You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult

My game cycles in the 3-5 index range and I find Ballyhack to be a very difficult course to score on for a full round. Saying that, it is one of if not the most fun very difficult course that I have played. Pretty much every shot can jump up and bite you and while I've made it around the course a few times without losing a ball I admittedly was hitting the ball fairly well. I think short and crooked would be a very bad combination.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.

Wow, I'd be curious to hear others' takes on this.  You mention being a single digit cap, so this course must be seriously difficult

Chris, no one will dispute that Ballyhack is a difficult course and that a double is always around the corner.  Last week I was one over standing in the middle of the ninth fairway.  I made a triple.  I made two stupid decisions and paid the price.  Ballyhack requires a good assessment of what each player is capable of doing.  The course is much more playable than many think because the course can get into your head.  If you try to steer the ball around the course you're not gonna be happy. You have to think well and commit to your shots.  I know it sounds like a cliche, but it is true.

[Chris DeToro]

I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal.  Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter? 

[Tim Pitner]

I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal.  Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter? 

One is much more likely to lose a ball or card an X at Ballyhack than at Ballyneal, in my view.  I think Carl overstates his case a bit, but Ballyhack deserves its high slope.  It is certainly a very fun match play course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played Ballyneal and Kingsley.  Ballyhack is reminiscent of Kingsley a bit.  The terrain is similar and the look is similar.  Ballyneal is a little more forgiving off the tee but more punishing on the greens.  I don't like the epithet of "match play courses," but understand your comments.  For me the challenge is to keep my head for 18 holes.  When I do, I can score well.  When I overreach I score poorly. Everyday I have to ask myself, "What game do I bring to the course?"   It determines what I do.  For instance on the first hole my drives generally end up in similar places regardless of the state of my game.  I will usually have about 120 yards to the center of the green.  If I feel confident I'll go at the pin.  If not I will hit it out to the right side of the green where the false front is not so foreboding.  We have to do that on most courses, obviously. But at Ballyhack you have to be a realist to play well.

[Carl Nichols]

Some beautiful pics; can't wait to get down there.  Is there as much going on, visually, as it appears from a couple of the pictures of the first hole?  From the tee, there's a ravine, a snake/dragon-styled shaped bunker, a bunch of bunkers stuck up in the hill right, a potentially blind second shot, bunkers short of the green (including a pot-sized one), a fairway that ends before the green, and a bunker left of the green.  That's a lot of stuff going on.

[JC Jones]

I think there are a lot of courses you could say that about such as Kingsley and Ballyneal.  Is Ballyhack meant more for match play like the latter? 

I greatly enjoy Ballyhack and I do think Carl is exaggerating to make his point.  I am a double digit handicap and have scored really well at Ballyhack and also scored really poorly.  The comment regarding commitment to your shot and good decision making is spot on.  Ballyhack is intimidating but playable with good decision making.

As to the comparison with Kingsley, I think the comparison stops at aesthetics and even that is quite minor once you get beyond the hay.  I think a better comparison, architecturally, would be Olde Farm (though the property is less severe at Olde Farm).

[Bill_McBride]

Some beautiful pics; can't wait to get down there.  Is there as much going on, visually, as it appears from a couple of the pictures of the first hole?  From the tee, there's a ravine, a snake/dragon-styled shaped bunker, a bunch of bunkers stuck up in the hill right, a potentially blind second shot, bunkers short of the green (including a pot-sized one), a fairway that ends before the green, and a bunker left of the green.  That's a lot of stuff going on.

Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway.  The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!

[JC Jones]

Some beautiful pics; can't wait to get down there.  Is there as much going on, visually, as it appears from a couple of the pictures of the first hole?  From the tee, there's a ravine, a snake/dragon-styled shaped bunker, a bunch of bunkers stuck up in the hill right, a potentially blind second shot, bunkers short of the green (including a pot-sized one), a fairway that ends before the green, and a bunker left of the green.  That's a lot of stuff going on.

Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway.  The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!

I think the severity of the false front comes back to the decision making issue.  After one's first play of the hole, there is no reason not to take an extra half/full club and play to the back of the green or back fringe.  I think the difficulty of the first hole is overstated.  It is a ~180 yard carry from the blue tees to a 40+ yard wide fairway.

[Kevin Lynch]

EDIT: Adding in the aerial map of the property with routing,  The front 9 is north of Pitzer Road, while the back 9 is south.

Front Nine:




Back Nine:




Also, adding  a link to the Ballyhack website.  If you click on "Tour," this will give you 360 degree visuals from the tees, landing areas, and greens (along with some pro tips).  

http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com/

Not to mention a steep false front that can send you thirty yards back down the fairway.  The only time I played the hole, in the Dixie Cup, my bogey won the hole in a four ball match!

There was a recent  change  in maintenance to avoid the severe roll-back.  There is now a cut of rough across the fairway roughly 5-10 yards short of the green. I think this was a significant improvement.  Last year, all balls accumulated into the same small area and were usually stopped by a divot, making for a very difficult recovery.  Now, they still move towards the same general area, but don't tend to end in a hole.

It's still a penalty for getting caught on the false front, but it doesn't tend to compound like it did in the past.  

The one complimentary feature to the false front is the severe slope on the back of the green.  After getting caught by the front, you can usually throw your recovery deep and let it roll back towards the pin.


EDIT:  Adding in the aerial for Hole #1:



I added in the carry distances from the various tees.  Even from the tips, it is only 220, and that is from a very elevated tee.  But once you get to the lower 4 decks, if you don't carry the ravine, it's because you hit a very bad shot, not because of the distance requirement.

From the Ballyhack Tees (2nd longest), I drew in a 225-230 tee shot, which still leaves you in the 125 range.  It's definitely not an onerous hole, but just visually intimidating.

I also estimated the false front area (in red) and where most balls used to end up (in green).  Because this green area was such a divot minefield, the change I noted above was made.

[Wade Whitehead]

Haven't read any responses yet, but:

I believe the first shot at Ballyhack is the most exciting in golf.  It's epic (though imminently achievable by almost every player).

Even though it sits at a diagonal (a theme that Lester maximizes through the property), the first fairway is much closer and wider than the first-time player realizes.  The scar bunker and the lack of trees (and other familiar scale makers) can cause instant trepidation among first-timers.  I have listened to many players talk themselves out of a good shot before even addressing the ball.  In addition, repeated plays reveal that the line on #1 (as happens throughout the round) must be played to a distant target.  The greenside bunker provides the perfect line (which is unnoticed by 99% of players).  Still, a gentle handshake this is not!

The approach is difficult because any shot played to the front third of the green will be rejected.  A ball must by played to the back of the surface (which is why the bank behind the green is closely-mown).  Line is critical; Tommy points out that a shot to the right side can hold, but an approach to the left can find the greenside bunker, which presents very difficult recovery.  Line is critical, and the tip of the leaning tree in Tommy's approach shot is frequently the perfect aiming point.

The green is subtle and is generally read correctly by most players.  I see fewer three putts on the first green than just about any other.

#1 introduces the player to a difficult opening stretch of five holes (save, perhaps, for number 2) that will test both skill and resolve.  Players immediately realize that no shot can be overlooked and that Lester will position them precisely between disaster and glory as the day proceeds.

Another note: As the player journeys from the clubhouse to the first tee, seven of the opening nine holes are visible at once.  Very few golf courses reveal themselves so fully before the first shot is struck.

WW

[Chris DeNigris]

I like the 1st a lot- but I would like it even more if it wasn't the first.  Agree with JC that it's not as nasty as it looks, but it's no gentle handshake.  The mitigation of the false front penalty is a big help in playability.

I think Ballyhack has some interesting comparisons with Kingsley but maybe even more with Dismal White. All three are big, bold roller coaster rides.  What fun.

[Wade Whitehead]

From the first through the eighteenth, Ballyhack requires an aggressive swing at a conservative target.

Get this backwards and the golf course will punish you.

WW

[Joe Bausch]

Thanks in advance for this photo tour, TDub.  I've had Ballyhack on my radar for awhile now.

[JBovay]

Thanks for putting this together, Tommy, Wade, and Lester.

It's usually noted that elevation doesn't show up well in photographs. What's the change in elevation from the front of the fairway to the back of the green at the first?

Tommy's and Wade's comments about not trying to "steer the ball around the course" and about "players talking themselves out of hitting a good shot" ring true for certain double-digit handicappers (including me) on any course. I think the width of the playing corridors--essentially no trees in play on the property--make a good score at Ballyhack especially achievable for players who avoid these mental mistakes. While there are a lot of ways to lose your ball or otherwise make a double or more, there are also a lot of smart ways to play each hole.

Wade: I really enjoyed seeing the before/after photos during the George Cup. Would you be able to post these here?

[Tommy Williamsen]

#2 Par five 538, 514,487,463
I love the second hole.  Most players do.  Almost anyone can make a birdie.  Depending on skill and length number two can be played any number of ways.  For the most part there is little elevation change.  

Standing on the tee the fairway looks impossibly wide.  It is, but three bunkers determine which line to take.  I pretty much hit it left of the left bunker.  I usually get a flat lie, but a bunker can grab a less than stellar second shot.  It is not the best angle for a second shot.  Longer hitters can hit it over the middle bunker and have a relatively flat lie and have a good angle to go for the green.



This view is from the fifth green.  It displays the entire hole.  At the top right is the green with a bunker that fronts a very wide and relatively flat green.  It is a skyline green so the only thing a player sees one either the second or third shot is a flag and the deep bunker looming menacing the green.  It is possible to get home in two but you need to be on the correct side of the green or have a very lengthy eagle putt.  Miss the second shot just short of the green and you have a flop shop from a tight lie.



This is the sight from the middle bunker as a player prepares his second shot.  The bunker on the left makes the landing area look smaller than it really is.   In truth there is a lot of room from 100 yards in.


This picture was taken about 100 yards from the hole.  I seem to be here quite a bit.  I would rather have a 100 yard shot than 50 yards on this hole.  The lies here tend to be tight and, while I like my 54 and 60 degree wedges, I’d rather not have one on this hole.  The pin is left of the bunker.



This is from closer in.  


Looking back from just short of the green.

[Lance Rieber]

Man, the rough around the bunkers looks so lush. I would think that is a perfect place to cut fairway all the way to the edge to encourage the ball to find the hazard. Otherwise the hole looks very interesting. Looking forward to the rest of the course. Thanks

[Carl Rogers]

This is my favorite hole on the course .... very playable for all.  I aim to the left of the far left bunker and let the ball roll down hill between the bunkers.  The blind second shot does not bother me.  The green is huge, but must be hit, severe fall offs on 3 sides.

[Kevin Lynch]

As I am at some level the instigator of this thread, you could not expect me to remain siient.  See other Ballyhack thread.  "...what do you care to measure?..."

Will there be any overarching themes of this thread? Suggestion:
- The interface of the visuals versus how does the shot play and with that local knowledge - comfort level and ability level.
For me, I play to a shortish hitting 5.9 index, comfort-confidence level with the shot that is presented is a constant problem for me at Ballyhack.  If I could play there twice a month, I think that I could over time overcome that to a point. This issue presents itself no more so than the first hole.

Tommy, I hope your pictures show a lot of tee & fairway eye level views.

I do think that I am at the upper handicap index limit of anyone that can successfully navigate the course for all 18.

I'm a big fan of the use of psychological hazards, because they stay with you and add a layer of intrigue.  Semi-blind landing areas, elevated greens, awkward lies, etc are all little twists that keep you from having a "standard" shot and ensure a hole never becomes boring after repeated plays.  Ballyhack features these in so many ways. 

[Jim Sherma]

Man, the rough around the bunkers looks so lush. I would think that is a perfect place to cut fairway all the way to the edge to encourage the ball to find the hazard. Otherwise the hole looks very interesting. Looking forward to the rest of the course. Thanks

The lush rough around the bunkers are a much worse hazard than the bunkers themselves. There is always a sense of relief when you find the ball in the bunker proper as opposed to being caught up along the edges where the ball can easily be lost or else leave a very difficult chop out with no real chance at advancing the ball in any meaningful way. Number 2 is a visually awesome hole. The severity of the middle bunker and its immediate surrounds make the play out to the left the reasonable play given multiple rounds. The play over the middle bunker or through the speed slot between the left and middle bunker is so much fun. I just think the maintenance of the middle bunker likely makes it too risky.