BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Neil Johnston]

I am sufficiently behind that I won't try to catch up fully, and just add a couple things:

#6 - agree with JC who made two solid points - that the hole should play 280-300 for everyone; and that the vegetation should allow the golfer who goes at the green to more easily see his ball. I hit one ball at the George Cup I thought was perfect but we couldn't find it around the green. And I am not even Kevin Lynch long. During the George Cup team part, our group hit two on the green, but we couldn't be certain until we got there. I am sure this hole contributed a lot to the slow play that day.

I enjoyed that hole the most of almost any other for its pure risk-reward.

#10 - from the tees we played at the George Cup, we ended up about 230-240 out I think. I found the hole a little bit like the par 5s at Tullymore in that there was too much trouble around the green for a mere mortal to think about going at it in two. But it also somewhat discouraging to hit a huge drive, then have to hit 9 iron-wedge.

General - I struggled the most with the uphill shots; that is, knowing how many yards/clubs to add. It's an uneasiness which permeates your whole round, and frustrated me given that small misses in some cases cost multiple shots. But it also made successful shots that much more rewarding.

All in, an awesome place and an awesome course. I look forward to reading about the back nine, which is likely to be a little more controversial.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am sufficiently behind that I won't try to catch up fully, and just add a couple things:

#10 - from the tees we played at the George Cup, we ended up about 230-240 out I think. I found the hole a little bit like the par 5s at Tullymore in that there was too much trouble around the green for a mere mortal to think about going at it in two. But it also somewhat discouraging to hit a huge drive, then have to hit 9 iron-wedge.


All in, an awesome place and an awesome course. I look forward to reading about the back nine, which is likely to be a little more controversial.

Neil, the first dozen times I never went for the green in two.  The last bunch of times I have gone after it, mainly because I am talking with my three wood again.  Even if you pull it a tad the hill to the left of the fairway is very friendly, so like many shots at Ballyhack the target is wider than it appears.

[Kevin Lynch]

I am sufficiently behind that I won't try to catch up fully, and just add a couple things:

#6 - agree with JC who made two solid points - that the hole should play 280-300 for everyone; and that the vegetation should allow the golfer who goes at the green to more easily see his ball. I hit one ball at the George Cup I thought was perfect but we couldn't find it around the green. And I am not even Kevin Lynch long. During the George Cup team part, our group hit two on the green, but we couldn't be certain until we got there. I am sure this hole contributed a lot to the slow play that day.

I enjoyed that hole the most of almost any other for its pure risk-reward.

#10 - from the tees we played at the George Cup, we ended up about 230-240 out I think. I found the hole a little bit like the par 5s at Tullymore in that there was too much trouble around the green for a mere mortal to think about going at it in two. But it also somewhat discouraging to hit a huge drive, then have to hit 9 iron-wedge.

General - I struggled the most with the uphill shots; that is, knowing how many yards/clubs to add. It's an uneasiness which permeates your whole round, and frustrated me given that small misses in some cases cost multiple shots. But it also made successful shots that much more rewarding.

All in, an awesome place and an awesome course. I look forward to reading about the back nine, which is likely to be a little more controversial.

Hey Neil - glad to get some feedback from the Windy City.

#6 - I'm fairly sure the lost ball was due to the fact there was only 5 minutes of sunlight left in the day and we didn't pick through the rough around the right greenside bunker.  You were definitely there (and you are just as long as I am and much more consistent).

***************

#10 - But you are no "mere mortal."  If I'd been with you on #10, I would have caddied you into an Eagle Putt (or a Triple Bogey) - no guarantees.  But I'll take a Triple Bogey long before I ever lay up with a wedge on a Par 5.  If there's water between me and the hole, I'll try the Mickelson skip shot first.  If you're at all adept at controlling punch shots, another alternative it to aim for the neck / speed slot and you will be amazed at how close you can get.  Whether you're better at a 40-50 yard pitch vs a full wedge from the wider landing area is a decision to make, but you generally have a ground option from the speed slot (unless the pin is well right).

But, to your point, the worry you have about the risk trade-off being too high is the same concern Jim Sherma raised about trying to drive #6 (and I've already talked you into that one).  I felt the same way about #10's second shot, but I think the area on the hillside left is a little more manageable and provides a reasonable "bail out" from the right chasm (and helps push balls back towards the green).  Even if you get hung up on the left hillside, I'm fairly comfortable with the "chunk and run" from an awkward stance.  But I suppose if I draw one of those random death lies over there I may change my tune a little, but this year was the first time I was able to get through a George Cup "Chasm Free" so I'm emboldened to keep going for it.


The one item that I forgot to mention on #10 is the lie of the fairway if you're in reachable range (which, given the speed slot and firm conditions, is further back than you think).  The fairways roll quite a bit, so this can change, but generally I've noticed I'll have a slightly downhill/sidehill lie on the right side of the fairway,  but a little flatter lie the more left I go.  

With the chasm on the right, I want to be as far right as possible so I'm aiming away from it, but the downhill lie may bring the chasm into play.  However, at the same time, it also promotes the ball flight you want if you aim at the left hillside and bring it back to the speed slot.  From the left side of the fairway, I've never been comfortable going for the green in two just given the angle relative to the chasm, even though the lie is flatter.

*************

Being a Chicago flatlander, I understand why you may not be as acclimated to the uphill approaches.  Of course, if you don't like uphill approaches with significant penalties for small misses, I'm assuming Cog Hill Dubsdread isn't among your Chicagoland favorites.  

[Kevin Lynch]

RE: Prairie Dunes, the only similarity to BH I was alluding to is how punitive some holes can be.  At PD it is due primarily to its unforgiving gunch that is in play on a normal day and impossible to avoid when the wind blows (which I am told is quite often, 35 to 40+ mph during my last visit).  It doesn't have the topography of Bh (though many of its tees and some of the greens are perched), it is a smaller course, and the fairways are quite a bit narrower.  I remember a mid-single digit national member who said he hadn't broken 80 in his many visits despite being just a few over par for 15-16 holes.  A blow-up hole or two always got in the way.  A far better match play course IMO than medal; ditto for Bh.  I would love to play Greensomes at Bh some day (foursomes with both players on each side driving the ball and alternating from there).

I understood what you meant - I was just curious if you found Ballyhack any more or less playable than Prairie Dunes given they both have a punitive threat.  And one is rated very highly despite that edge, even though it appears equally punitive.  It's almost as if the punishment at Prairie Dunes is expected and accepted given the smaller nature of the course, but when a course appears as expansive as Ballyhack, the lost ball areas are more shocking.

Again, not playing PD, I can't comment on the relative strength of the designs, but I feel so strongly about the positive aspects of Ballyhack that I can't believe there's that much disparity.

Ballyhack is definitely a great match play course and also fun in other formats.  At this past George Cup, we had a good time playing modified Alternate Shot (picking from best of two tee shots), and I imagine Greensomes / Scotch Doubles would be equally fun.  Of course, the risk reward nature of the course lends itself to heroics, and many of our "racing sunset" rounds have been Two Man Scrambles played head-to-head.

[Neil Johnston]

Kevin - I don't dislike Dubs, but seldom play it due to its low placement on the value continuum in Chicago. I am not certain your comparison is apt though. Number 5 is a great example. There are certainly few approaches anywhere in Illinois (maybe Flossmoor #17) which are uphill to this degree.

But it's not an unfair approach, and it's a fun shot to play. But I think it takes some practice to develop the feel necessary to know how much club to take. In the moment, you come up 2 yards short from glory, and watch it bound down the hill, and it's frustrating. But it's far more memorable than coming up 2 yards shot on a "flat lander" course and having a far easier up and down. Not a design flaw by any means, just a challenge to which I am unaccustomed. I look forward to returning armed with that experience.

Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.

[Tim Pitner]

Catching up here...

#9 - maybe my least favorite hole at Ballyhack all because of the tee shot; for me, absent a particularly helping or hurting wind, there's really nowhere for me to land my driver shot; sure, I should take 3 wood, but I don't like not having a reasonable option of hitting a driver on a par 5; maybe I'm too dogmatic on this.

#10 - a beautifully presented hole and one of my favorites; I also have been reluctant to attempt the green with my second shot, but only because I'm not trusting my 5 wood these days.  This was the first hole I played at Ballyhack and it was a great introduction. 

I really enjoy the back nine at Ballyhack--looking forward to the rest of the tour.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin - I don't dislike Dubs, but seldom play it due to its low placement on the value continuum in Chicago. I am not certain your comparison is apt though. Number 5 is a great example. There are certainly few approaches anywhere in Illinois (maybe Flossmoor #17) which are uphill to this degree.

But it's not an unfair approach, and it's a fun shot to play. But I think it takes some practice to develop the feel necessary to know how much club to take. In the moment, you come up 2 yards short from glory, and watch it bound down the hill, and it's frustrating. But it's far more memorable than coming up 2 yards shot on a "flat lander" course and having a far easier up and down. Not a design flaw by any means, just a challenge to which I am unaccustomed. I look forward to returning armed with that experience.

Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.

That last line is funny!!!  But I'm out of the "Excessively Proud Defending Champion" persona now and happily handed that persona off to Tommy.  

Besides, I think Carl already returned me to my old label a few posts ago without mentioning my name when he said the "long aggressive and inconsistent player may have some soul searching because, as usual for Ballyhack, the off line shot offers limited at best (or flat out lucky) chance of recovery."

I think he may have given his assessment of my championship reign as well (the "flat out lucky" part).


I agree that the magnitude of the uphill is more severe than at Cog Hill.  I guess I have just taken for granted how much of an adjustment those approaches are for people (I have two uphill approaches of #5's magnitude at my home course).  I've always said that my favorite part of these holes is the building anticipation and the "reveal" after you have struck one well enough to clear the front, but you're never sure how close.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.

That last line is funny!!!  But I'm out of the "Excessively Proud Defending Champion" persona now and happily handed that persona off to Tommy.  

I am humbled by my demolition of the field. The George Cup is never far from my side.

[Tommy Williamsen]

#11 par four—357,322,265,250,246

For the first few dozen times I played this hole I chose the 322 tees.  From there I would aim for a little bowl on the right side of the fairway, because a tee shot that lands a little left of middle rolls to the left rough.  Then I decided to move up to the 250 tee periodically and have a go at the green.  I can’t carry the ball far enough to land the ball on the green, so I’d aim to the right front fringe.  Fronting the green is the bunker of damnation.  To the right of the bunker is a space about 15 yards wide.  It is one of the most fun shots on the course.  It makes little sense for me to hit driver from that tee.  I just can’t help myself.  I don’t make any more birdies than from the 322 tee but I sure enjoy the hole more.  That is the essence of Ballyhack.  The course is a sultry blonde at the end of the bar saying, “Come here, handsome.  Can you handle me?”
The walk off the tenth tee gets your heart beating a littler more quickly because you know what is coming.


Like many holes on the course there is a different look or a different angle from the tees.  Below is the view from the 322 tee marker.


Close up.  Notice the right to left slope from the middle of the fairway.  To the right of middle the fairway is a little more level, albeit an uphill stance.


From the 322 tee I aim for the little bowl on the right side of the fairway.  The shot is blind to the green but the left side is a little dicey.   While the tee shot seems uphill it really on rises a bit.  The fairway, however, goes uphill so there is very little roll.  In fact, depending, on where the tee shot lands, I have had my ball roll backwards.  Yet it still is only about 120 yards for me.  The second shot is not as much uphill as it seems and when the pin is back I have flown the green at times.  I have seen longer hitters get close to the green.  The ability to fly the ball a long way helps at Ballyhack.  Where I make up ground is that I am pretty straight and lose very few balls.  I can go for rounds and not lose any.


Looking back from the landing area.


Push the tee shot and here is what you get.


Here is the view from above the 250 tee marker.

This gives you an idea of the green and surrounds if you try to drive the green.


A bunker guards the entire left side of the green.  The green is long and narrow.  It may be a club and a half longer from front to back.  I was dismayed to discover that I have no pictures of the green.  The green is relatively flat but moves left to right and front to back.  


Looking back the severe slope is easy to see.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sultry Blonde comment is all-world
#embellish
#periphrasis

[Jerry Kluger]

It has been quite a while since I was at Ballyhack and I want to ask about the areas surrounding the bunkers.  In some cases it is mowed fairly closely and balls will probably roll into them but in other places the grass surrounding the bunkers is extremely long and would prevent balls from rolling into the bunkers and make for a nearly impossible recovery shot or even a lost ball.  I don't know how I would react if I lost a ball or had an impossible shot rather than being able to play from the bunker.

[Jim Sherma]

Welcome to the party Jerry. The bunker edgings has been an ongoing sub-plot on this thread. Outcomes are very much luck of the draw around them.

#10 is a wonderful par 5. A drive where you can open your shoulders and fully release without too much fear. The really interesting aspect of the hole for me is choosing how aggressive to be on the second shot. The drop-off right and the bunkers left can both be penal and there really is not that much room in the neck to be whacking a 3-wood into. If you get up short of the green you have a fairly simple chip that should end with a 4 or 5. Laying back leave a wedge from a tougher angle. This green is also more difficult than appears and seems to have more tilt than undulation. Longish putts have been tough for me to get the speed right. This is my favorite par 5 on the course and one of my favorite holes.

#11 - I guess it manages to get you to the 12th tee... Really an odd ball and awkward hole in my opinion. Most of the fairway is essentially useless, I can't imagine what a second shot up the hill from anything short of the right fairway bunker must be like. I think you have to get it up to the right side bowl that Tommy mentioned at the very least. Banging it just short of the front bunker leaves either a nasty little pitch over the bunker or some type of bump/chip off of the right front slope. 

On this hole Tommy played one of the best chips I have ever seen with a lob wedge off of the right fringe over a little knob with some check on it. If I had hands like that I could've been competitive.

This hole has some strategic similarities to the 9th at Ballyneal in that you really need to aggressively get it up the hill to leave a decent second shot. All of the fairway you can see short of the ridge at Ballyneal and the right bowl here can not be viewed as a true playing option since the blind shot off the uphill lie is so difficult.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?

Jerry, over the past few years I have seen the bunkers and fringes softened a bit. A very many had longish grass surrounding many bunkers. The result was that many balls were lost even though they were just off the fairway and next to a bunker.  I am one of those who is I favor of softening the bunker fringes like they did on five.  I read one suggestion here that it might be interesting to cut the fairways all the way to some of the bunkers, like number two.  In that case, however, the rough around the bunkers helps because recovery from them is often easier that shots that find the bunkers.

[Chris DeNigris]

Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?

Jerry- I think Jim's comments are more about the lies you get when in the bunker, yours are about the grass surrounding them. After being in and around many of the bunkers on most of the holes I can say that I've never really felt an element of unfairness, just variation.  For instance, many of the bunkers are surrounded or bordered by fairway and they have friendlier grass to hit from- while the many that border the native have uglier grass to play from.  Not arbitrary, just different.  One of the exceptions was the complex in the fairway at 5 and I think the recent modifications to these bunker edges will make them more akin to the centerline bunkers on 2. You can however, get some really unfortunate lies just outside some of the many bunkers cut into the hillsides (6, 9, 10, 12, 12, 14, 16 come to mind).

[Paul Gray]

Hmm, I've been following this thread and have to say I love the look of the course but can't help but think I'd be irritated by the grass around the hazards. It just always amazes me that one would go to the expensive of building a bunker and then not want it to play as big as its size allowed. If you want less balls in the sand, don't make the traps so large in the first place.

[Jim Sherma]

Jim: Should the luck of the draw be arbitrary or should there be a sound architectural reason? Is there a reason why the grass around some bunkers is so much different than others?

Jerry - by luck of the draw I referred to shots that end up on the edges of the bunkers. If the ball stays in the maintained rough along the edges your fine, if the ball ends up in the bunker proper you are fine. The ball ending up in the transition area along the edges of the bunkers and/or in the unmaintained rough can result in anything from a playable shot to a hack and hope to a lost/ball unplayable. Sometimes all of these outcomes can be within a 3 to 5 foot circle. Visually it can be very impressive but drawing the short end of the stick a few times in a round can definitely try one's patience. I generally lean towards the opinion that recovery shots should be available to reasonable misses. Some of the areas around these bunkers do not lend themselves to allowing the better skilled golfer to use that skill in making a recovery shot.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Hmm, I've been following this thread and have to say I love the look of the course but can't help but think I'd be irritated by the grass around the hazards. It just always amazes me that one would go to the expensive of building a bunker and then not want it to play as big as its size allowed. If you want less balls in the sand, don't make the traps so large in the first place.

Paul, when I joined Four Streams in 1999 we had a similar problem with bunkers.  Smyers left "eyebrows" on many of the bunkers and members would lose balls in them. It only took a few years of complaining about them to see them disappear.  I can understand the natural look around the bunkers.  I like it, yet I also would like to see more shots end up in bunkers. They are difficult to play out of.

[Kevin Lynch]

Here's the 11th hole aerial,but I think Tommy's pics captured this hole pretty well.



The Yellow Line from the Ballyhack Tees is roughly a 230 yard tee shot, leaving ~85-90 yards in.  I also sketched in Tommy's "Sultry Blonde" heroic shot for some fun. 

The White Circle shows the Big Lick tees, but these only max out at 357.  I also used the Red Circle to highlight a few exposed boulders that remain along the upper left fairway.  These can actually stop an overheated hook or pull.  I'm not sure if Jerry Kluger will remember it, but at the Inaugural George Cup, my ball landed roughly a foot inside one of these and my only option was to stand on the rock and use all my "ball below the feet" training to pop a shot onto the green.

[Kevin Lynch]

#11 - I guess it manages to get you to the 12th tee... Really an odd ball and awkward hole in my opinion. Most of the fairway is essentially useless, I can't imagine what a second shot up the hill from anything short of the right fairway bunker must be like. I think you have to get it up to the right side bowl that Tommy mentioned at the very least. Banging it just short of the front bunker leaves either a nasty little pitch over the bunker or some type of bump/chip off of the right front slope. 

This hole has some strategic similarities to the 9th at Ballyneal in that you really need to aggressively get it up the hill to leave a decent second shot. All of the fairway you can see short of the ridge at Ballyneal and the right bowl here can not be viewed as a true playing option since the blind shot off the uphill lie is so difficult.

All right - I'm got to try and temper some of the angst / drama over these "blind, uphill shots."

What is a shot short of the fairway bunker like?  It's just like any other golf shot - you need to make a good swing with the proper club.  This one's just more exciting because you have to think a little to select a club.  But you're still holding a short iron (maybe mid-iron), so I'm not so sure why this is such an issue for people.  I don't usually hear people say "that downhill approach is too hard because it plays 1-2 clubs shorter than the yardage or that hole plays downwind, which makes most of the fairway unusable."

So, you're 115 out and you have to make a 130 yard swing.  Is a flat lie with no elevation change from a 130 yard sprinkler head more exciting? 

I played this from the Big Lick tees with Hickories and loved the 150 yard shot from near the bottom of the fairway.  I had to hit the equivalent of the 175 yard club, but even that isn't asking too much on this hole, because there's a huge backstop / sideslope to the right of the green which effectively enlarges your target. 

The hole is 322 yards, and the massive slopes of the fairway / blindness of the approach provide levels of intrigue beyond the simplified dimension of length.  You're right - there really isn't a very simple 2nd shot on this hole (unless you can find Tommy's little patch of fairway and reach the green - like Andy Hughes).  You have to consider the roll-out and trajectory of your tee shot beyond "I'll just hit my draw right down the middle." 

It may be an odd, awkward hole - but that's what makes it an interesting, wonderful hole, in my opinion.  You simply look at the scorecard distance and may dream of birdies, but the hole ends up being much more thought-provoking and challenging.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tommy: I played Four Streams right after it opened as I was an Avenel member and they wanted us to consider joining.  The long grasses around the bunkers were certainly an issue and they were addressed.  The matter I am addressing at Ballyhack is the inconsistency in the grasses around the bunkers - some long, some short.  Also, I have felt that after being part of GCA for more than 10 years that the general consensus is that bunkers should be there for the ball to land in or roll in and not be prevented from doing so.   

[Wade Whitehead]

#11 - I guess it manages to get you to the 12th tee... Really an odd ball and awkward hole in my opinion. Most of the fairway is essentially useless,

Jim:

All I can say is that you need to play the hole a few dozen more times.

Eleven closes a stretch of "gettable" holes that allow the player to recover from Ballyhack's difficult start.  Holes 1-5 and the tee shot on #6 challenge the player on a variety of levels.  Once the first shot on six is in play, however, the golf course allows the thinking player to hit wedge into five of six holes (6, 8, 10, 11, and 11).  A smashed drive on 12 (under the proper wind conditions) can present another short approach, in spite of the posted yardage.

The eleventh hole challenges the player to decide: Do I hit driver as close to the green as possible?  Do I lay back, having hit wedge a couple of times in the past hour?  Angle is important; the right side presents a clearer approach, which a shot to the left side of the fairway runs hard left (and even back toward the player), often finishing in the rough.  Distance AND line are important and, judged properly, can reward the player with a familiar yardage to a blind green.

In the match play context so prevalent at Ballyhack, the eleventh hole can tilt the scale.  I often say that the first third of the round kicks you in the teeth, the middle third allows you back to your feet, and anything goes in the finishing third, depending on the wind.  When it's howling, the eleventh can feel like a player's last chance to grab a hole.  Things are wild and unpredictable down the stretch (in a very good way) in Windy Gap.

I have a feeling that opinions about #11 might be different if resources (including regulations) permitted construction of a nice walking bridge across the ravine.

Mostly, though, reflecting on the hole reminds me that Ballyhack is a golf course meant to be played for decades.  It's just not possible to completely crack its code in less time than that.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Most first timers don't even realize they've played back-to-back par fives when they leave the tenth green.

That's an indicator of two high calibre holes that present entirely different challenges.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Jim: Another thought about #11.  Have you seen the earlier routing the connected the 11th and 17th greens as a double putting surface?  I had it at the George Cup this year (and it was, as I'm sure you recall, a Quiz question).

I wonder how that eleventh would have compared in your mind.

In any event, I look forward to playing the hole with you when you visit over the coming year.

WW

[Carl Rogers]

Jim: Another thought about #11.  Have you seen the earlier routing the connected the 11th and 17th greens as a double putting surface?  I had it at the George Cup this year (and it was, as I'm sure you recall, a Quiz question). ....

WW

A question that I correctly answered  (I might add).  I wonder how much of that hill would have been removed to actually execute such a design.
The slope up to the 11th green does not seem that extreme in a relative sense after playing holes 1 & 5.  This hole plays harder for me than it should.  The irregular nature of the various lies makes aiming the approach shot a challenge.   My memory of the green is that putting is not, in a relative sense, hard.
Previous posts pretty well sum up the hole .... drive up the right side, the short approach shot plays longer ... do not miss left!

In conversations with Lester, I believe he said that 11 was the hardest hole to construct.