[Matthew Lloyd]

This weekend I played a Pete Dye course for the first time -- not sure how it took so long.  Played PGA West Stadium Course and his course at Mission Hills.  I had been warned by a fellow GCAer -- who I was playing the rounds with -- that the courses were really silly and that I wouldn't like them at all. Skeptical, I was excited to play anyway.  I was clearly wrong.  I always enjoy a round of golf as I don't get to play very often these days, but still -- I found these courses to be a joke.  You obviously need to hit extremely good shots to post any kind of a score, so as a thorough examination of your game, these courses provide a great test (and I received a D+ at best), but the design features were almost comical.  I felt like I was playing a putt-putt course for adults most of the time.

My primary issues with the design:
-- the constant repetition of the same holes over and over again (the water extending the length of the hole on one side with fake mounds on the other; the long par 3 carry over a fake body of water, etc.). I can't believe he even got a design fee for the Mission Hills course as it appeared to be a complete rip-off of his earlier work at PGA West (if that's indeed the order in which they were built -- either way he was copying himself)
-- needless visual tricks with the curving of fairways when it's not necessary at all
-- annoying to walk with long gaps between holes
-- #16 at PGA West was in particular a Mickey Mouse design - that green complex was a travesty

I thought PGA West was significantly better than his course at Mission Hills, and I'm still glad that I played the course once, but I will definitely think twice before playing another Pete Dye course.

I'm sure none of these observations are new, but wanted to share the shock value I experienced as a first-timer.

[Jason Thurman]

Matthew, I haven't played those two courses, but I have played more courses from Pete Dye than any other architect. Some of your observations are pretty predictable, but others really surprise me.

- Constant repetition: That's definitely something I expect to hear with regards to Dye, and it's not exactly surprising given that his biggest influence is Raynor. There are certain holes that appear on virtually every Dye course. These "templates" tend to have pretty good playing qualities, but they also get a little tired after a while. I suspect we'd have the same criticism of Raynor if his courses were more accessible and his design portfolio more prolific. I prefer Dye's more original moments on most courses as opposed to the "Dye by numbers" holes.

- Needless visual tricks: Dye is certainly a master of deception. What made the tricks you saw on the courses you played unnecessary?

- Annoying to walk: This was the most surprising one for me. I think one of Dye's most underrated aspects is a commitment to walkable routings. Outside of the River course at Blackwolf Run, which has two long (but not ridiculous) transitions that are completely justifiable if you understand the history of the course, all the Dye courses I've played are extremely walkable.

- I haven't played 16 at PGA West. What was so bad about it? He certainly can get over the top around greens at times (see also: 17 at Pete Dye Golf Club).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

You can't judge PGA West without knowing the directive that Pete was given by the developer and his employer.

"Context" is critical in understanding design.

[Jordan Standefer]

To echo Pat's comment, the Stadium Course was clearly designed to be demanding for the professional.  (PGA West was awarded the 1991 Ryder Cup, before moving to Kiawah.)  Much like you, I am glad to have played it a few times, but I'm also not in a hurry to go back.

Having said that, I wouldn't completely write-off all Dye designs based on the Stadium Course.  The Mountain Course at La Quinta up the road that is a good example of a Dye design that isn't nearly as punishing and much more fun to play.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Really?!! I will admit that Pete does use some template holes, like a cape 18th on many courses but so did CB and Seth Raynor use template holes.  But to criticize an architect work because of such a small sampling is ridiculous.  I have played at least 50 of Pete's designs and he is one of the more creative architects of the past 50 years.  When everyone wanted an RTJ course that was a long "championship" course, Pete built Harbour Town.  The Golf Club was ground breaking and allowed other architects to broaden their own horizons.
I'm not a fan of every one of his courses but do love his work as a whole.

[Matthew Rose]

PGA West was built at the zenith of 1980s "make it as hard as you possibly can and spare no expense" philosophy. I think it might not be the best introduction to Dye for that reason.

[Chris DeToro]

Dye definitely tries things that few others would and perhaps it was his earlier designs like The Golf Club that gave him this leverage.  I've played about a dozen of Dye's courses and have found that regardless of my overall opinion, they definitely elicit a strong response whether positive or negative. 

[Ronald Montesano]

I'll congratulate you, Matthew Lloyd, for putting your opinion out there and allowing said perspective to be "discussed."

I had a small sampling of RTJ Sr. courses about which to make a similar assessment. Then, I played Crag Burn, Golden Horseshoe, Cornell University, Seven Oaks and heard about Green Lakes State Park. There is variety if you have the time and desire to look for it. Same goes for Paul Dye and his courses.

[Chris DeToro]

Off the top of my head, Harbour Town is one that is a bit of a departure from the PGA West/TPC Sawgrass ilk

[Ivan Lipko]

What is tough about PGA West? No rough, great weather and if you play from mid-tees very playable. Many Scandinavian courses are much, much tougher, while still being shorter and not nearly as famous.

Tough is when you get tight fairways, deep wet rough, strong wind and rain. The rest is just how many shots you screwed.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matthew:

I have played PGA West several times and for the most part enjoyed it, though I can't really say I like the style. As for #16, I never actually hit my approach to the left. So, one time I decided to just drop a ball down there and see what it was like. Honestly, I came away thinking it was a bit crazy, confirming my suspicion that the risk reward ratio of trying to hit close to a left side pin wasn't worth it.

Make the trip to Kohler sometime. The River Course and Whistling Straits are both worth the trip.

[Eric Strulowitz]

I have been fortunate to play quite a few Dye courses, and I must say that from the right tees, they are a blast.

Played Harbor Towne this past summer, found it very playable.  There is also another lesser known course in Hilton Head called Hampton Hall, it is very wide open and player friendly.  Have played the Dye  PGA West courses, and from proper tees, very playable and just a good time out.  These courses are designed to test the best, so if you play a distance beyond your skill level, you are in for a long round.

I look at some of Dyes most extreme holes the way I look at some of the work of Mike Stranz.  Forget about score and try and have a good time.   You will get beaten up, if you are just an average hack like me, that is a given.   But, you will inevitably hit a few good and even heroic shots, you will remember those!  In the end, it is just about having fun and playing a Dye course is always a treat!

[Anthony_Nysse]

I may be a little bias, but someone will chime in to support. One cannot make a statement about PD without playing Long Cove Club. I went back 3 weeks ago for the first time since I was an Assistant Superintendent and just DO NOT think that there is a course that better shows off tremendous architecture while grabbing the lowcountry feel.
  What is even more impressive, is that it was built right after TPC and could not be more different. The large, expansive green sites, the subtle rolls in the fairways and the native oaks tree being an intricate part of the design and how tee shots and approach shots are shaped around them (#3, #4, #8, #9, #10, #11, #15) Even when compared to Harbour Town, which is just 5 miles up the road, you have more variety and enjoyment at LC.
  I think A LOT of Petes work the last 20 years is the same-looks the same and nothing too standout. His designs where little dirt was moved seems to be his BEST architecture, IMHO. LC is vastly underrated and is due much more fan fare.

[jeffwarne]

Anthony,
I agree 100% about Long Cove, but then I'm definitely biased as well .
What stands out the most to me is how he took that site and built such a great course on a shoestring budget-especially when you look at all the boring courses around it on similar land.

That said, with all the courses out there designed by Pete Dye, it would seem a bit unfair to deny someone an opinion on Pete Dye without having played one of his courses, especially a private one.
I like some/many of his courses(I particularly like Colleton river), and certainly appreciate his legacy as an innovator and more importantly one who developed/inspired and mentored some/much of the great architectural talent we have today..

If one can have an opinion on Donald Ross without playing #2, one can certainly have an opinion of Dye without playing LCC.
It just might not be as educated as it might be

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

I have not seen Mr. Dye for quite some time, but I'm supposed to see him at Kiawah a week from now and I will pass on your regards.  One of the great things about Pete Dye is that he wouldn't be bothered at all by anything you've said.  He would just know you're wrong, but first impressions are often wrong.

I can vouch for the design brief for the Stadium course at PGA West because I was sitting in Joe Walser's office when he delivered it.  He said, "Pete, we don't want the ideal golf course.  We want the hardest golf course in the world.  We want it so hard that people in Japan, who have never been here, will complain about how hard it is."    He was not very ambiguous!

Of course, most of that was music to Pete's ears -- by then he had designed a lot of courses for professional tournaments, and it was not a big deal to him at all.  Long Cove was sort of the opposite, a project where the client said it was not about that at all -- it was just for the members to play and have fun, and coming right on the heels of the TPC at Sawgrass, it is kind of a reaction to it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Very funny man, confident, strong opinion....would have been good at anything he wanted to be good at. Not big headed at all someone you would want at YOUR part cus he would make it better. 

When I met him it was like meeting a pop star.

[Chris DeToro]

As somewhat of an Indiana native, I'm a huge fan of how Pete has given back to the state (the Kampen course in particular).  Has anyone here played some of his early designs around the state?  Which would be the best to visit? 

[Mike Hendren]

Would there be today's golf architecture renaissance - new golden ag, if you prefer, without Pete Dye?  Arguably he is THE pivotal link. 

Bogey

[Jason Thurman]

Charlie, you should feel privileged. Pete Dye Golf Club is fantastic and doesn't get talked about nearly enough on this site.

[Tom Fagerli]

I too think you picked a bad example to start on. I got lucky and played my first Dye when I was a freshman in college (spring 1976) and we played a match against High Point College at Oak Hollow in High Point. A blast then and I suspect it still is if maintained properly. I drive by it when headed to the Sandhills but haven't played it in a couple decades. Shame on me.

[Dave McCollum]

I don’t know anything about this topic except I have played Dye’s course at Mission Hills.  It was my distinct impression that I was playing a different course than the one originally designed.  On many holes there is a central water hazard on the right side separating the outward and inward holes, a division pond between the two.  My feeling was the left side of the fairway was a waste area of sand separating the golf from the housing.  It seems that many of these left waste areas were converted into ponds to provide the home owners with greater privacy, creating the rather awkward design feature of water down both sides of the fairway.  I don’t know if this impression is correct, but it would seem it falls into some Palm Springs aesthetic where all golf courses finish to some sort of Island or cape green over a pond.  Zoning or some developer code demands it.  And, of course, if one pays such a premium for their “exclusive” lot, it is hardly desirable to have golfers wandering around anywhere near your back yard.
   
As for the Stadium course, I’ve been trying to play it for years.  I think it is a missing piece in my golfing CV.  I just can’t find any of my buddies willing to keep me company.  Maybe I need to upgrade my sales pitch:  How would you like to pay $225 to see if you can break 120?  Iconic masterpiece of modern design?  I don’t know.  What I do know is that every time I call up to see if we can get on and perhaps catch some kind of industry consideration, mostly during their high season, they’re busy trying to work in all the retail golfers who are eager to put themselves through this Navy Seal boot camp obstacle  course .  I say good for them, good for golf that people are clamoring to play their course.  I’ll keep trying just out of curiosity until it’s too absurd for this geezer to consider.

[Brian Finn]

First, I'll echo the sentiment that PGA West Stadium is actually quite playable from the correct set of tees.  I've always found Pete Dye courses (even those I don't love) reasonable for all but the highest handicap players, but moving back a set of tees (or two) can quickly turn pars and bogeys into doubles and triples.  For anyone curious to learn more about Pete and his designs, I strongly encourage reading Bury Me in a Pot a Bunker. . It provides a bit of the context that Pat and Tom mention for several of his courses, and has many great stories for anyone interested in golf architecture.  While we all have different taste, I would encourage folks to see as many of Pete Dye's best before writing him off.  The Golf Club, Crooked Stick, Kiawah Ocean, PDGC, Long Cove, and several others are simply brilliant. 

[Jon Cavalier]

First, I'll echo the sentiment that PGA West Stadium is actually quite playable from the correct set of tees.  I've always found Pete Dye courses (even those I don't love) reasonable for all but the highest handicap players, but moving back a set of tees (or two) can quickly turn pars and bogeys into doubles and triples.  For anyone curious to learn more about Pete and his designs, I strongly encourage reading Bury Me in a Pot a Bunker. . It provides a bit of the context that Pat and Tom mention for several of his courses, and has many great stories for anyone interested in golf architecture.  While we all have different taste, I would encourage folks to see as many of Pete Dye's best before writing him off.  The Golf Club, Crooked Stick, Kiawah Ocean, PDGC, Long Cove, and several others are simply brilliant. 

I agree with Brian's take. I've played 20-something Dye designs, and while some people will find some of his designs objectionable, he's built more than a few courses that are undeniably great (Pete Dye GC being one that I've seen but not played, and Blackwolf River being another. I Also happen to think Kiawah Ocean is excellent, but understand it's not for all.

His courses are also, for the most part, memorable. This makes them appealing to the vast majority of daily fee and resort players. A great example of this is his course at French Lick. This course is described by some as silly, and admittedly, it's not entirely my cup of tee. But every "normal" daily fee player that I played with with RAVED about it as being one of the most spectacular courses they've ever played.

Regardless, Brian is right - it's futile to draw blanket conclusions about any architect on the basis of one or two courses, and this probably applies to Pete Dye more than anyone else.

[Matt Kardash]

Matthew:

I have not seen Mr. Dye for quite some time, but I'm supposed to see him at Kiawah a week from now and I will pass on your regards.  One of the great things about Pete Dye is that he wouldn't be bothered at all by anything you've said.  He would just know you're wrong, but first impressions are often wrong.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at that meeting. Any reason in particular for the meeting, or just for old times sake?

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

I have not seen Mr. Dye for quite some time, but I'm supposed to see him at Kiawah a week from now and I will pass on your regards.  One of the great things about Pete Dye is that he wouldn't be bothered at all by anything you've said.  He would just know you're wrong, but first impressions are often wrong.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at that meeting. Any reason in particular for the meeting, or just for old times sake?

If you were a GOLFWEEK panelist, you could be there, for a few dollars.  It is a get-together organized by Brad Klein for his raters.  I agreed to attend so I could spend a little bit of time with Mr. Dye.  I'm sure I will learn something.  I'm not sure he will !

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