[Sean_A]

I have hear reports that Blackwell is improving, but the green fee is so high that very few folks will bother to play it.  In its neighbourhood Blackwell must be more than double the average. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Good to get that 'improving' Blackwell feedback.

Interestingly Blackwell combined with Little Aston and Beau Desert this year for a 3 day - 3 different courses Open Comp pairs event. First time the event's been held I believe. £300/pair I heard, which is £50 each person, per day. Seems not a bad price given the 3 courses involved. I believe Notts-Hollinwell and two other courses over in the East-Midlands-South Yorks area (??Lindrick/Sherwood Forest/Coxmoor/Worksop??) also held a similar pairs Open Comp this year for the first time. I was actually thinking of playing in the EM-SY one but sadly diary dates clashed. I think the price was the same.

atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

in fact it was clubs such as Strathpeffer who suffered most. I know two of my regulars used to play there 5 to 10 times a year but it made more sense to join the cheapest club and do the reciprocals meaning Strathpeffer got less play and no money. Strangely these guys still play at mine regularly despite having to pay a green fee but now no longer members of Lochcarron this year do not go to Strathpeffer as they resent paying a fee.

Jon

[Ken Moum]

atb

Isn't £100+ green fees about reducing visitors, but still bringing in visitor fees?

Ciao

I think that depends entirely on the club's situation.

English clubs, like some of those being mentioned in response to my original comment, surely are in a different financial position than a course on the north end of Scotland. And, they are far more likely to have a market for their golf, whether green fee players or societies, than a remote course.

I'm not sure where courses like Scotscraig fall.  Last August my wife and I played in a mixed greensomes on a Saturday.  Green fees for the day would have been £160...  Our entry fee was £18.

I have no idea whether or not they are trying limit outside play, but they are currently running a membership offer of 16 months for 12-month subscription, with no entry fee.

Of course, the deal for comps is common, we played Nairn Dunbar in a greensomes for £20 when our combined green fee would have been £100.

Dunbar GC was £30 vs. $160 and Duddingston was £20 vs. £100

[Tony_Muldoon]

atb

Isn't £100+ green fees about reducing visitors, but still bringing in visitor fees?

Ciao

I think that depends entirely on the club's situation.

English clubs, like some of those being mentioned in response to my original comment, surely are in a different financial position than a course on the north end of Scotland. And, they are far more likely to have a market for their golf, whether green fee players or societies, than a remote course.

I'm not sure where courses like Scotscraig fall.  Last August my wife and I played in a mixed greensomes on a Saturday.  Green fees for the day would have been £160...  Our entry fee was £18.

I have no idea whether or not they are trying limit outside play, but they are currently running a membership offer of 16 months for 12-month subscription, with no entry fee.

Of course, the deal for comps is common, we played Nairn Dunbar in a greensomes for £20 when our combined green fee would have been £100.

Dunbar GC was £30 vs. $160 and Duddingston was £20 vs. £100

I've played in a few Opens and have greatly enjoyed them and the value they've provided; who doesn't enjoy playing an an organised competition at Crail, Cruden Bay, CAstlerock or RND?   But I'm not sure what the clubs get out of it.  I'm sure the day turns a small profit as they are sell outs and it's great to see the house and course so busy.  But do they attract new memebers which I always though of as a major objective in running these?  I doubt it, I've met a bunch of players who would only dream of playing the courses at that price and seem to plan their season around these events.  It's also true that many members join in and seem to enjoy them but I'm confused as to what they actually achieve.


Adrian do you have Open days/Weeks?

[Sean_A]

Spangles

I can understand mid-week opens or opens on bank holidays when the membership can still play the weekend.  But, the take has to be serious to be worthwhile.  Beau runs excellent opens at £40 a pop.  The tee times are booked for at least six hours straight.  Thats probably something like at least £5500 for the club and £3-4000 for catering...on a down day for members.  That open can pay for the membership being 5 light on the year without the comm having to listen to those five whinge about stuff    Beau runs 5 of these days and a few smaller ones.  That is serious money to bring in without interfering with weekend golf.  I suspect not much membership recruiting goes on, but it is a great time to do so.  I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal. 

Ciao   

[Niall C]

Just to correct any myth. The club hasn't failed to make payments but only suggested cash flow was 'tight'.
Could the £45 greenfees actually deter international visitors with golfers questioning if the product is secondary. Murcar, while admittedly in a great location next to Aberdeen will implement a £100 green fee in 2015 for this very reason. Fraserburgh's golf experience is worthy of a £75 fee. You could introduce a local rate at the current £45?

A couple of points.

Other than for the experience or to tick courses off a list, the NE of Scotland is not good value for golf money thesedays. Sorry, but unless you go up Deeside or way up Donside it ain't a pretty or scenic area, it's damn cold and windy, the 'warm'-ish playing season is pretty short, being near Oil City UK means the accommodation and grub is costly and the courses seem pretty expensive - next year RAGC at £156, Murcar at £100, CB also at £100, Fraserburgh/Broch at £75, that's not particularly good value in comparison to other areas of the UK or Ireland you can visit for quality links golf. But if folk are prepared to pay that kind of money..........

As to local visitors, is there a County Card type local/national scheme for members of other clubs in place in the NE these days?

Private members clubs should IMO be very careful with visitor/society income. It's not the cake, the members are the cake. Visitor/society income is the cream/the cherry/the icing sugar on the top of the cake, and you're risking a trip to a very bad place if you decide to live on cream/cherry/icing sugar.

atb

Thomas

The NE covers a big area. It's been nearly a couple of years since I moved back to Glasgow but when I was up there I played virtually all the courses in Moray for £12 or £15 as well as similar courses in Aberdeenshire. Indeed I remmeber playing Fraserburgh for £12 and Inverallochy for £10 all in the one day. Of course it helps if you can shop around for deals such as P&J vouchers but in truth you don't have to look too hard.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony - Yes we do have an Open week.. It consists of a 36 hole scratch Open on the Saturday with 1 round on each course. And Monday to Friday we have a running 4man 2 to count team event and a 4Ball better ball. It is £25 each for visitors.
Our members can bring between 1 and 3 guests (depending on category) to play free that week.
Our lower category £190 and then £20 a round do not pay that week so could in theory play 5 times.
We have nearest the pins at every hole, it is quite a good fun week.

It is pretty busy. And you get the brigade that search for cheap golf. It is more FOR the membership though.

[Thomas Dai]

If you have the time and the put in the effort, especially on the web, you can find numerous less expensive rounds of golf available within GB&I.

If you go and play the course 'next door' or 'just down the road' you'll probably turn-up, play, have a drink or two afterwards and go home. This could be termed the local circle, courses within maybe 20-40m mins of your home course or where you live. Not much £ generated in terms of golf add-on.

Open Comps on the other hand can be quite different. The add-ons can be much more significant.

Okay there are some Open Comps within your local circle that folk will play but folk also travel from far and wide to play in Open Comps.

Opens at Beau Desert were mentioned above. I've played in a couple of these and other competitiors have been from the likes of the Manchester area or Somerset. That's quite a long journey, quite a big circle. So not only do the competition entry fees generate revenue for the host club but golfers travelling to play in these kind of events have food and (soft? ) drink before they play and more food and drink afterwards. So clubhouse revenue is also generated. Some players will spend cash in the pro-shop, especially if the prizes are pro-shop vouchers. This scenario applies even more so when the event is one of the becoming ever more popular 3-4 day Opens at 3-4 different courses, where money spent on local accommodation also occurs. Eg post-Buda play this year at Westward Ho!/RND etc.

Just some thoughts.

atb

[Paul Gray]

.....I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal...... 

Ciao   

Absolutely. I've never quite understood the reluctance of a club to, as I see it, have 601 members for the price of 600. Mates come along and pay a members guest green fee, the bar takes a few quid and potentially you have four applicants the following year where previously you had none.

[Niall C]

...the point I was making to Ken for the vast majority of clubs there visitor business comes from comes from non-americans eg. locals.

Niall

I suppose you're right about the "majority of clubs), but I was referring to those with green fees in the range that seem absurd when you look as what memberships cost.  And that includes more than a few places most American golf travelers have never heard of:

Summer fees:

Scotscraig -- 65-80 GBP with annual subscription of 580
Brora -- 49-55 GBP with annual subscription 360
Tain -- 50 GBP with annual subscription 400
Royal Duff House -- 40-45 GBP with annual subscription 425
Golspie 45-55 GBP with annual subscription 345
RDC -- 120 GBP with annual subscription of ~500

All of them with annuals of less than 10 times a daily.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that clubs with green fees like that are getting much of their visitor income from Scots.  If they were, they wouldn't be letting visitors play in their open comps for half what a daily green fee is.


Compare those to Cullen with a 18 GBP green fee and 360 annual

K

Ken

I've played all those bar Golspie (apart from one hole with a club borrowed from Robin Hiseman) and pretty sure I didn't pay anything like those fees with the exception of a visit to Brora as part of a party organised by someone else. When you live locally, and that really means in Scotland, you can pick and choose when you play to a certain extent or to put it another way, you can go where the bargains are. At some point there will be bargains on most any course and I can assure you that the locals most certainly do play all over on different courses.

As an aside Duff House Royal is the only one of the above courses that isn't a links. Golspie is a part links. DHR is the best MacKenzie course in Scotland in the sense that its probably the least meddled with. I've played DHR about half a dozen times and don't think I've paid more than £12 a round.

As for those headline visitor fees, I suspect that pretty well every course around Glasgow and Edinburgh would be in that sort of range, and all get visitors at some point, and as I said before very few Americans. Mind you subs are probably at £800 to £1,000 for most.


Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

.....I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal...... 

Ciao   

Absolutely. I've never quite understood the reluctance of a club to, as I see it, have 601 members for the price of 600.

It's fine until an existing member wins the open comp - not an uncommon occurrence given the home advantage.

Then you have 600 members for the price of 599...

[Tony_Muldoon]

.....I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal...... 

Ciao   

Absolutely. I've never quite understood the reluctance of a club to, as I see it, have 601 members for the price of 600.

It's fine until an existing member wins the open comp - not an uncommon occurrence given the home advantage.

Then you have 600 members for the price of 599...

Agreed.  Do members pay the same fee for Opens as visitors?   If the entry is free for memebrs it might be hard for visitors to find a spare slot.

[Thomas Dai]

The clubs that run Open Comps tend to run numerous Open Comps, sometimes they even hold golf weeks.

There are men's/junior/senior/ladies singles, men's/seniors/ladies pairs, men's/seniors/ladies 4 ball team, mixed pairs or mixed 3-4 team Open Comps. Plus mens/seniors/ladies member-guest events. That's an awful lot of memberships to give away.

Taking all these into consideration you could have 625 memberships for the price of 600. So I'm not in favour of the suggestion made above. Prizes for Open Comps are fine as they are IMO, but with the proceeds to be kept within the golf business. There is a lot of opportunity to experience golf at other courses out there are very good prices or even for free, I really don't think we need to be giving away free memberships as prizes or have I somehow got the wrong end of the free membership stick.

We also need to remember that in the UK, I can't speak for the RoW, there are multiple team matches between clubs - often 10-12-16 per side - mens/ladies/seniors/junior/mixed - and the golf is free as matches are annually/biannually reciprocal (food is normally paid for) so the if more opportunities to play other at other coureses for little financial outlay. There are also home clubs comps where the winners qualify for later rounds of tournaments or even separate tournaments at other clubs, and these are normally free to play in to.

As to the query about the price of entry to Open Comps, in my experience, sometimes it's a different price for members and those from other clubs, sometimes it's the same price, although usually it seems the member pays a lower entry fee.

atb

[Sean_A]

.....I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal...... 

Ciao   

Absolutely. I've never quite understood the reluctance of a club to, as I see it, have 601 members for the price of 600.

It's fine until an existing member wins the open comp - not an uncommon occurrence given the home advantage.

Then you have 600 members for the price of 599...

Easily sorted an rather obviously so 

1. Prizes are selected by order of placement.  Whoever comes first gets first choice etc etc. 

2. Unless a club is full of idiots, it is obvious that it isn't in a member's interest to win membership for the remainder of the year since he is already a member.

3. The membership is classed as country so all restrictions apply.

Some clubs don't allow members to sign up for opens until a certain date which allows visitors ample time to register.  Usually, members play opens at a cheaper price.  Though, I could never quite get my head around members wanting to play in their own opens. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Spangles

I can understand mid-week opens or opens on bank holidays when the membership can still play the weekend.  But, the take has to be serious to be worthwhile.  Beau runs excellent opens at £40 a pop.  The tee times are booked for at least six hours straight.  Thats probably something like at least £5500 for the club and £3-4000 for catering...on a down day for members.  That open can pay for the membership being 5 light on the year without the comm having to listen to those five whinge about stuff    Beau runs 5 of these days and a few smaller ones.  That is serious money to bring in without interfering with weekend golf.  I suspect not much membership recruiting goes on, but it is a great time to do so.  I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.*  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal. 

Ciao   


* Note terms and conditions apply

Sean I've taken the liberty of amending your original post!

So a winner gets not a years membership, but the remainder of that year?  My London Club subscription year runs from 01 09th. 


Back to the drawing board with this one.

[Rich Goodale]

How quaint is it for English golf clubs to give out memberships as prizes!  I've never played in an English Open, but I've played in over 100 Opens in Scotland over the past 33 years, and for at least the last 1/2 of that time, all prizes have been in the form of vouchers, rather than goods or services.  I hope to play Fraserburgh some day, possibly in an Open, but if they try to fob me off with a membership rather than it's cash equivalent, I'm nae playing!  What good would it do me to have a membership at a club over 3 hours drive from my house just outside of Edinburgh, particularly when I can spend a similar time in the car driving to Dornoch where I already have a membership, and where the golf and the ambience is better (or so I have been told)?

[Thomas Dai]

I must say that I've never heard of giving out memberships as prizes but if it was suggested at a club I belong to, well let's just say I wouldn't too happy about it, and I don't think my fellow members would be either. 'Livid' might be a polite word of describing the feelings of some!

I have heard of a future-game prize occasionally being given as a secondary prize, say for a nearest the pin, where the recipient can come back and play the course with some mates in a 4-ball round at some time in the future or, sometimes if you buy a raffle ticket, perhaps a charity raffle, you may win a free 4-ball round to be played say sometime over the next 12 months or something similar. Sometimes such prizes are linked to having food in the clubhouse on the future visit.

Like Rich says, prizes in Open comps are normally vouchers (hopefully redeemable from the pro-shop, if not then hopefully from within the golf business) or else golf balls. Occasionally there might be a trophy but this seems to occur less and less often.

atb

[Niall C]

.....I always thought good prizes for these open comps was membership for a year.  It costs the club nothing and they may get easy new members out of the deal...... 

Ciao   

Absolutely. I've never quite understood the reluctance of a club to, as I see it, have 601 members for the price of 600.

It's fine until an existing member wins the open comp - not an uncommon occurrence given the home advantage.

Then you have 600 members for the price of 599...

I once played through in an Open day at a club in the NE of England and was second to the greenkeeper. Second prize was a voucher which they presented 5 minutes before the pro shop shut. A bit bizarre that the pro wouldn't stay open longer for a bit of business but in truth it didn't spoil the day as it was about playing a different course rather than winning prizes.

Niall

[Paul Gray]

......Like Rich says, prizes in Open comps are normally vouchers (hopefully redeemable from the pro-shop, if not then hopefully from within the golf business) or else golf balls. Occasionally there might be a trophy but this seems to occur less and less often.

atb

This, I appreciate, hardly comes as news but the old club Pro Shop is struggling these days. It's in a similar position to the village pub or village shop. For that reason, clubs have a habit of giving shop credit for nearly all prizes, be it an open or closed event. When I spent the summer in a Pro Shop the spending via vouchers was the difference between staying open and closing the shutters. If you want your shop to remain you have to support it.

[Thomas Dai]

This, I appreciate, hardly comes as news but the old club Pro Shop is struggling these days. It's in a similar position to the village pub or village shop. For that reason, clubs have a habit of giving shop credit for nearly all prizes, be it an open or closed event. When I spent the summer in a Pro Shop the spending via vouchers was the difference between staying open and closing the shutters. If you want your shop to remain you have to support it.

Absolutely. I've seen vouchers given as prizes for Marks and Spencers and John Lewis, which is dreadful. Keep the money within the GOLF business.

Support the pro-shop or one day there will be no pro-shop, and we easily forget the other little extras pro-shops provide, not just golf services like lessons or sales or repairs or helping fix up games for new members, visitors etc, but other things like providing first aid or even helping to prolong lives, and I've known it to happen, when folk have heart attacks or accidents on or around the course. This kinda thing that is easily forgotten, until it happens to you or a mate, and the age profile of folk at golf courses seems to be increasing all the time.

atb

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