[Terry Lavin]

Don't put yourself down, Terrence. However, personal responsibility and all that. The members have somehow shepherded their way through the first couple of hundred years or so. They'll battle on unimpeded by trivialities such as a lack of SEO.

I'm sure they will, especially with such warm and welcoming enthusiasts as yourself.

[Ryan Coles]

Haste ye back.

It is only sensible if Brora and co are looking for more overseas visitors. This is quite a contrast from needing crowd funding though.

[Jon Wiggett]

Just one small point which some seem to have overlooked. With Fraserburgh we know the Office Manager would like more greenfee players to boost funds but maybe the membership as a whole are happy with how it is now.

Jon

[Niall C]

Thomas - You are spot on with your circle. It is very important what else is pecking at the golfers in YOUR circle. The problem with links courses is that fish don't play golf so links golf courses are instantly disadvantaged.

Adrian

Call me obtuse if you will, and many would, but fish and golf ?

Niall

[Niall C]

"But this is evidence of what I think is an even sadder story, that SO MANY Scottish courses think that charging visitors (mostly from the US) extraordinary rates for a round of golf is the solution to the problems."

Ken

For a second there I'd forgotten that the world revolves around America. Thanks for reminding me 

Niall

Well, excuuuuse me.

I sure as hell don't think the world revolves around the U.S., but I stand by my statement that at least Brora and Fraserburgh are obsessed with the American "checklist."

I heard it firsthand.

Hell, Brora built a new tee on 11, "because Americans don't want to play a par 69."

Ken

So Brora and Fraserburgh constitutes SO MANY, does it ? And most of those visitors come from the US, do they ?

Can I suggest to you that there's a lot more to Scottish golf than the handful of A list courses. I suspect the vast majority of Scottish clubs rarely see an American and even when they do it's probably Rich Goodall.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas - You are spot on with your circle. It is very important what else is pecking at the golfers in YOUR circle. The problem with links courses is that fish don't play golf so links golf courses are instantly disadvantaged.

I know what you're getting at Adrain, for as I mentioned earlier, along the coast golfing circles become only a part-circles, and fish and Fraserburgh are particularly appropriate references too!.

Given it's particular location, right at the tip of what is usually termed 'the NE of Scotland', Fraserburgh's immediate circle is probably around 90*. Most links, but not all of them, would be more in the region of 180*, whereas most inland courses ought to be 360*.

It's particular location means it gets damn windy and damn cold too. A quite significant difference in the wind strength, and level of coldness too, IMO as you make your way going north up the east coast from the Firth of Forth to the Moray Firth.

Here's a Bing sat-map - http://binged.it/1wSnVBl and also worth incorporating this link to the clubs website - http://www.fraserburghgolfclub.org/

Interesting comments about how much play is on the other course at FGC, the 9-hole Rosehill course, as I'd always understood it to be a pretty poor relation to the main 18-hole Corbiehill course.

As to incorporating Fraserburgh into some kind of NE golf-group, with maybe a pre-purchased group discount card scheme like the Dornoch Firth pass or a different-course-each-day open tournament like some events in Ireland, that would seem like a damn good idea.

atb

[David_Tepper]

Niall & Ryan -

Would you not agree that the vast majority of golf clubs in Scotland would be delighted to see more visitor play and more country/overseas members, regardless of where the visitors come from? Isn't tourism one of the main drivers of the Scottish economy?

In addition to help keeping golf clubs solvent (and dues for the members modest), golf tourism is of enormous benefit to the townspeople who operate B&B's, hotels, restaurants, shops, etc. adjacent or nearby golf clubs. 

It is a "win-win" as far as I can see.

DT

[Ryan Coles]

Niall & Ryan -

Would you not agree that the vast majority of golf clubs in Scotland would be delighted to see more visitor play and more country/overseas members, regardless of where the visitors come from? Isn't tourism one of the main drivers of the Scottish economy?

In addition to help keeping golf clubs solvent (and dues for the members modest), golf tourism is of enormous benefit to the townspeople who operate B&B's, hotels, restaurants, shops, etc. adjacent or nearby golf clubs. 

It is a "win-win" as far as I can see.

DT

Yes, 100%.

Would you agree that the Clubs don't need to be 'acquired' by the GC Atlas Community? to be, as it was patronisingly put, 'brought back to life' and 'preserved' - the members have somehow done this for a couple of hundred years and seen a few ups and downs in that time.

[David_Tepper]

Ryan -

From time to time there has been talk here of the GCA community collectively funding a course.

I certainly did not find Ru Macdonald's comments to be patronizing in the way you have, especially as I am under the impression that he is from the UK himself. If I am mistaken about that, I am sure you or he will let me know.

As I stated earlier on this thread, the fact is there are many golf clubs in Scotland that operate on the narrowest of margins financially and are eager to see more visitor play and accept more country/overseas members.

If 20 or 30 GCA-ers decided to join Fraserburgh as a gesture of support, with no real expectation to ever get there to play it, I don't think that would be patronizing at all.

DT   

[Ryan Coles]

No, I don't either. Only that isn't what the original post says.

[Ru Macdonald]

No, I don't either. Only that isn't what the original post says.

Ryan, the original post as many have noted was written to draw attention to the drop in visitors which is vitally important to the club. 'Patronising' is very harsh. I'm a local concerned that a truly world class golf experience is facing times of austerity shortly after such great things were written on this very platform.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some things are not easy to talk about in a forum which is open to the world. Without naming names there are going to be a few great golf courses not make it over the next few years. Location is better than great. Sometimes you have to face the facts that not enough want to play the course and it might not be anything more than the logistics of not enough golfers in your circle.

There are no nice answers but the problem is often that a lot of golf clubs are not run as a business. You still need to run the golf club wisely and aim for profit even if you are a not for profit company, golf clubs need reserves and need to plan for a rainy day.

[Ru Macdonald]

Adrian, spot on. Scotland suffers greatly from this. Clubs supported by retired lawyers, accountants or engineers but making decisions about golf operations and marketing.

Some things are not easy to talk about in a forum which is open to the world. Without naming names there are going to be a few great golf courses not make it over the next few years. Location is better than great. Sometimes you have to face the facts that not enough want to play the course and it might not be anything more than the logistics of not enough golfers in your circle.

There are no nice answers but the problem is often that a lot of golf clubs are not run as a business. You still need to run the golf club wisely and aim for profit even if you are a not for profit company, golf clubs need reserves and need to plan for a rainy day.

[Paul Gray]

Adrian, spot on. Scotland suffers greatly from this. Clubs supported by retired lawyers, accountants or engineers but making decisions about golf operations and marketing.

Some things are not easy to talk about in a forum which is open to the world. Without naming names there are going to be a few great golf courses not make it over the next few years. Location is better than great. Sometimes you have to face the facts that not enough want to play the course and it might not be anything more than the logistics of not enough golfers in your circle.

There are no nice answers but the problem is often that a lot of golf clubs are not run as a business. You still need to run the golf club wisely and aim for profit even if you are a not for profit company, golf clubs need reserves and need to plan for a rainy day.

Ru,

It's not limited to Scotland and it's not a new phenomena.

[Ru Macdonald]

Ru,

It's not limited to Scotland and it's not a new phenomena.
[/quote]

Noted Paul but are you more likely to see a General Manager/ Director of Golf role out with Uk?

[Mark Pavy]

I'd second Doak's suggestion of marketing a group of courses as a destination. I'd also suggest you put the bight on the local tourist mob to kick in as well.
Look to build the destination brand over the long term. Competition for the golf tourist dollar is fierce, it's a global market.

[Paul Gray]

Ru,

It's not limited to Scotland and it's not a new phenomena.

Noted Paul but are you more likely to see a General Manager/ Director of Golf role out with Uk?
[/quote]

Well I'm only really talking about England but most private clubs down here are not run by people from a golfing background. The secretary/manager might well be but good luck finding a committee member with a background in the game.

[David_Tepper]

Ru M. -

Perhaps several of clubs along the Moray coastline could get together to offer a "Moray Firth Golf Pass," similar to what has been done up around Dornoch.

http://www.dornochfirthgolf.co.uk/default.php

DT

[Garland Bayley]

...
They are also nowhere on Google when searching for golf in the area.

 
Every golf site found has them, often with one of the top ratings.

I will admit you didn't find them on golfnow.com. 

Note the specific reference to google and searching by location.....

Aberdeen or Aberdeenshire. They're not on the first 2 pages.

I searched by Aberdeenshire. Their website may not show up in the first two pages, but that is not a matter of them marketing the course.
What shows up are websites dedicated to golf courses, usually with a website ranking of the courses. Fraserburgh shows up on all these websites, usually with one of the top rankings. Who is going to bother scrolling through pages of search results looking at individual course websites? People are going to search for golf in Aberdeenshire, and examine attractive courses as indicated by, and linked to from the golf dedicated websites found.

[Joe_Tucholski]

What sort of costs is Fraserburgh not able to make payments on, staffing?  The discussion on adding additional staff in order to increase revenue and offset the fact that they are barely able to pay the current staff is a tough choice to make.  I really enjoyed my time playing the course, at 40 pounds it was a good experience.  I liked walking into the clubhouse and seeing locals in a community center looking room with a bar tender and then paying the office lady.  If the course were to bring in a director of golf or marketing director I think that feel would be lost.  Maybe it's best that feeling is lost in order for the course to survive.  I don't have access to the costs and revenue to make a determination on the best course of action.

[Ryan Coles]

...
They are also nowhere on Google when searching for golf in the area.

 
Every golf site found has them, often with one of the top ratings.

I will admit you didn't find them on golfnow.com.  

Note the specific reference to google and searching by location.....

Aberdeen or Aberdeenshire. They're not on the first 2 pages.

I searched by Aberdeenshire. Their website may not show up in the first two pages, but that is not a matter of them marketing the course.
What shows up are websites dedicated to golf courses, usually with a website ranking of the courses. Fraserburgh shows up on all these websites, usually with one of the top rankings. Who is going to bother scrolling through pages of search results looking at individual course websites? People are going to search for golf in Aberdeenshire, and examine attractive courses as indicated by, and linked to from the golf dedicated websites found.

SEO is marketing. They need to get their website on page 1 as you basically say above. No one is scrolling to page 4 etc.  Lumphanan is a little course with a website that is optimised far better. It all helps, I don't believe there is a magic wand in marketing golf clubs in a competitive market, just lots of little bits of effort that add up.

[Rich Goodale]

Ru M. -

Perhaps several of clubs along the Moray coastline could get together to offer a "Moray Firth Golf Pass," similar to what has been done up around Dornoch.

http://www.dornochfirthgolf.co.uk/default.php

DT

David

There has been a Moray Golf Pass for well over 20 years.  Unfortunately, Fraserburgh is in Aberdeenshire, not Moray.

Rich

[Ken Moum]

"But this is evidence of what I think is an even sadder story, that SO MANY Scottish courses think that charging visitors (mostly from the US) extraordinary rates for a round of golf is the solution to the problems."

Ken

For a second there I'd forgotten that the world revolves around America. Thanks for reminding me 

Niall

Well, excuuuuse me.

I sure as hell don't think the world revolves around the U.S., but I stand by my statement that at least Brora and Fraserburgh are obsessed with the American "checklist."

I heard it firsthand.

Hell, Brora built a new tee on 11, "because Americans don't want to play a par 69."

Ken

So Brora and Fraserburgh constitutes SO MANY, does it ? And most of those visitors come from the US, do they ?

Can I suggest to you that there's a lot more to Scottish golf than the handful of A list courses. I suspect the vast majority of Scottish clubs rarely see an American and even when they do it's probably Rich Goodall.

Niall

Okay, I shouldn't have use that term.  But nicking my language isn't  going to change the fact that courses in Scotland are worrying about visitor income, members and club employees specifically talked about it with me last summer.

I will say that your point about the other clubs is dead on. And it's exactly why hearing those comments saddens me.

They have wonderful courses and shouldn't need American money to survive. But things are tough all over the golf business these days.

K

[David_Tepper]

"There has been a Moray Golf Pass for well over 20 years.  Unfortunately, Fraserburgh is in Aberdeenshire, not Moray."

Rich -

Thanks for the geography lesson! In that case, just call it "the North Coast Golf Pass." Include Fraserburgh, Duff House Royal, Inverallochy & Royal Tarlair.

DT

 

[jeffwarne]

What sort of costs is Fraserburgh not able to make payments on, staffing?  The discussion on adding additional staff in order to increase revenue and offset the fact that they are barely able to pay the current staff is a tough choice to make.  I really enjoyed my time playing the course, at 40 pounds it was a good experience.  I liked walking into the clubhouse and seeing locals in a community center looking room with a bar tender and then paying the office lady.  If the course were to bring in a director of golf or marketing director I think that feel would be lost.  Maybe it's best that feeling is lost in order for the course to survive.  I don't have access to the costs and revenue to make a determination on the best course of action.

Speaking as a Director of Golf,
the WORST possible thing they can do is bring in a Director of Golf or worse yet a marketing director .
The additional incremental  revenues wouldn't come close to the additional costs.
That doesn't mean they couldn't cleverly and economically improve their marketing with existing overhead.

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