Biased for Life?

[Mark_Fine]

Before going off on their own, many golf architects tend to study/work under another architect to "learn the business".  As a result, are they biased for life as far as their design style/philosophies?  Is it kind of like your golf swing; once you develop one, it is very hard to change it!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

YES,

Although, Kelly Blake Moran is the exception to the rule.

[RJ_Daley]

As near as I can tell, Jack didn't take after Des or Pete or RB.  I am waiting to see if there is any Dye like influence at Doak's Texas Tech,  I sure didn't notice any at High Point, or in pictures of his other work.  But, the historical obvious bias is Seth and Steamshovel picking up the themes of CB.  Of the one Bobby Weed I have seen, I can see where he worked for Dye at one time and it shows.  

[MargaretC]

Artists who study the Masters can be said to be influenced by those they studied; however, overtime as they mature and have varied experience, I believe style evolves -- early work Vs later work.

[hpembroke]

I have been a long time lurker and this thread has my interest peaked, especially Mr Mucci’s response.  So I have signed up and decided to jump in the deep end rather than just get my feet wet!!

Mr Mucci,

Your reply of “YES” has me curious.  Obviously you have no doubt and wanted to make that clear by capitalizing it, and since you pointed out that Mr Moran was “the” exception and not “an” exception you are therefore inferring that he is the only one that is not biased based on their training.  Based on these points I have a couple of questions I would like for you to answer, if you don't mind of course.

a) Do you know every architect that learned from someone else and have since gone out to practice on his own?

b) If a) happens to be yes, have you played/seen a large percentage of the body of work of every architect in a) to get a feel for his/her style and also a large percentage of his/her mentors work to allow you to make a valid comparison of styles that would enable you to make the ill-informed and sweeping statement of “YES” that you made above”?

[Mark_Fine]

This question was not meant to imply a negative.  I was just wondering what people thought.  

Pat, I think Kelly may beg to differ with you a little bit.  I recall him saying at the Alpine meeting he has spent most of his time since he started on his own, trying to unlearn what he learned in the past.  

[Forrest Richardson]

MargaretC is correct. A true artist takes the good things he/she learns and blends it into their own sense of flair and approach. I learned from Arthur Jack Snyder, but I doubt that many of my recent designs look like Jack's. But, caught somewhere in their are some quirks, lessons, hints and educated decisions that are part of Jack's "Design DNA".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hpembroke,

As the twig bendith, so groweth the tree.

To deny influence or the absence of continuity between the teacher and the student would be unrealistic.

How long would a pupil last in his apprentice capacity if his style was in direct conflict with that of his mentor's ?

The day after his release, when he goes out on his own, it is doubtful that he has an epiphany that cleanses his earlier teachings and experiences, arriving at a disconnected architectural style.

"The Golden Age of Golf Design" provides a look at the evolutionary process between teachers and pupils over the years.

Those familiar with Kelly Blake Moran understand the statement.

Sometimes common sense isn't so common.

Mark Fine,

Kelly was quite clear in that in his early years, working for his former firm, he manufactured golf courses.  He indicated that he went through a metamorphisis on a certain hole on a project he was working on, that he had a moment of clarity that forever changed his design principles.

But, I'll let Kelly speak for himself.

Forrest Richardson,

Architects evolve over tiime, but the influence of their mentor in their early days would more then likely be stronger, then 10 years removed from their seperation date.

[Forrest Richardson]

I agree with you Pat, but how do you know this? I assume it is just from observation...? Or, are you here from another life?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest Richardson,

It came to me in a nightmare.

As punishment for knowing more than he does,
TEPaul was force feeding me giant marshmellows ....
and when I woke up,
all of my pillows were gone.

[Forrest Richardson]

That's funny. I had a similar dream, only it was Tommy N. singing "It Went Straight Down the Middle". Only not in Bing's voice, but that of Rees Jones.

I'm pretty much recovered now.

[Neal_Meagher]

Mr. Fine:

Are architects biased for life to repeat the same or similar design stylings of their mentors?  NO.

Mr. Mucci:

Yes, epiphanies can occur to change and to challenge designers viewpoints more than you can possibly ever know.  I believe you've met a certain Armenian who stands for impossibly pure golden age standards.  How can one spend any time at all with this individual and not question design stylings and philosophies?

As Forrest states, some vestiges of his former mentor finds its way into his present day work, and that is fine.  But, please be aware that anyone in any field who yearns to grow and to come into their own in their own way, must go beyond their lineage.

This doesn't mean to ignore it, but sometimes growth is long and painful.  Just like golf on certain days.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Other than Raynor and Macdonald what are other examples of student emulating teacher?