Stephen Kay on Range Design

[Ed Brzezowski]

Good Lord, who let Kay into this nuthouse?

[D_Malley]

Don't get me wrong here. I have no current problem with someone using their own balls on the putting green or at the chipping area. The problem is when they bring their own balls to hit out on the range. This practice is very common and when confronted the person will say that they are doing you a favor by supplying you with additional practice balls. I always like to ask them if they bring their own appetizers when they go out to eat.

I also have a very hard time justifying spending money on upgrading practice facilities when there is a perception that people think they should be able to use it for free. This particularily applies when cosidering a new short game area at a public facility.

Can anyone give any examples of a public short game area that is profitable?

[Bill Seitz]

IIRC, the ASGCA had a number of model or template practice range conceptual drawings in the 90s.

I suppose customs are different in various parts of the golf world, but here it is totally customary and normal at public courses, even daily fee courses to pay for buckets at the range and use your own shag bag at short game green/bunkers and putting green.

I did this at Ravisloe a few years ago and was told to leave by an overzealous marshall, who told me I was only allowed to use their decidedly average at best range balls on the chipping facility.  It was very frustrating.  I showed up and hit two buckets of balls that I paid for, then grabbed my shag bag to use their chipping area (which is, or at least was, pretty nice).  This was on a day where I was the only customer in sight.  I wrote a letter to their head pro (no response) and refused to go back for a few years until reluctantly agreeing to join some GCAers.  The really stupid thing about the situation was that if I'd bought a bucket of balls, I could have used the chipping area for hours, then picked them up and hit them at the range, and they would have been perfectly fine with that. 

Generally, I think if you expect people to pay to use the putting green and short game areas for practice, you should tell them.  Whether the price of admission is a round of golf, a bucket of balls, or just some user fee, let the customer know.  Personally I feel obligated to spend some money if I'm using someone's facilities, so I'd probably at least hit a bucket of balls as well, but plenty of people probably don't feel the same way, and that's perfectly fine.  The course should just be up front about it.

[Stephen Kay]

Someone asked why we used green mix for the target greens.  The superintendent Matt Willigan (who was the assistant when I renovated Llanerch) want green mix because he is maintaining the target greens at I think .250 (that is the height of greens when I was a super in the mid 1970's).

[jeffwarne]

Don't get me wrong here. I have no current problem with someone using their own balls on the putting green or at the chipping area. The problem is when they bring their own balls to hit out on the range. This practice is very common and when confronted the person will say that they are doing you a favor by supplying you with additional practice balls. I always like to ask them if they bring their own appetizers when they go out to eat.

I also have a very hard time justifying spending money on upgrading practice facilities when there is a perception that people think they should be able to use it for free. This particularily applies when cosidering a new short game area at a public facility.

Can anyone give any examples of a public short game area that is profitable?

D Malley,
When I was at St. Andrew's this past summer, they charged an hourly rate for the short game area.
They were happy to supply balls and/or a shag bag, and you were welcome to use either.
I actually took the shag bag and 25 balls, and also used 15 of my own balls.
I thought it was an outstanding arrangement, and amazingly inexpensive (even moreso because they only charged me for the first hour and I was there 2-3 hours each day)
Would've happily paid more and i fact tried to pay for my additional time but they wouldn't accept it.
I find much better value in a good short game area than a range, and would pay for it.

[Lou_Duran]

Someone asked why we used green mix for the target greens.  The superintendent Matt Willigan (who was the assistant when I renovated Llanerch) want green mix because he is maintaining the target greens at I think .250 (that is the height of greens when I was a super in the mid 1970's).

Is this the same Stephen Kay who renovated Sewane?  Enjoyed the course very much.  Anyone know what's happened to Jason Blasberg (my host at Sewane and former GCAer?

Bill Seitz,

You told the scolding marshal that you already paid for range balls?  What I've seen any number of times at various daily fee courses are people who buy nothing at the course, hit their own balls on the chipping and putting greens, and sometimes scavenge range balls from the practice areas to hit on the range.  It was not unusual to have a couple guys hanging around the driving range and pounce on any balls left by a departing golfer.  The few courses I've seen that had a short game area and charged by the hour, I doubt that they recouped the cost of surveillance.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I would pay alot of money to spend the day on the short game area at Dallas National.
$100 for the day just leave ma alone and I would be like a pig in slop.
There Lou....I have said something very positive about  tom Fazio design

Actually played DN alot this past year it grows on me, love the new work on #18

[Lou_Duran]

I would pay alot of money to spend the day on the short game area at Dallas National.
$100 for the day just leave ma alone and I would be like a pig in slop.
There Lou....I have said something very positive about  tom Fazio design

Actually played DN alot this past year it grows on me, love the new work on #18

Can't imagine a DN-like practice facility as part of a daily fee but it should would be nice.  Tierra Verde in Arlington (city owned) has a good range, so-so putting green, but really good three hole practice facility (one par 3, 4, 5).  The latter has an extra fee, but for some high school teams and a few annual pass members, it seems to be mostly unused.

I haven't played DN this year but a member friend called a few weeks back with a report on everything going on there.  Currently, they are discussing bunker work, apparently having tested the Ohio and Arkansas Prime sands and opting for the latter.  The more I play the course the greater appreciation I have for it.

As to your estimation of Fazio's work, neither he or I lose much sleep over it.  Golf is a big world and I've been around long enough to know that much more goes into our evaluations than what ultimately is created on the ground.  The main thing is to enjoy the game and you and I both seem to do so very much.  I do wish I could have but some of your length.  Getting shorter by the day.

[Bill_McBride]

I would pay alot of money to spend the day on the short game area at Dallas National.
$100 for the day just leave ma alone and I would be like a pig in slop.
There Lou....I have said something very positive about  tom Fazio design

Actually played DN alot this past year it grows on me, love the new work on #18

Can't imagine a DN-like practice facility as part of a daily fee but it should would be nice.  Tierra Verde in Arlington (city owned) has a good range, so-so putting green, but really good three hole practice facility (one par 3, 4, 5).  The latter has an extra fee, but for some high school teams and a few annual pass members, it seems to be mostly unused.

I haven't played DN this year but a member friend called a few weeks back with a report on everything going on there.  Currently, they are discussing bunker work, apparently having tested the Ohio and Arkansas Prime sands and opting for the latter.  The more I play the course the greater appreciation I have for it.

As to your estimation of Fazio's work, neither he or I lose much sleep over it.  Golf is a big world and I've been around long enough to know that much more goes into our evaluations than what ultimately is created on the ground.  The main thing is to enjoy the game and you and I both seem to do so very much.  I do wish I could have but some of your length.  Getting shorter by the day.

Lou, you are only feeling shorter because you played with Long Keith Kirkendall recently!

[Lou_Duran]

No Bill.  I am painfully reminded each day I play as my approaches are getting longer and longer.  For all the talk of firm and fast, I am just not seeing much of that, or maybe my shots just don't have any pop.  I admire the old guys who still bust it.  Maybe I need to spend some of my range time in the gym.  Did Stephen Kay design any of those?