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Brian Hilko

  • Karma: +0/-0
Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« on: October 23, 2014, 04:53:31 PM »
I was surprised to see Erin Hills ranked as the 10th best public in the country by Golf Digest. I have always loved the feel of the place. I love the understated feel of the cottages and the clubhouse. I love the maintenance practices, and I found the staff to be fantastic but the golf course has always disappointed me. The course looks like it would put a premium on the ground game but asks you to hit aerial shot after aerial shot. For a walking only facility I consider it to be one of the worst routed courses I have ever played. Number 8 center line bunkers short of the green make the hole almost impossible for the average golfer to hit in two. Number 4 also had the same problem. Is driver really an option for a good player at number 2 and 15? Both these holes feel one dimensional for short par 4s. I do enjoy a few holes. I think number 10, 14, and 16 are very solid holes but I have never been blown away at any point in the round. For those of you who really love Erin Hills please tell me why. I want to love the place. I enjoy the current course more than the original. Unfortunately, I still get that feeling what could of been if someone else was selected to build on this property.
Down with the brown

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 05:53:31 PM »
Different strokes for different folks. They built the course they wanted to build and the USGA likes it enough to host a US Open. I'd say they're progressing nicely with their business model.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2014, 06:18:38 PM »
I enjoyed it very much.  A really good golf course on a great piece of property.  My only major complaint was the fescue that essentially served as out of bounds because no ball could ever be found - but I hear they got that under control.

You just reminded me, I need to play it again.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 08:55:13 AM »
Brian:

Aside of Merion-East ;D ??? ::), I'm not sure there has been a course more thoroughly examined and dissected on this site than Erin Hills. To wit:

Ran's profile: http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/erin-hills/

Ran's post on the discussion board announcing the above profile, which generated some good discussion about the course: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56817.0.html

Various threads and photo tours of EH:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53240.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html (the author of this thread recommends clicking on it to access previous, earlier threads on the course ;))

A thread on the 2011 US Amateur held there, with some architectural comments interspersed among various comments:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49372.0.html

I don't think your comments are all that off the mark -- I found the routing to be dis-orienting and not very intuitive, and you note the incongruity of a links-like course forcing a bunch of aerial shots. But, this was a course that from its initial iteration was intended to host majors -- it's meant to be a really tough course, so features like the center bunker on 8 (maybe the toughest approach shot on the course) are there for a purpose.

I agree about the amenities -- a real highlight of the operation.

Joel Pear

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 09:10:47 AM »
I've only played the course once, and really enjoyed the amenities, too.  FWIW, the brat at the halfway house was the best brat I've ever had, bar none.  What really impressed me was the scale of the place.  It is a big, brawny course on a big, brawny property.  I walked and carried and what really stuck out to me was it seemed like every tee was an uphill trek from the previous green.

Is it a top 10 public course?  I really haven't played enough of the public courses around the country to make that kind of determination, but it was fun to test my game at the same venue the world's bet amateurs competed, and the world's best pros will compete.  I certainly felt I got my money's worth.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 09:40:00 AM »
Brian,

I thought 2 was a great hole before they softened the green.  Driver or 3 wood was an option although not necessarily the best one.  Like 14 at Bandon Trails, political correctness (and retail golfer $$$s) will eventually kill most edgy public design (and a lot of private too).  A very long walk in the summer heat though.  Now's the time to play it, but for my money and game I'll take Lawsonia every time unless a day trip is all I can muster.  I do prefer it to Whistling Straights however.  At least I did in prior iterations.  I've only partially seen the "new" course, haven't played it and may not bother.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 09:59:06 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 09:45:22 AM »
Different strokes for different folks. They built the course they wanted to build and the USGA likes it enough to host a US Open. I'd say they're progressing nicely with their business model.

Maybe, but it isn't the first owner who is reaping the rewards.

Mike Treitler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 09:55:13 AM »
I have to agree with Hilko on this one.  With all of that land I can't say there is a truly great golf hole on the entire property.

Erin hills is a very good course that I would happily play any day, however, I believe the #10 ranking has everything to do with the fact that it's hosting an open.  It's a mish mash of decent holes without any defining playability characteristics as already noted by having to hit Ariel shots on a links course.  

I have it #39 in my rankings but I agree with Hilko that it could have been so much better with a different designer.

And now they charge 225 for a round... Kind of absurd.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 10:20:46 AM »
I just played last week and the course has made tremendous strides forward under the new management team.  The conditioning now is simply superb.  The fescue fairways were excellent, the native areas under control compared to how unruly they were in the past, the bunker edges have matured and almost all the trees are gone. The overall aesthetic is greatly improved.  The new third green is excellent.  The routing of the front nine is still awkward with too many uphill walks to tees, long walks between holes and too many uphill approaches, but the back nine IMHO is quite good. I really enjoy the stretch between 12 and 15, followed by a tough finish.  The glacial nature of the land gives it a unique character.   A couple of new tees on the front nine would make the course much more friendly to the walker.  I'd love to see them put one on the flat area behind the second green as I think 3 would play great from that level. Its definitely more challenging than fun with an emphasis on length and precision but that type of course has its place.   And EH has tremendous elasticity which is why I think it will a fantastic US Open course.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 11:17:03 AM »
I still want to know why I could use a trolley at Muirfield, but not at EH. And don't tell me to carry my bag, I'm too damn old and feeble for that. Just don't understand the objection, so I'll spend my money in Green Lake...

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 11:18:26 AM »
Different strokes for different folks. They built the course they wanted to build and the USGA likes it enough to host a US Open. I'd say they're progressing nicely with their business model.

Maybe, but it isn't the first owner who is reaping the rewards.

True that. The second guy's business plan is always better than the first, dontcha think?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 11:31:53 AM »
Different strokes for different folks. They built the course they wanted to build and the USGA likes it enough to host a US Open. I'd say they're progressing nicely with their business model.

Maybe, but it isn't the first owner who is reaping the rewards.

True that. The second guy's business plan is always better than the first, dontcha think?

Evaporation of current debt always makes a business model look good. Instant IQ raiser.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 11:38:41 AM »
Why would you call out the Erin Hills supporters in light of the course being ranked #10 public in Golf Digest? Clearly the burden of proof is on the detractors.

I am happy to see my longtime support of the course confirmed by such an esteemed authority as Golf Digest, and I feel bad for those whose tastes aren't refined enough to grasp its appeal.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2014, 01:24:52 PM »
I've always thought Erin Hills looked a lot better than it actually played.

I've only been there twice, however, I feel the routing is disjointed and the walk is extremely demanding.  I think it is a good golf course, but not a top 10 public golf course.

Just off the top of my head, I would put these public courses ahead of Erin Hills...

Pebble Beach
Whistling Straits
Blackwolf Run River
The four courses at Bandon
The two courses at Streamsong
Greywalls
Black Mesa
Pasatiempo....

« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 01:31:10 PM by Jim Tang »

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2014, 02:49:08 PM »
I've always thought Erin Hills looked a lot better than it actually played.

I've only been there twice, however, I feel the routing is disjointed and the walk is extremely demanding.  I think it is a good golf course, but not a top 10 public golf course.

Just off the top of my head, I would put these public courses ahead of Erin Hills...

Pebble Beach
Whistling Straits
Blackwolf Run River
The four courses at Bandon
The two courses at Streamsong
Greywalls
Black Mesa
Pasatiempo....



So off the top of your head you're moving it down to ... #13?

I don't know if this is a top 10 course or not, but a lot of this is splitting hairs anyway. If you look at the point totals, Erin Hills is ahead of the next 6 courses on the list (Spyglass, Old Mac, Arcadia, Blackwolf River, Karsten Creek, Bandon Trails) by less than 1.5 points. Shout;don't the real question be whether it belongs in this group of courses? If it does, then it's pretty academic as to whether it's #10 or #15 (not to the courses themselves, but as a mathematical exercise).

Also, the list does not include the Streaming courses. It's yet to be seen where they will fall.

Brad Hill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2014, 06:36:11 PM »
Brian,

I don't disagree it's a difficult walk but it makes the beer afterwards that much better. I do, however, disagree it calls for aerial shot after aerial shot. Granted 4, 8, and most of the 3 pars do. Hole 1 demands a running shot from the right. Holes 5, 11, 12, 14, and 17 allow a bounding ball from the left each requiring different momentum. Most holes do make you carry some of the approach but do allow for a ball to bound on to the putting surface. Great shot variety in my opinion. Last time I played it the winds were nearly 30 mph, partly thanks to all the tree removal, putting a premium on a lower ball flight and a good ground game.
Hole 4 is one of my favorites on the course. It requires you to get aggressive off the tee and get as close as possible to the middle fairway bunker, so you can get a lofted enough club to hold that shallow green. Hole 8 is a beast even with a good drive. That large backstop over the green slows down the longer club that most likely be needed to fly those front traps.
On hole 2 driver is a great option for the good player or for the average one with the right wind on the right tee box. I played with a woman, who was not long by anyone's standards, carry the fairway bunker and ride the slope down into the green side bunker. To me it's not one dimensional at all, yet the pin positions on its tiny green might be. Not sure about driver on 15.
I agree with Dan that the uniqueness of the terrain makes it a special place with strong character.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 03:16:40 PM »
Here is an interview from September with the Whitten, Hurdzan, and Fry from the US Open media day at Erin Hills.  The three guys cover a lot of ground from the initial design of the course, the changes made over the years, and how involved the USGA has been.  Very interesting talk.


http://intheclubhouse.libsyn.com/dr-michael-hurdzan-dana-fry-ron-whitten-erin-hills-course-architects




Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 04:26:31 PM »
I still want to know why I could use a trolley at Muirfield, but not at EH. And don't tell me to carry my bag, I'm too damn old and feeble for that. Just don't understand the objection, so I'll spend my money in Green Lake...


Because trolleys are for hackers, not the distinguished type that use caddies at a... public course...

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2016, 12:47:03 PM »
It's really good.  Just ain't no Sand Valley... :0
I still like Greywalls better.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2016, 04:19:28 PM »
I still want to know why I could use a trolley at Muirfield, but not at EH. And don't tell me to carry my bag, I'm too damn old and feeble for that. Just don't understand the objection, so I'll spend my money in Green Lake...

+1....esp on a course with that long if a walk
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2016, 10:44:45 AM »
x
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 12:48:15 PM by PThomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2016, 12:34:04 PM »
Would a push cart really be helpful on a course as hilly and unmanicured as Erin Hills? I don't use one so I wouldn't know, but I can't imagine trying to roll down from 3 tee, for instance. My experience is that a lot of courses with uniquely rugged terrain don't allow push carts for practical reasons rather than the appearance concerns that are often voiced at old country clubs.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2016, 01:31:53 PM »
Here is an interview from September with the Whitten, Hurdzan, and Fry from the US Open media day at Erin Hills.  The three guys cover a lot of ground from the initial design of the course, the changes made over the years, and how involved the USGA has been.  Very interesting talk.


http://intheclubhouse.libsyn.com/dr-michael-hurdzan-dana-fry-ron-whitten-erin-hills-course-architects

thanks Joe

love the comments from those 3  8) 8)

having played EH a couple times...I know it is a hike, and not push cart friendly...the glacial land formations are largely untouched providing a massive scale to the course with perched tees and greens

should look great on TV
It's all about the golf!

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2016, 02:18:32 PM »
Played it this summer and I thought it was a terrific course. My only knock against it would be the fescue was too close to the fairways. Very tough to find and advance your ball. Lack of run up shots didn't register as a problem. I think the flat bellies will find it very challenging come June.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calling out the the Erin Hills supporters
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2016, 07:03:25 PM »
Would a push cart really be helpful on a course as hilly and unmanicured as Erin Hills? I don't use one so I wouldn't know, but I can't imagine trying to roll down from 3 tee, for instance. My experience is that a lot of courses with uniquely rugged terrain don't allow push carts for practical reasons rather than the appearance concerns that are often voiced at old country clubs.

When I asked the reason why, I was told they didn't like the appearance. There was nothing said about any practical reason. As for whether or not a push cart would be helpful, if the alternative is trying to lug a bag of clubs the answer is an unequivocal yes -- and I have no desire to pay $100 for someone to carry my clubs. I will instead spend my golf dollars at Sand Valley or Lawsonia...