Will there ever be a Greens Firmness Race?

[BCowan]

Will clubs/courses ever start competing to have the firmest greens?  Of course design should be taken into account, but it seldom is with green contours in regards to speed.  I'm thinking no, but we can dream can't we?  TruFirm and the Clegg Soil Impact
Tester as an example.  

[/color]

Dream!!.....Whats the point of comparing firmness and how would it benefit the future of the game?? It would get the average private club member to start wanting firmer greens due to making a competition out of it.   
After reading this thread I think I've come to the conclusion that too many people who play golf are just a bunch of awful pansies! 
The only pansie is you. 
 I can't chip on soft greens, the speed of greens were different from last week, the bunker sand is too soft, this holes too hard, I didn't get enough roll yada yada yada. This isn't Seinfield and my bunker game is great.
Maybe your just not very good! What does how good have anything to do with firmness?
Just go enjoy your time outside, typcially playing on a visably pleasing, serene piece of ground and then you can go home and kick your dog.  They have parks for that.
JC, you play a game outdoors that conditions can vary by the hour! 
Unless you wish to move to the five odd places on earth to offer perfect weather, soil and turf conditions then learn to play better shots or take up bowling.
Nope, real simple just irrigate when soil temp reaches a certain point.  That way we don't need $1 million dollar maint. budgets for coddled keepers riding around in their carryall's, JC

You need to come up with better crap than this, I'm sure your capable.  Read the other post, people saying that can't chip on soft greens, give me a break.  I prefer firm greens but as a player I know that soft greens are way easier to play on....watch a tour event soft greens mean low scores, your not very good if you can't score on soft conditions.....again I prefer firm but soft is easier.

Your soil temp irrigation argument is ridiculous. 

''I haven't turned a sprinkler on my course since early september to water in sand from aerating and your still not gonna get firm here right now.''

This wasn't directed at you.  We aren't talking about this past Oct when it has rained 80% of the time with cool temps.  We are talking about dry weather that isn't hot.  Lets use some common sense here, people understand mother nature.  Some keepers are better than others.  Go have some lettuce wraps!   

[BHoover]

Lettuce wraps?

When you say you want "firm and slow by today's standards" what do you mean? I'm not sure I've heard anyone else argue for firm and slow before.  I've obviously heard firm and fast, but not firm and slow. What speed would you consider ideal?

[Aaron McMaster]

Will clubs/courses ever start competing to have the firmest greens?  Of course design should be taken into account, but it seldom is with green contours in regards to speed.  I'm thinking no, but we can dream can't we?  TruFirm and the Clegg Soil Impact
Tester as an example.  

[/color]

Dream!!.....Whats the point of comparing firmness and how would it benefit the future of the game?? It would get the average private club member to start wanting firmer greens due to making a competition out of it.  
After reading this thread I think I've come to the conclusion that too many people who play golf are just a bunch of awful pansies!
The only pansie is you.  
 I can't chip on soft greens, the speed of greens were different from last week, the bunker sand is too soft, this holes too hard, I didn't get enough roll yada yada yada. This isn't Seinfield and my bunker game is great.
Maybe your just not very good! What does how good have anything to do with firmness?
Just go enjoy your time outside, typcially playing on a visably pleasing, serene piece of ground and then you can go home and kick your dog.  They have parks for that.
JC, you play a game outdoors that conditions can vary by the hour!  
Unless you wish to move to the five odd places on earth to offer perfect weather, soil and turf conditions then learn to play better shots or take up bowling.
Nope, real simple just irrigate when soil temp reaches a certain point.  That way we don't need $1 million dollar maint. budgets for coddled keepers riding around in their carryall's, JC

You need to come up with better crap than this, I'm sure your capable.  Read the other post, people saying that can't chip on soft greens, give me a break.  I prefer firm greens but as a player I know that soft greens are way easier to play on....watch a tour event soft greens mean low scores, your not very good if you can't score on soft conditions.....again I prefer firm but soft is easier.

Your soil temp irrigation argument is ridiculous.  

''I haven't turned a sprinkler on my course since early september to water in sand from aerating and your still not gonna get firm here right now.''

This wasn't directed at you.  We aren't talking about this past Oct when it has rained 80% of the time with cool temps.  We are talking about dry weather that isn't hot.  Lets use some common sense here, people understand mother nature.  Some keepers are better than others.  Go have some lettuce wraps!  

I know that you weren't, I was just making a point that during certain times of year or weather patterns your super just can't get things firm unless you want to spend ungodly sums of money and even then it isn't 100%.  Your aware I just got back from Ireland and all the courses were not firm and fast everyday in particular the greens at ballybunion weren't even close to that either day we played it and it was beautiful out.  Also, you don't need sand to have F&F, portmarnock is not on sand but since they have fescue fairways, (no carts or low rounds is only way this is doable), an ocean right next to it to provide a steady wind and year round moderate temps they roll out nicely since a fine fescue blade doesn't create much friction.  

You also know we have two awful peat bog fairways here that in order to make them play well, we have installed miles of drainage, a lift station that cost around the same as some peoples irrigation stations, along with topdressing those two fairways once a month.  We are in the upper 1% of budgets for clubs so we can pull it off but it's completely manufactured and most places couldn't do it.

In my 20 years of doing this the average golfer does not understand mother nature at all, shoot they think since it didn't rain it Birmingham it couldn't have possilbe rained an inch at Orchard Lake.  Ice damage this winter should have taught you this one.

Lastly, if it weren't for science and excellent turf people, not just supers but geneticist, professsors, grass farmers etc you wouldn't even the have the option of excellent hybrid bermuda firm greens in florida or texas.  God I remember the days of how bad playing florida greens were in the winter.  Thank goodness you can discuss having excellent firm bermuda greens now instead of trying to put bentgrass in a place it really wasn't intended to be managed.

I use common sense everyday but it's very lacking in this world.  Next time try the hot and sour soup!

Don't make me regret telling you about the trufirm  

[Aaron McMaster]

Lettuce wraps?

When you say you want "firm and slow by today's standards" what do you mean? I'm not sure I've heard anyone else argue for firm and slow before.  I've obviously heard firm and fast, but not firm and slow. What speed would you consider ideal?

I understand what he's talking about and I've played it at Kingsley.  Slow green speeds around 9 but the surfaces are firm.  I didn't like putting on them (mainly because newer bents are harder to get a true roll when they are cut higher) but that's just my two cents and he has his two cents on what he'd like to play everyday.  Everybody has their own preferences. 

[BHoover]

Lettuce wraps?

When you say you want "firm and slow by today's standards" what do you mean? I'm not sure I've heard anyone else argue for firm and slow before.  I've obviously heard firm and fast, but not firm and slow. What speed would you consider ideal?

I understand what he's talking about and I've played it at Kingsley.  Slow green speeds around 9 but the surfaces are firm.  I didn't like putting on them (mainly because newer bents are harder to get a true roll when they are cut higher) but that's just my two cents and he has his two cents on what he'd like to play everyday.  Everybody has their own preferences. 

If, during my visits, the greens at Kingsley were playing at what would be considered firm and slow, then I'm all in favor of "firm and slow" playing conditions. 

[jeffwarne]

Lettuce wraps?

When you say you want "firm and slow by today's standards" what do you mean? I'm not sure I've heard anyone else argue for firm and slow before.  I've obviously heard firm and fast, but not firm and slow. What speed would you consider ideal?

Firm and slow (by modern standards) IS the answer.
and no Brent I'm not talking about slowing down your greens even more.
I'm talking about maintaining greens so they're not on life support, good pin placements can used for variety and interest, and enough grass so chipping is an option from "chipping areas"

[BHoover]

Firm and slow (by modern standards) IS the answer.
and no Brent I'm not talking about slowing down your greens even more.
I'm talking about maintaining greens so they're not on life support, good pins placements can used for variety and interest, and enough grass so chipping is an option from "chipping areas"

I'm not saying that I disagree. Obviously no rational person wants greens on life support. I'm by no means an expert, but I assume that conditions are a function of climate, soil conditions, strain(s) of turfgrass and other factors. But all else being equal, firm and slow conditions (like those at Kingsley) suit me just fine.

By the way, my name is not Brent (is that an inside joke that I'm missing?).

[Terry Poley]

I remember a day early this summer when Aaron's greens were "too hard" according to members, and my greens (2 miles away) were "too Soft" according to members... However the "Tru-Firm" reading was IDENTICAL!     Maybe Aaron is right, you guys just aren't that good

[Brent Hutto]

Brian,

I think that was a sidebar directed at me.

What Jeff is calling "firm and slow" would have been about what I experienced at Delamere Forest and Aberdovey on last month's UK golf vacation. The greens at Harlech were firm and a bit too slow IMO. But the typical presentation I encounter on UK links and heathland course is the same speed to just a touch slower than I'm used to at home but (typically) very firm and on the courses with a (typically) well maintained mixture of grass types they are much more true-rolling than Bermuda grass could ever be.

My vacation experience was an interesting case in point, relative to my own putting. The greens at Harlech were apparently in a period where they weren't being cut quite as often or as low as they might often be. For whatever reason. They were pretty true rolling but definitely a notch slower than I'm used to. For instance, I've never encountered the greens at Royal Cinque Ports to be that slow. I could not make putts to save my life. Either I was dead in the heart and half a foot short or I was getting caught out by a putt having a large break where I read a small one, because my pace was off. By the fourth or fifth round I was finally starting to get the range.

Then I stopped for a round at Aberdovey. It was a day after a big tournament and they were still in tournament "nick". I felt right at home. Similar speed or a touch faster than I normally get at home but no grain, the ball was rolling perfectly, it was just a joy to putt on those greens. Probably made almost as much "total feet of putts" in 18 holes there as I had in five rounds at Harlech (OK, that's an exaggeration myabe).

Anyway, that's what I'll take Jeff's "firm and slow" to mean. Those wonderful greens at Aberdovey were still probably two feet slower on the Stimp than typical high-end private clubs the typical GCA thread discusses in USA. And they are rather flattish (or to put it in a more favorable light, more subtle in their breaks) compared to most of our preferences. But very, very firm. Just short of rock hard, actually. And with that kind of firmness and that kind of trueness an honest 10.something Stimp reading feels great.

[BCrosby]

"Firm and slow (by modern standards) IS the answer.... I'm talking about maintaining greens so they're not on life support, good pin placements can used for variety and interest, and enough grass so chipping is an option from "chipping areas".

What Jeff says.

[Jon Wiggett]

BCowen...so when your greens die  because you, and a handful of "experts" want firm greens, you're okay with that?

Here's what I would do...if you don't like the way your course is maintained, fire your super, or quit your club and find one that sets the course up exactly the way you want.

But until you understand that 1st and foremost the super will do what is right for the grass, and what the members want comes second, you will never be happy.

Craig,

you seem to be the guy who knows something about this so could you answer my earlier question which was 'I cannot understand how a climate that is so hot also leads to soft bent grass greens. Surely if you keep the upper rootzone area soggy you would be exacerbating the problem by over heating the grass and forcing it to remain shallow rooted no?'

Jon

[Bradley Anderson]

Jon Wigget, Your sideways remarks about American greenkeeping practices are irrelevant.

You have no business commenting on what we do here. If I was a greenkeeper in Inverness Scotland the biggest problem I would anticipate having with sprinklers is keeping track of where they are located - the grass would grow over them for lack of use.

[Ben Lovett]

dealing with bentgrass greens in extreme conditions isn't as easy as throwing water at it! Actually this could lead to scalding in temperatures over 40'c. To keep grass alive in these conditions it's important to have a good aerification program all year to promote root growth as during high heat periods you loose roots at an alarming rate! Any type of stress during these periods could lead to plant death thus ruling out many cultural practices to help achieve fast and firm.
I look after bent greens where night temperatures can be over 25'c for three months and regularly reaches 40'c. Fortunately this is our off season and I am under no pressure to achieve fast and firm

[Sean_A]

I think what we all need to remember is that we are talking about ideal green conditions.  Where the separation comes is everybody has a different goal as to speed and firmness. I think it is understood that weather etc doesn't always cooperate.  The crux for me is the goal.  I find it hard to believe that a lot of supers are really trying to achieve as firm as greens as is sensible given the budget, weather and course design.  This necessarily means that the ideal, as I see it anyway, will vary.  Be that as it may, I play a lot of courses which are simply not firm.  I can only put this down to a few things if we understand the limitations of weather and budget...and that is the goal.  At some point, folks will have to realize that not every super, membership or golfer wants softish greens.  While I may be dismayed at greens I think are softer than they oughta be, a lot of people aren't. 

Everybody keeps saying we had a dry summer in England, but my grass has stayed lush all year.  I haven't seen any browned out courses this year and not one I would say was in great nick save for Renaissance Club.  Most were tolerable, if disappointing.  In England, I think I am seeing a build up of thatch causing the problem of softness.  A lot of cubs either don't have the budget to deal with thatch, don't want to deal with thatch or don't want spend the cash and inconvenience to deal with thatch.  It hasn't been very sunny or hot this year...so it seems to me courses should have been wonderful, but no, this is one of the most disappointing years I can think of course conditions.  It was all going well until August...

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Firm and slow (by modern standards) IS the answer.
and no Brent I'm not talking about slowing down your greens even more.
I'm talking about maintaining greens so they're not on life support, good pins placements can used for variety and interest, and enough grass so chipping is an option from "chipping areas"

I'm not saying that I disagree. Obviously no rational person wants greens on life support. I'm by no means an expert, but I assume that conditions are a function of climate, soil conditions, strain(s) of turfgrass and other factors. But all else being equal, firm and slow conditions (like those at Kingsley) suit me just fine.

By the way, my name is not Brent (is that an inside joke that I'm missing?).

Brian,
I was referring to Brent who pretty much nailed it.
Often when I comment on the green's arms race. I get pushback from people who are playing slowish greens already who wouldn't want them slower.(sometimes that's been Brent)
 I'm speaking more to the clubs that are pushing greens to 11,12, 13 and yes even faster with vast expense and very little gain other than being able to tell others how fast their greens are.

[Thomas Dai]

It hasn't been very sunny or hot this year...so it seems to me courses should have been wonderful, but no, this is one of the most disappointing years I can think of course conditions. 
Ciao

I'd go along with this. This summer in the UK wasn't particularly hot and dry nor was it damp-n-cold so I'd have thought courses would have been in top nick but I to have been disappointed. Often greens have been soft or softer than anticipated. Fairways as well. Over-watering must surely be a prime suspect although one other aspect I'd throw into the debate is the use of the greens-iron. I've seen courses with soft feeling and lush looking greens but on enquiring this seemed to be due to keeping the cut high but increasing speed via the greens-iron - ie the green looks lush and feels softish underfoot but still putts quick, if you get my drift.

atb

[Jon Wiggett]

dealing with bentgrass greens in extreme conditions isn't as easy as throwing water at it! Actually this could lead to scalding in temperatures over 40'c. To keep grass alive in these conditions it's important to have a good aerification program all year to promote root growth as during high heat periods you loose roots at an alarming rate! Any type of stress during these periods could lead to plant death thus ruling out many cultural practices to help achieve fast and firm.
I look after bent greens where night temperatures can be over 25'c for three months and regularly reaches 40'c. Fortunately this is our off season and I am under no pressure to achieve fast and firm

Ben,

thanks for the insight about your situation. My experience to maintaining turfgrass in hot climates is limited to fescue maintained in a semi arid climate on a sandy loam through summers where the temps regularly topped 40C. I too realised the dangers of scolding the grass if the turf was watered in the heat of summer so did wonder how the green could be soft but not get stressed by the amount of water close to the surface. My greens were very firm through the main part of the summer. I also spiked the greens to a depth of 30mm on a weekly basis and topdressed every 10 days or so but no verticutting or grooming as I felt this would stress the grass to much.

I appreciate this is bent been talked about (I assume Agrostis palustris) which I do not know well so was wondering why the green would be so soft if it were not due to over watering and if due to excess water why the scolding that must occur is not seen as a problem.

Bradley,

There was certainly no intended sideways swipe at US greenkeeping practices. As I was at pains to point out when I originally asked the question it is an area in which I have very little knowledge and I am genuinely interested as to why it was so but just from an academical point of view.

I was surprised by the tone of your response as I thought that sort of narrow minded bigotry was a thing of the past in greenkeeping. Sadly in your case obviously not

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Jon

How many tonnes of dressing do you aim to put down every year?

Do you think we do enough in this country, generally speaking?

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I was putting down a dusting through the main summer at intervals dependent on the mount of growth. Spring and autumn were slightly heavier but still not much. I am not sure how many tonnes it would have been as it was stuff we had on site and I had a about 20'000m2 of it with the possibility of digging out a bit more if needed which I doubt would ever be the case. Some greens got a bit more, some less.

As for if we do enough in the UK that's a tough one to answer as every where is so individual with even individual greens on the same course capable of having different maintenance programs. However I would suspect on average we do not top dress enough due to budget and play pressures. I prefer to spike and topdress often and avoid hollowtining if at all possible but know there are many other correct ways to go about it.

It is always interesting to learn new ideas and techniques especially if you can implement them in some way yourself. That is why responses such as Bradley's are so disappointing.

Jon

 

[Jeff Bergeron]

Aaron,I am OK in the short game area but I hate mushy greens.Tell you what,to prove I am not a pansie, I challenge you to a 9 ball chip off,we each put up $100,000 winner take all. You pick the place but remember I can't chip on soft greens. Let me know .

I'll take Turf aka Aaron

[mike_beene]

Sounds like he is a better chipper than me. Are you funding him?Where are you guys?

[Tom Kelly]

Everybody keeps saying we had a dry summer in England, but my grass has stayed lush all year.  I haven't seen any browned out courses this year and not one I would say was in great nick save for Renaissance Club.  Most were tolerable, if disappointing.  In England, I think I am seeing a build up of thatch causing the problem of softness.  A lot of cubs either don't have the budget to deal with thatch, don't want to deal with thatch or don't want spend the cash and inconvenience to deal with thatch.  It hasn't been very sunny or hot this year...so it seems to me courses should have been wonderful, but no, this is one of the most disappointing years I can think of course conditions.  It was all going well until August...

Ciao

Have last years rain and the wet winter been a factor in the conditions we have seen this summer?

[Sean_A]

Everybody keeps saying we had a dry summer in England, but my grass has stayed lush all year.  I haven't seen any browned out courses this year and not one I would say was in great nick save for Renaissance Club.  Most were tolerable, if disappointing.  In England, I think I am seeing a build up of thatch causing the problem of softness.  A lot of cubs either don't have the budget to deal with thatch, don't want to deal with thatch or don't want spend the cash and inconvenience to deal with thatch.  It hasn't been very sunny or hot this year...so it seems to me courses should have been wonderful, but no, this is one of the most disappointing years I can think of course conditions.  It was all going well until August...

Ciao

Have last years rain and the wet winter been a factor in the conditions we have seen this summer?

Tom

It could well be the case that two bad winters in a row are taking their toll.  I know one or two courses I saw in Wales this spring were definitely still suffering from winter rain...Tenby was a mess.  What have courses been like your way? 

Ciao

[Tom Kelly]

Everybody keeps saying we had a dry summer in England, but my grass has stayed lush all year.  I haven't seen any browned out courses this year and not one I would say was in great nick save for Renaissance Club.  Most were tolerable, if disappointing.  In England, I think I am seeing a build up of thatch causing the problem of softness.  A lot of cubs either don't have the budget to deal with thatch, don't want to deal with thatch or don't want spend the cash and inconvenience to deal with thatch.  It hasn't been very sunny or hot this year...so it seems to me courses should have been wonderful, but no, this is one of the most disappointing years I can think of course conditions.  It was all going well until August...

Ciao

Have last years rain and the wet winter been a factor in the conditions we have seen this summer?

Tom

It could well be the case that two bad winters in a row are taking their toll.  I know one or two courses I saw in Wales this spring were definitely still suffering from winter rain...Tenby was a mess.  What have courses been like your way? 

Ciao

Everywhere I went was pretty sodden in the spring so can't imagine it was the greatest way to start the season. Unfortunately I haven't been out and about much this summer so can't make too much of a comment but generally by the end of summer/early autumn the courses I saw were starting to look pretty good and firm. Liphook has played pretty well all year other than a short time after the August greens work when according to the head greenkeeper "the most aggressive coring and thatch removal programme that they have probably ever had." was carried out! They are still abit soft from a combination of recovering from the works and the stormy weather we have been having when I've been there recently but the rest of the course is playing nicely.

[BCowan]

I remember a day early this summer when Aaron's greens were "too hard" according to members, and my greens (2 miles away) were "too Soft" according to members... However the "Tru-Firm" reading was IDENTICAL!     Maybe Aaron is right, you guys just aren't that good

Terry, this is the best post on this thread.  I think we need more case studies and to measure more courses in the area.  Any member complaining of too firm of greens needs to be thrown out.  JMO.  Also how close in time did you measure the greens?  Both in the same hour?  The point of having a greens firmness race competition, is it would encourage members who aren't into Golf Arch to possibly opening their mind to common sense green speeds and firmer greens.  Tree removal could be a byproduct of it too.  Through competition you possibly could get the uniformed to go along with the program.