Is "Old Macdonald" not exhibit "A" for

[Patrick_Mucci]

Terry,

I'd agree.

While some of the greatest architects or our time were employed, it took a man with incredible vision to conceive of Bandon.
And, it took a man with conviction willing to bankroll a speculative venture.

Old Macdonald is Exhibit A for the enduring genius of old school architecture and how one man had the vision and nerve to think it marketable. Played from the proper tees, it is also wacky good fun in a golfing meadow by the seashore.

Everyone in our group loved the golf course.
All vowed that it would be first on their list upon return.

It was challenging, but, it was fun.

Winged Foot West is challenging, but, I wouldn't want to play it day in and day out.

I would want to play Old Macdonald day in and day out.

As for the championship nature of one course versus another, it's almost immaterial, because any of the four can bust your balls or give you a kiss on the cheek, depending on the weather. It's clearly the best pure golf resort in America.

I can't think of another that compares to it.
If only it was an hour from my home 

[Ronald Montesano]

How many times have you played it from the back tees ?[/color]

Every time.

And how many times is that ?

And, what was your score ?

In other news, a dead horse was beaten today. Film at eleven.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many times have you played it from the back tees ?[/color]

Every time.

And how many times is that ?

And, what was your score ?

In other news, a dead horse was beaten today. Film at eleven.

Ron,

It's a relevant question, but, I'm not surprised that it's significance escapes you.

[Will Lozier]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

I've never thought of Pac Dunes as a "championship" golf course.

How many times have you played it from the back tees ?

Every time.

And how many times is that ?

And, what was your score ?

Probably 8-10 times.  Anywhere from 78 to 89, usually with lots of birdies and one or two big blowups and I don't think I ever saw it on a calm day.  I don't think of a course that offers of up lots of birdies while kicking your ass on one or two holes a round as a "championship" course by conventional standards.  I actually think PD is the sportier of the two.

[Tom_Doak]

Probably 8-10 times.  Anywhere from 78 to 89, usually with lots of birdies and one or two big blowups and I don't think I ever saw it on a calm day.  I don't think of a course that offers of up lots of birdies with the while kicking your ass on one or two holes a round as a "championship" course by conventional standards.  I actually think PD is the sportier of the two.

Well, neither of the two courses was meant for "championships" as Bandon is highly unlikely to host many of those.  But if you play the back tees all the time and have never broken 78, you can't really say the course is a pushover, either.    I agree with the sentiment that Pacific Dunes is more likely to yield more birdies but also cause a couple of "others" each round.  Old Macdonald is longer but more open, so there are fewer birdies and fewer triples, but in the end I don't think one is much harder or easier than the other; they're just different.

[William_G]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

I've never thought of Pac Dunes as a "championship" golf course.

+1, it really isn't, but the ladies loved it at the Curtis Cup in 06

[William_G]

regarding back tees

the real back tees at Bandon Dunes, are so far back, that they are no longer on the scorecard due to a desire by some to play those tees whether they should or not... (which I think is a good idea overall for the game of golf)

the back tees are still on the card for all the other courses

also I think the Old Mac has exceeded everyone's expectations of the land that was given for the course, as it looked pretty ho hum prior to a course being there, the whole team did a great job putting it together!

[Chris DeToro]

I think everyone in my group loved Old Mac during my trip out there and we ended up playing every repeat round we could fit in on Old Mac.  Because of the width, it can be easily enjoyed by everyone and you're not out of a hole even if you're a little off that day.  One of my favorite spots is the snack shack between 7 and 8--such a great view of the courses, the ocean, the cliffs...

[Ryan Coles]

Tom Doak's 4th best course by an ocean.... And I suspect there is no 5th?

Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

How do you know that they didn't ?

I don't - hence the question.

[Ryan Coles]

...
Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

Given that Pacific Dunes is oft considered Tom's best. And, given that many considered Old MacDonald better than Pacific Dunes.
It is hard for me to imagine there could be a better course on the site. I know for sure that you couldn't have conceived a better course for the sight. In other words, you are no Tom Doak.

Indeed not. How very perceptive of you, particularly as you'd clearly been drinking on an empty head.

The question I was pondering is could Tom Doak have conceived a better course? he has intimated that quite possibly he could've, which, for how highly acclaimed the course is, is interesting.

[JC Urbina]

William G,

I have to agree and disagree on some of your points.

I agree on the Curtis Cup.  Pac Dunes proved a worthy venue for the right " Championship" The Bandon Dunes resort was a wonderful host for this type of event, I was there during the competition, the weather was calm and the scores proved the set up to be just right.  A little breeze and it could have turned the tide for either side.

The Pub Links Championship was another championship test for some of the youngest and most powerful games on the planet.  Old Mac did not disappoint, I walked around with the USGA set up staff and discussed with them the days pin locations.  I thought the people in charge for set up had just the right amount of Fun factor mixed in.  For the record both courses were not set up from all the way back, both course stood up to the best players in each respective championship.


I disagree with the land used for Old Macdonald,  You mentioned that the land was not as good.  I thought the topography on holes 9- !6 was as good as any land out there and the 13th hole had many small Mini contours that helped shape some of the best links land golf you could want.  Once I convinced the group to move the original routing north of hole # 13 the land got even stronger in my opinion.

We did Sand Cap some of the holes namely # 1-6 and 18.  But the work performed by the finish crew more then made up  for the lack of "Good Land"


Bill,

The Bahto family gave me a picture of George cruising the Old Mac landscape in a golf cart, it is a photo I will cherish forever.  George was an inspiration for me and the rest of the construction crew who got to meet him.  It was George's idea to do the Punchbowl on the 18th hole, the crew set out create that land form you see.


A lot of people had a hand in the creation of Old Macdonald, George being one of them.  A lot of people don't know this but Mike Keiser insisted that George be on hand for the Macdconald Cup and the grand opening of Old Macdonald, he spent considerable time out there as a guest of Mike Keiser, a fitting thank you to wonderful person in George Bahto!

[Will Lozier]

Probably 8-10 times.  Anywhere from 78 to 89, usually with lots of birdies and one or two big blowups and I don't think I ever saw it on a calm day.  I don't think of a course that offers of up lots of birdies with the while kicking your ass on one or two holes a round as a "championship" course by conventional standards.  I actually think PD is the sportier of the two.

Well, neither of the two courses was meant for "championships" as Bandon is highly unlikely to host many of those.  But if you play the back tees all the time and have never broken 78, you can't really say the course is a pushover, either.    I agree with the sentiment that Pacific Dunes is more likely to yield more birdies but also cause a couple of "others" each round.  Old Macdonald is longer but more open, so there are fewer birdies and fewer triples, but in the end I don't think one is much harder or easier than the other; they're just different.

Tom,

I would wholeheartedly agree.  In fact, between BD, PD & BT, I always scored worst at PD.  Part of that had to do with that fact that it was a little tougher to get out there as a caddie, thus the most accessible days were usually the worst weather days - higher scores.  Also, like I said, I've had rounds at PD where I blew up on a hole or two and shot 82 - I think had a 10 on 15 one day.  Never struggled all the way around but usually got beat up somewhere along the way. 

PD is not at all a pushover...nor a "championship" course.  Rather, like I said, it feels like the sportiest of the all Bandon tracks. 

Patrick, why did you call it a "championship" course?  How many rounds did you log and what did you you shoot?

[Garland Bayley]

...
Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

Given that Pacific Dunes is oft considered Tom's best. And, given that many considered Old MacDonald better than Pacific Dunes.
It is hard for me to imagine there could be a better course on the site. I know for sure that you couldn't have conceived a better course for the sight. In other words, you are no Tom Doak.

Indeed not. How very perceptive of you, particularly as you'd clearly been drinking on an empty head.

The question I was pondering is could Tom Doak have conceived a better course? he has intimated that quite possibly he could've, which, for how highly acclaimed the course is, is interesting.

OK, we'll put you down as someone that can't take a joke even in the presence of smileys.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

"Patrick, why did you call it a "championship" course? 

At close to 6,700 yards, in cool weather, with plenty of wind I found some of the fairways to play fairly narrow.

I also watched eight ( different golfers struggle with the course and come nowhere near their handicaps.

How many rounds did you log and what did you you shoot?

I've played Pac Dunes about 6-8 times.
My last round I was 6 over from the Green tees.

By the way, what's your handicap ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

P.S.

I predict a USGA Championship for Old Macdonald within the next ten (10) years.

[William_G]

William G,

I have to agree and disagree on some of your points.

I agree on the Curtis Cup.  Pac Dunes proved a worthy venue for the right " Championship" The Bandon Dunes resort was a wonderful host for this type of event, I was there during the competition, the weather was calm and the scores proved the set up to be just right.  A little breeze and it could have turned the tide for either side.

The Pub Links Championship was another championship test for some of the youngest and most powerful games on the planet.  Old Mac did not disappoint, I walked around with the USGA set up staff and discussed with them the days pin locations.  I thought the people in charge for set up had just the right amount of Fun factor mixed in.  For the record both courses were not set up from all the way back, both course stood up to the best players in each respective championship.


I disagree with the land used for Old Macdonald,  You mentioned that the land was not as good.  I thought the topography on holes 9- !6 was as good as any land out there and the 13th hole had many small Mini contours that helped shape some of the best links land golf you could want.  Once I convinced the group to move the original routing north of hole # 13 the land got even stronger in my opinion.

We did Sand Cap some of the holes namely # 1-6 and 18.  But the work performed by the finish crew more then made up  for the lack of "Good Land"


Bill,

The Bahto family gave me a picture of George cruising the Old Mac landscape in a golf cart, it is a photo I will cherish forever.  George was an inspiration for me and the rest of the construction crew who got to meet him.  It was George's idea to do the Punchbowl on the 18th hole, the crew set out create that land form you see.


A lot of people had a hand in the creation of Old Macdonald, George being one of them.  A lot of people don't know this but Mike Keiser insisted that George be on hand for the Macdconald Cup and the grand opening of Old Macdonald, he spent considerable time out there as a guest of Mike Keiser, a fitting thank you to wonderful person in George Bahto!

Jim,

Loved the Pub Links at Old Mac, awesome!

What I meant by the land looking ho-hum, is that as we all played Pacific from the 14th tee we look over and all wonder how they can take that land and create something equitable with where we were playing at the time.

great job!

[William_G]

P.S.

I predict a USGA Championship for Old Macdonald within the next ten (10) years.

a championship course at under 7000 yards

[Will Lozier]

Will,

"Patrick, why did you call it a "championship" course? 

At close to 6,700 yards, in cool weather, with plenty of wind I found some of the fairways to play fairly narrow.

I also watched eight ( different golfers struggle with the course and come nowhere near their handicaps.

How many rounds did you log and what did you you shoot?

I've played Pac Dunes about 6-8 times.
My last round I was 6 over from the Green tees.

By the way, what's your handicap ?

I love that you LOVE to ask this question!  You seem to ask it every time we engage in a discussion...never fails.  Do some research.

[William_G]

Terry,

I'd agree.

While some of the greatest architects or our time were employed, it took a man with incredible vision to conceive of Bandon.
And, it took a man with conviction willing to bankroll a speculative venture.

Old Macdonald is Exhibit A for the enduring genius of old school architecture and how one man had the vision and nerve to think it marketable. Played from the proper tees, it is also wacky good fun in a golfing meadow by the seashore.

Everyone in our group loved the golf course.
All vowed that it would be first on their list upon return.

It was challenging, but, it was fun.

Winged Foot West is challenging, but, I wouldn't want to play it day in and day out.

I would want to play Old Macdonald day in and day out.

As for the championship nature of one course versus another, it's almost immaterial, because any of the four can bust your balls or give you a kiss on the cheek, depending on the weather. It's clearly the best pure golf resort in America WORLD.

I can't think of another that compares to it.
If only it was an hour from my home  or 2 hours

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

"Patrick, why did you call it a "championship" course? 

At close to 6,700 yards, in cool weather, with plenty of wind I found some of the fairways to play fairly narrow.

I also watched eight ( different golfers struggle with the course and come nowhere near their handicaps.

How many rounds did you log and what did you you shoot?

I've played Pac Dunes about 6-8 times.
My last round I was 6 over from the Green tees.

By the way, what's your handicap ?

I love that you LOVE to ask this question!  You seem to ask it every time we engage in a discussion...never fails.  Do some research.

Will,

There's a reason I ask that question.

The answer provides context.

Why are you reluctant to provide your handicap ?

[Will Lozier]

Will,

"Patrick, why did you call it a "championship" course? 

At close to 6,700 yards, in cool weather, with plenty of wind I found some of the fairways to play fairly narrow.

I also watched eight ( different golfers struggle with the course and come nowhere near their handicaps.

How many rounds did you log and what did you you shoot?

I've played Pac Dunes about 6-8 times.
My last round I was 6 over from the Green tees.

By the way, what's your handicap ?

I love that you LOVE to ask this question!  You seem to ask it every time we engage in a discussion...never fails.  Do some research.

Will,

There's a reason I ask that question.

The answer provides context.

Why are you reluctant to provide your handicap ?

I am not reluctant at all...I've just told you so many times, it gets really old.  Like I said, don't be lazy and look into it.  You should be able to find it in just about every thread we've ever engaged on. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

Dozens, if not hundreds of guys tell me what their handicap is.

While I store a considerable amount of data in my memory banks, your handicap is only of select and limited interest, hence it's been dispatched to the trash bin.

So, spare us the drama and tell us your handicap.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

Dozens, if not hundreds of guys tell me what their handicap is.

While I store a considerable amount of data in my memory banks, your handicap is only of select and limited interest, hence it's been dispatched to the trash bin.

So, spare us the drama and tell us your handicap.

Drama?  

I am a former PGA member...take a guess if your memory is so shite.

[Ryan Kelly]

Pat, I felt compelled to reply even though I don't post much.  I just wanted to share a quick story regarding your original post and specifically the last couple of sentences.  I made my 3rd trip out to Bandon just this past August with my Dad and my 2 teenage sons.  The trip was a gift from my Dad and I for my oldest son who graduated high school in June.  The deal my parents have made with their grandkids is that when they graduate high school, they get to pick a "trip."  Both my older sons play competitive golf with my oldest now playing in College.  Anyway, both the boys have heard me talk about my 2 other trips to Bandon with the guys and they were dying to go.  The bottom line as you can imagine, it was an awesome trip that brings joy every time I talk or write about it.  My Dad is not that old (65 going on 66) but 36 a day of walking was not his cup of tea, although he walks regularly with a caddy at our home club.  The boys and I were scheduled to play 36, 36, 31.  I had scheduled a massage for my Dad after the first round and he was going to figure out something to do in the afternoon on the second day.  The last day were going to play PD and then the Preserve, which I had not played yet.  One of the best highlights was after the first 9 holes of the trip on PD, my Dad turns to me and says, "cancel that massage - I'm having too much fun.  I'm going to play all the rounds."  He did and we had an unbelievable trip.  Special moments highlighted by my 16 year holing out for a 2 at 16 in the first round at PD to close out our opponents - his older brother and my Dad and then my Dad knocking it off the flag stick on #4 on the preserve for the "almost" ace during our last round.  Now, finally back to your original post about introducing your son to OM and Bandon in general.  It is obviously a very special place for so many reasons, but what I found so interesting was that my oldest (18 yrs. old) came away saying that OM was his favorite course at the resort.  I am definitely a newbie and have enjoyed being part of this site and ready as many books as possible, but there is so much to "get" at OM and I don't know if he fully understood all the architecture and the merits of it, but he loved it.  I know I don't need to tell you this, but you are correct in your anticipation of introducing your son to not only OM but the entire resort.

P.S. I know Sven.  I can tell you that he added to not only the explanation of the architecture but to each and every round.  Thanks again to you, and your partners.

[William_G]

great post Ryan

Bandon is special 

glad you hooked up with Sven