Is "Old Macdonald" not exhibit "A" for

[Patrick_Mucci]

the idea of concept holes ?

Holes that reflect some of the principles inherent in the template holes ?

Holes, to coin a phrase from Euclidian Geometry, that are similar, but, not congruent to the template holes.

Not long ago I played Old Macdonald with some friends, and everyone walked away incredibly high on the golf course.
Some stated that if they returned to Bandon, they'd play Old Macdonald to the exclusion of the others.

The idea of marrying the template concepts with the unique terrain seemed to produce an incredibly enjoyable, fun, yet challenging golf course.  One that could be enjoyed by every level of golfer.

Some of the fellows I played with, had no understanding of the templates or concept holes, yet, they thoroughly enjoyed their golfing experience at Old Macdonald.

Old Macdonald passed my critical test.
Did I want to go straight from the 18th green to the 1st tee.
I did, and so did the fellows in my group, but, we had a plane to catch and the tee sheet was full.

The day was ideal, sunny and warm, with a nice breeze.

I'm now looking forward to the day when I introduce my son to Old Macdonald.

I loved everything about it.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, I'd be real interested to see your top 25 courses list.  Have you ever posted it?  Will you? 

[Jon Cavalier]

That's well said, Pat. And as a lover of all things template, I of course agree.

I had the exact same experience when I took a buddy of mine to a few Macdonald/Raynor courses here on the east coast. He had no idea that we were playing Macdonald templates, but he loved the golf courses and had a blast.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I'm glad you really liked Old Macdonald.  But,

Are not the other three courses at Bandon exhibits A, B, and C for NOT just sticking to concept holes?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

Glad you "got" it. Not everyone does.  Personally, I was blown away by Old Mac.  It's currently my favorite at the resort and favorite Doak.  I get the feeling that since it was essentially a tribute course and not purely a solo effort Tom may be a bit reluctant to admit publicly just how good it is lest it take a bit of luster away from his other work in the public's eye.  But it is that good IMO.  Given 10 rounds on property I'd go 4 OM, 3 PD, 2 BT, 1 BD.  It's really an updating and reinterpreting of the templates with today's aesthetic of tie-ins and no hard edges with what would appear a somewhat difficult routing.  Getting back to the ocean at 7 forced some severe ground into play, but it worked out brilliantly.  Really a high point for Tom and Jim IMO.  If anything it's underrated given the stiff local competition.

[Jim Nugent]

Are not the other three courses at Bandon exhibits A, B, and C for NOT just sticking to concept holes?

Tom, if you had not gotten the mandate to build concept holes, I wonder what kind of course you might have designed on that exact site.  Old Mac turned out so well -- is so highly acclaimed -- could you have built something even more interesting? 

[Tom_Doak]

Are not the other three courses at Bandon exhibits A, B, and C for NOT just sticking to concept holes?

Tom, if you had not gotten the mandate to build concept holes, I wonder what kind of course you might have designed on that exact site.  Old Mac turned out so well -- is so highly acclaimed -- could you have built something even more interesting? 

We would never know the answer to that, because Mr. Keiser probably would have hired a different architect instead.  The only reason he was comfortable coming back to have us do a second course at the resort, is because it wouldn't be marketed with my name.

[Peter Pallotta]

While Ballyneal is still #1 on my courses to play list, from all I've read OM has firmly taken over 2nd place. It seems like a rare and genuine treat to play. But also, as an example of an architect's work -- I haven't ever thought of OM as a replica course or as using templates or even as a collection of concept holes. To me it has always seemed more akin to an accomplished water-colourist famed for painting fields of flowers (Ballyneal) being asked to instead paint the Himalayas or Mt Everest (Old Macdonald), i.e. the 'forms' he is now capturing are bigger and bolder and more familiar to us than what he's done before, but the approach and philosophy and ethos and aesthetic of the artist-craftsman remain the same. Thus the water-colourist is both squarely within his comfort zone/area of expertise and at the same time totally outside of it -- and that I think makes for very interesting work.  

Peter

(PS - the famed water-colourist, however, doesn't talk much about Mt. Everest, because he's never liked being told what to do/paint! )

[Andy Troeger]

Not long ago I played Old Macdonald with some friends, and everyone walked away incredibly high on the golf course.
Some stated that if they returned to Bandon, they'd play Old Macdonald to the exclusion of the others.

Remind me not to ask those friends for advice on where to play. Old Mac is a fine golf course, but traveling all the way to Bandon and skipping out on the other courses is crazy talk as far as I'm concerned. All three of the other courses belong in the top 50 in the US (easily), with BT and PD in my top ten. I'd like to play Old Mac with a summer wind because I think it was conceived to play that way, especially now that I've played NGLA, Fishers, and some of the "originals," but I'll differ from Jud in that I think OM is clearly my 4th at the resort and also 4th of the Doak designs I have played. 

[Tom_Doak]

(PS - the famed water-colourist, however, doesn't talk much about Mt. Everest, because he's never liked being told what to do/paint! )

  Peter:

I did enjoy the design exercise of Old Macdonald, trying to marry the famous old holes I know so well with a real links site and state-of-the-art construction ideas, and I think the result was outstanding.  I fully expected that the people who love the templates would think it was some of our best work; I just don't like it when they try to use the project as the vindication of the templates as a superior art form.  If the public at large really thought it was my BEST work, I would be disappointed at that ... but it is ranked as my fourth best course next to an ocean, not my best.  

I do have a mountain course of my own, which Ran just profiled here.  It does not have the ocean view to attract the same panelist attention. but I am quite partial to it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I'm glad you really liked Old Macdonald.  But,

Are not the other three courses at Bandon exhibits A, B, and C for NOT just sticking to concept holes?

Tom,

Certainly, but, I found the other courses more challenging for the average to high handicap golfer.

I think part of the increased to intense challenge is the proximity to the ocean and the winds derived from that proximity.

I believe that the "templates" and/or "concept" holes tend to have a user friendly quality blended or woven into the inherent challenge presented by those holes.

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.

[DMoriarty]

Are not the other three courses at Bandon exhibits A, B, and C for NOT just sticking to concept holes?

But aren't most or all of the underlying "concepts" present at these three other courses? 

If anything, I'd say these other courses are exhibits A, B, and C for applying fundamental concepts of sound strategic design implicitly, rather than explicitly.  It reminds me of the quote by British golf writer Henry Leach from 1920:

The sum total of the charms and virtues of a golfing hole in its own natural surroundings depends on many things, some of them quite indefinable, which no art can transplant nor imitate. I believe that a wise architect, however closely, in fact, he may try to model one of his creations upon some famous hole elsewhere, will hold his peace about it. If he confesses, those who do not know the famous original will call him sycophantic, those who do know it will deem him profane. If he keep silence, his plagiarism will most likely never be guessed at, and his brilliant and novel design will be warmly commended on all hands.

At Old Macdonald, the adherence to the fundamental concepts is readily acknowledged.  At the other three, the architects kept their silence.

[Steve Lang]

  Would have to say my favorite memories from OM are 1) talking about the routing and topo with Jim Urbina, 2) talking with George Bahto and almost missing my tee time.. and then 3) the Redan, Roadhole, Sahara, Biarritz, the Ocean, the Alps, WestwardHo.. pretty much everything but walking off the 18th and not being able to replay.

p.s. As much as i loved the Bandon Courses, and enjoyed the amenities, I didn't like the wamm bamm CASH COW RETAIL GOLFER, next please feel there. 

[Bill Brightly]

Would have to say my favorite memories from OM are 1) talking about the routing and topo with Jim Urbina, 2) talking with George Bahto and almost missing my tee time.. and then 3) the Redan, Roadhole, Sahara, Biarritz, the Ocean, the Alps, WestwardHo.. pretty much everything but walking off the 18th and not being able to replay.

Steve, one of my favorite memories is playing OM with the gca guys prior to its official opening. I played with Gib, who had a role in pitching the idea to Mike Keiser. He was walking on air. George Bahto road around in a cart that day, and he reminded me of a proud fist time father! Without debating design credit, I swear George probably felt like handing out cigars! He was SOOOO proud of what was built on the ground.

[Bill Brightly]

Are not the other three courses at Bandon exhibits A, B, and C for NOT just sticking to concept holes?

Tom, if you had not gotten the mandate to build concept holes, I wonder what kind of course you might have designed on that exact site.  Old Mac turned out so well -- is so highly acclaimed -- could you have built something even more interesting? 

We would never know the answer to that, because Mr. Keiser probably would have hired a different architect instead.  The only reason he was comfortable coming back to have us do a second course at the resort, is because it wouldn't be marketed with my name.

For those of us who like the history of golf course architecture, the building of OM should be fascinating.

I absolutely LOVE the irony of Tom Doak being asked to be the lead architect on this project. First of all, Mike Keiser was going to build a CBM tribute course. So while Tom may have seen a hundred great holes on the site and preferred to route the course in his normal way, that was not an option. If he was going to work on this great piece of land, he was going to have to follow CBM's ideal golf hole formula. You gotta love that!

It is not that Tom did not know all the template holes quite well; he probably had seen all of the originals except the Biarritz. But being restricted to only using templates had to drive him crazy. I know he slipped in a non-tempate with Ocean, which is very cool. So if routing a great course on a great piece of land is a puzzle, the OM solution was resticted to a CB Macdonald solution.

I wonder if history will recognize that the building of Old Macdonald was Tom Doak's one and (probably) only time he was forced to become Seth Raynor?

[Ryan Coles]

Tom Doak's 4th best course by an ocean.... And I suspect there is no 5th?

Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

[Ronald Montesano]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

Until Old Mac came along, Trails was considered a championship course and Pacific was a sporty course. Perspective changes with time and neighbors.

[Jud_T]

Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

Yes- in other news, Cindy Crawford has a mole...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak's 4th best course by an ocean.... And I suspect there is no 5th?

Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

How do you know that they didn't ?

[Will Lozier]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

I've never thought of Pac Dunes as a "championship" golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

I've never thought of Pac Dunes as a "championship" golf course.

How many times have you played it from the back tees ?

[Will Lozier]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

I've never thought of Pac Dunes as a "championship" golf course.

How many times have you played it from the back tees ?

Every time.

[Terry Lavin]

Old Macdonald is Exhibit A for the enduring genius of old school architecture and how one man had the vision and nerve to think it marketable. Played from the proper tees, it is also wacky good fun in a golfing meadow by the seashore.

As for the championship nature of one course versus another, it's almost immaterial, because any of the four can bust your balls or give you a kiss on the cheek, depending on the weather. It's clearly the best pure golf resort in America.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Great as it is - was it not a missed opportunity in that the team didn't 'create the best possible course'?

Given that Pacific Dunes is oft considered Tom's best. And, given that many considered Old MacDonald better than Pacific Dunes.
It is hard for me to imagine there could be a better course on the site. I know for sure that you couldn't have conceived a better course for the sight. In other words, you are no Tom Doak.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pacific Dunes seems more like a "championship" course, whereas Old Macdonald seems more like a "sporty" course.[/color]

I've never thought of Pac Dunes as a "championship" golf course.

How many times have you played it from the back tees ?

Every time.

And how many times is that ?

And, what was your score ?