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Bill Seitz

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2014, 12:42:59 AM »
If you are sort of anal about your custom irons should you leave them at home? I have never understood why the rocks in the rough get a pass.

You have three options:

1) Improve your lie;
2) Suck it up;
3) Do what I was advised to do when I went up to Greywalls.  Bring a designated rock iron.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 09:28:18 AM »
Yes great write up Ran! The course looks fantastic.

One small complaint. Can't we agree to build all new great courses in one area making it easier to visit them  ;D

All this chasing around the world to see the next great finished product could just be simplified and I for one promise to have the exact same gratitude and not take them for granted...

At least I have friends in Montana although I've yet to check how far I'll have to drive for this one....probably a 10 hour min flight with a transfer in Denver I guess.   ::)
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

George Freeman

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Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 09:48:00 AM »
If you are sort of anal about your custom irons should you leave them at home? I have never understood why the rocks in the rough get a pass.

You have three options:

1) Improve your lie;
2) Suck it up;
3) Do what I was advised to do when I went up to Greywalls.  Bring a designated rock iron.

Exactly.  I took an old 7 iron with me, but I believe I only used it once in three rounds.  And I definitely missed a few fairways out there, even though they are massive.

Discounting Rock Creek due to the rocks outside the designated lines of play is a stretch.  To Tom's point, no one would be crying foul if there was OB or a lateral hazard running down the length of the holes...
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 10:14:43 AM »
During a time where we can't even explain why Cypress Point is epic we see no bearing on bringing a designated rock iron to the course because, hell, it beats OB.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 11:07:41 AM »
A fantastic tour. And one which, to me at least, acts as a perfect example of how strategy, width and angles are, in practice, one in the same thing. Or, to put it another way, how the three are so interdependent as to effectively be interchangeable. And yet, contrary to what the average golfer would assume, I'll guess that when firm and fast enough scores wouldn't be special.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 12:01:13 PM »
...we see no bearing on bringing a designated rock iron to the course because, hell, it beats OB.

It absolutely, unequivocally beats OB. 
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mike Viscusi

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 01:05:46 PM »
Are there any plans for additional golf at Rock Creek?

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 02:12:12 PM »
I played RC with some high handicaps who were having a tough day.  Me too, only a modestly better player.  We must have sprayed some shots, although I don’t recall any issues with rocks in the native.  As we play a lot in a rocky canyon, the rock iron is fairly common.  It was interesting to see how playable the course is for this lot.  We all were disappointed that we didn’t play our best on such a beautiful course.  I had to talk up the course a bit to get them interested in playing it.  However, once booked, I tried to tone down my own remarks and expectations just to see how such “ordinary” golfers would experience such an extraordinary golf course.  They had no problem realizing that this was probably the best golf course they have ever seen.
 
We were back in the same area this summer with more or less the same group of golfers.  They all wanted another crack at it.  Unfortunately, that couldn’t be arranged.

I have no information about plans for more golf.  When we were there on a perfect summer day, we were told that they were having the club championship in a few days.  The clubhouse was fully staffed with friendly folks.  Yet, we were the only group on the course.  It would seem they have room to grow before they need more golf.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2014, 08:12:33 PM »
Are there any plans for additional golf at Rock Creek?

I can't imagine they would need another course.

Really, there was just a small window of time [about five years] where anyone would have considered building a high-end course in Montana.  The market doesn't support it, but there are enough wealthy people involved to make it work.  I was lucky enough to be there in the right window.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 07:46:09 AM »
Thomas,

I walked every time but in one of the all-time great lines, my playing partner noted, ' The air here is thin and you're not.'

 :-[

 ;D

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2014, 11:23:46 AM »
Are there any plans for additional golf at Rock Creek?

I can't imagine they would need another course.


When I made my brief visit, my caddie made it clear that golf was not the clear #1 choice among members and guests. And who could blame them with all the fly fishing, hunting, ATV-ing, etc. opportunities on site.
H.P.S.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2014, 11:46:05 AM »
Are there any plans for additional golf at Rock Creek?

I can't imagine they would need another course.

Really, there was just a small window of time [about five years] where anyone would have considered building a high-end course in Montana.  The market doesn't support it, but there are enough wealthy people involved to make it work.  I was lucky enough to be there in the right window.

And we are all lucky that such a fine course shows some people here that golf is worthy of being played at places where they choose to live or spend their vacations, even if it is not on links land.

Andrew Cunningham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2014, 10:31:10 AM »
I was surprised how reasonable a membership at RCCC actually is.  I mean if you factor in all the available activities and amenities - some at an additional expense - that value proposition is off the charts good.  If I lived within 10 hours I would join.  Loved the place!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2014, 12:13:36 PM »
I was surprised how reasonable a membership at RCCC actually is.  I mean if you factor in all the available activities and amenities - some at an additional expense - that value proposition is off the charts good.  If I lived within 10 hours I would join.  Loved the place!

I've never heard of the 10 hour rule. 10 hrs driving, total travel time or what?

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2014, 04:23:12 PM »
I'm starting to like the 10 hour rule, though that's still a considerable hike for me.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2014, 06:02:20 PM »
Then move to Nashville. I can leave at 7am and be at any course in the country by 5pm.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2014, 03:39:41 PM »
Then move to Nashville. I can leave at 7am and be at any course in the country by 5pm.

Good point, efficient proximity to the majority of the country is why Fed Ex and UPS have there central transport hubs in Memphis and Louisville respectively. 

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2014, 08:22:52 PM »
Well, thus far this thread is missing a contrarian view. So, I'll provide it: Rock Creek is my least favorite course Tom has done and by quite a margin. But, it isn't because of any design flaws. Nor do I have a problem with any specific holes, greens, bunkers, etc.

My problem is that while I played the course a few times, I couldn't actually see the course. That's right, I couldn't "see" the course.

Why? Because overall I found the place so overwhelmingly stimulating visually that the golf course itself just couldn't grab my attention. Sounds crazy, I know. But, courses like Cypress Point or Cape Kidnappers - very dramatic locations, to be sure - never did to me what the setting at Rock Creek did. My mind just went elsewhere. I remember the place but not the golf course. Not at all.

What kind of fan of Tom's work would rank Rock Creek so low among his courses? It is a guy that favors St Andrews Beach among all Renaissance courses. SAB is the exact opposite of RCCC. At St Andrews Beach, the golf course is the star. It doesn't need eye candy to be so much fun to play. Though near the ocean, SAB kind of sits in a valley, a valley with no distractions. There is just the golf course.

There you have it. A different view!
Tim Weiman

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2014, 02:59:14 PM »
Tim,

Quote
Why? Because overall I found the place so overwhelmingly stimulating visually that the golf course itself just couldn't grab my attention. Sounds crazy, I know. But, courses like Cypress Point or Cape Kidnappers - very dramatic locations, to be sure - never did to me what the setting at Rock Creek did. My mind just went elsewhere. I remember the place but not the golf course. Not at all.

I understand what you mean about the rest of the vast landscape, but seriously, you don't remember the golf course?  I walked the property fairly early on while construction was still ongoing and I remember seeing certain holes even from then.  

One question, did you walk or ride?  To me Rock Creek presents much differently from a cart than it does for walking, and for me this raises some interesting questions.

As for where the course ranks among his others, I haven't played them all so I couldn't say.  But I will say that as far as the design goes it is the most impressive of his courses that I have seen.  (This isn't to say it is the best course, but rather the design that most impressed me.)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2014, 03:37:23 PM »
David,

I am being serious. The setting of Rock Creek just overwhelmed me like no other site ever has, perhaps because of scale, I am not sure.

Cypress Point is beautiful, but I found the golf course to be part of the beauty. Not something separate. Cape Kidnappers sure has a wow factor, but I never lost sight of the place as a golf course. The version of the Road hole just stood out, for example. It wasn't overshadowed by the nearby cliffs. The Old Head is sure a "seventh wonder" kind of course, but despite all the drama the reality that many part of the golf course just really aren't very good wasn't obscured.

But to me Rock Creek was different. Somehow the setting - sorry to repeat myself - just overwhelmed. It was just so powerful that my golf architecture junkie brain went into sleep mode I guess.

To the best of my recollection I walked one round and rode another, but I'm not entirely sure.

Again, my best guess is that the scale of the setting is what had such a powerful effect. I found myself typically looking up and beyond the course in a way I have never experienced anywhere else.

If I ever go back, I am going to keep my head down!


Tim Weiman

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2014, 10:20:12 PM »
Rock Creek is certainly an expansive place and it can be visually overwhelming, although in all honesty the location is very nice but nothing out of the ordinary for that part of the world.  The "scale" issue is one thing I was very curious about when I first heard the location of the course and when I first walked the site.  You've heard of Big Sky Country, but really it is Big Everything country.  Four or five hundred yards doesn't look like much when you are staring out over miles by miles, and it is easy for details to get lost among the everything. I was curious as to how Tom, Eric, and his crew would deal with this.  In my opinion they did so wonderfully by creating extremely wide fairways, by utilizing a mix of concave and convex features for green sites, and by really going with the flow of the land (and by hiding their handiwork in the places where they didn't quite go with the flow). 

I might have preferred darker sand in the bunkers, and perhaps some bunkers that more closely tracked the type of erosion that one finds in that type of ranch land, but overall I think they did a tremendous job of creating a course that actually fits on what seems like an infinitely wide landscape.  But I grew up on land very similar, so perhaps for me it is easier to stay focused on the course and not get quite so easily distracted.  Overall, I'd say it fits the landscape better than any other supposed Mountain course I have played.  And it is a terrific rebuttal to anyone who insists that courses on tough terrain need to be disjointed cart ball monstrosities.

The reason I asked if you walked is that, to me, the course presents much better on foot than in a cart. Tom and his crew do a tremendous job of hiding cart traffic which I like, but the side effect is that sometimes the cart ride takes you a roundabout, disjointed path between the holes, and the course loses a bit of the cohesive feel one gets from walking.

Just my opinion of course.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2014, 03:56:35 AM »
David,

Ok. I will come clean. As weird as it may sound, I think my ability to "see" Rock Creek was doomed before I set foot on the golf course.

It started by flying into Spokane and driving to Deer Lodge. Somewhere along Interstate 90 I came across the BNSF railroad and drove along a long unit train of coal cars. The experience was nothing like I had ever seen. It was like a huge snake kept quickly moving along the road.

Crazy, I know. But, it got to me somehow.

Then, it got worse when I arrived in Deer Lodge. Instead of going right to the course I drove through the little town and stumbled upon the old Montana State Prison which is now a museum. So, figuring I'd been to Alcatraz and I should probably see this place too, I had another moving experience. It wasn't the prisoner cells that got to me. It was the building and room where the condemned would be hung.

Oh man, that was scary just imagining what it must have been like walking in that room, knowing it would be the last place you would ever see and it would be all over in just a few minutes.

First, the giant snake, then the gallows. I was pretty much done. But, it got worse. There was something about the entrance to Rock Creek that got to me. The scale of the place first hit me. That little shack at the entrance just told me I was a long way from home.

I never recovered. I went to enjoy a golf architecture get together but never saw the course. I know it is there, but I couldn't see it.

Never had that experience before or since in my golf travels.
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2014, 01:34:17 PM »
Tim:

That is an odd story, but did you ever think maybe that had more to do with yourself than with the golf course?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2014, 01:41:37 PM »
Tim,

Sounds like you had a great trip.  Be careful though, if you spend any more time in the State you might give up on golf and gca altogether. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company profile posted
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2014, 01:56:20 PM »
Tim - yes, that post was fascinating (and your exchange with David instructive). I can imagine myself having a similar reaction, something akin to what Captain Willard describes in "Apocalypse Now": "Mr. Clean was from some South Bronx sh-t-hole, and I think the light and the space of Vietnam really put the zap on his head."  Rock Creek is indeed a stunning expanse.

Reading through this thread and Ran's profile, I thought two things: one, how that much space and that much 'topography' must test -- and measure -- an architect's skill and imagination; and two, that RC could have reminded me of something Stanley Thompson might've done in Canada's mountains, but it didn't -- and from photos seems to demonstrate a much more interesting and varied approach than Thompson ever took.