Defend Bogey?

[Sean_A]

We often hear the phrase "defend par", as if it makes any difference for the vast majority of golfers except to signify a certain ambiguous degree of difficulty.  As a big fan of the bogey score system, which I think should be brought back into use as part of bifurcation, I wondered if archies ever thought about how a course plays for the 15 capper (to randomly pick a higher number out of the hat) in terms of "defending bogey".  

One of the big issues I see with many older, shorter courses is the savvy bogey player can often not take on any risks and easily gain a 5 for 2 points.  I realize some archies are now designing greens to resemble the Alps and I spose that style of design theoretically can work to even the score between good players and higher markers.  I also realize that the odd top-shot bunker is left laying about, but these don't generally catch out many 15 cappers.  Is there anything else archies do to make a course playable, yet challenging enough to halt the walk in the park for 15 cappers smart enough to play to their handicap?  I know of courses where it does seem a 5 and 15 somehow have roughly the same challenge and the pro would east the course for breakfast, but I can't quite figure out why this is the case.  

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Numbers from the German Golf association (rounded):

HCP 37 - 54: 200,000 players
HCP 26 - 36: 150,000
HCP 18 - 25: 120,000
HCP 11 - 17: 70,000
HCP 4 - 10: 25,000
HCP below 4: 4,000

According to these numbers both the 15 capper and the 5 capper are rare creatures. If we want to cater to the vast majority of golfers, we need to look at HCP 25 at least or, in the case of the UK, those without any handicap at all.

Ulrich

[Paul Gray]

I can think of one excellent example which is sadly no more:

The 17th at Hayling, a par 4 dogleg left of 430ish yards, used to have cop bunkers 100 yards short of the green. Also, the fairway used to be big and wide from the tee, allowing for a safe play down the right from the tee but by doing so making the hole longer and bringing those bunkers in the fairway very much into play for the second shot, thus making the bogey golfer think long and hard about strategy.

Sadly, the bunkers are now gone and all of what was the right hand side of the fairway has vanished, meaning the hole is now devoid of choices.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - I think one difference between a 15 and a 5 is actually three differences, i.e. the difference in their final scores caused by the 15 blowing up with triple bogeys on three holes while the 5 manages to scrabble through in one over. Some of that simply can't be helped - a 15 by definition is a ticking time bomb who just might blow up at any time. Some of it though can be explained: 1. lost balls, 2. severly perched greens, 3. daunting forced-carries, and 4. fairway hazards as severe as the Church Pews or Hells Half Acre. I'm an average hack who occasionally pays attention and gets it together enough to play decently. On those rare times, I wouldn't be afraid of match-playing even a 5 capper (straight-up), as long as the course we played wasn't characterized by the 4 elements above.  

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

Interesting question.  I have never thought about it in quite that way ... to me there is more of a continuum of players, and it's important for a course to address that whole spectrum instead of just a couple of points along the way.

In general, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting the wily Colonel Bogey-type players make their 5's for 4, if they are smart enough not to take the bait and consistent enough to avoid losing strokes in the process.  But some of those holes ought to tempt them to go for it, and others ought to stick a hazard right in their wheelhouse and make them play around it.

[Chris DeToro]

This is an interesting point.  I wonder how many bogey golfers leverage the strategy of playing for bogeys however.  I understand your point about the more savvy bogey player, but I wonder just how many of those savvy players there are.  There's just something in the human nature of golfers that forces them to take more chances

[Tom_Doak]

This is an interesting point.  I wonder how many bogey golfers leverage the strategy of playing for bogeys however.  I understand your point about the more savvy bogey player, but I wonder just how many of those savvy players there are.  There's just something in the human nature of golfers that forces them to take more chances

Maybe the guys you play with, Chris.  But I've played with plenty of older guys in the UK who accept their limitations and just kick your ass making pars and bogeys with relatively few GIR.  These are the guys that "Colonel Bogey" was originally named after, and they are very tough opponents in a fourball or foursomes match.

[Paul Gray]

This is an interesting point.  I wonder how many bogey golfers leverage the strategy of playing for bogeys however.  I understand your point about the more savvy bogey player, but I wonder just how many of those savvy players there are.  There's just something in the human nature of golfers that forces them to take more chances

Maybe the guys you play with, Chris.  But I've played with plenty of older guys in the UK who accept their limitations and just kick your ass making pars and bogeys with relatively few GIR.  These are the guys that "Colonel Bogey" was originally named after, and they are very tough opponents in a fourball or foursomes match.

I rather fear those older guys are a product of the sort of game they grew older playing and, as such, are something of a dying breed thanks to the intrusion of golf-darts. Nonetheless, they do still exist and I had the great pleasure of being paired with a couple of them in a club competition recently. I wouldn't have fancied giving them a handful of shots and attempting to beat them in matchplay!

[Thomas Dai]

Picking 15 hcp 'out of the hat' was actually pretty fair as 14-15 is supposed to be the average hcp for a UK male.

But 15 hcp'ers are 15 hcp'ers for a reason, or rather several reasons, including but (as lawyers say) 'not limited to' - lack of talent, no golf brain/no course management skills, over-ambitiousness, awful short game/putting.

One category of 15 or so hcpper that Sean has very correctly identified, and that Tom also mentions however, is the savvy player. Probably someone who previously used to be a lot better player but due to age/strength now doesn't hit the ball far enough to still play to a lower hcp, and being older and therefore probably retired with lots of time available, plays a hell of a lot golf so has a very 'sharp' game. These guys are dangerous opponents and really know how to 'use their hcps'. Very much down the middle, down the middle, pitch/chip, 1 or 2 putt and an easy bogey/net par goes on the card over and over again.

What makes them play/score worse though? Narrower fairways and more hazards etc? No, their straight and savvy so not much effect on their game/score. I would suggest what would effect them would be a combination of things such as longer 'no-roll' fairway grass, raised 'can't hit it high enough and stop it quick"' greens, forced carries and long par-3's (no SI shot). Mostly exactly the things which came up on the 'What design feature do you dislike the most' thread. The saving grace for other 15 hcppers however, is that these guys tend to focus on Senior's golf. Phew!

As to the 'defend par' element, par and medal play have a interesting effect on golfers brains as in the "if I don't make par I'll drop a shot" mentality. Most amateur golf is 18-holes and someone is most likely always going to have a 'hot day' and there's only ever one winner so without playing aggressively a player is pretty unlikely to win ('win' as distinct from 'place' if you see the difference).

Now over 36 or 54 or 72-holes however, the game plan changes completely. Screw-ups hurt if you're near the cut line, and you ain't got a chance of winning unless you make the cut, so to be in any way remotely successful you better play brain golf and use that 15th club', the one between the ears. Perhaps some of the tour or ex-tour players who post herein would care to comment on this aspect.

atb

[Jason Topp]

Numbers from the German Golf association (rounded):

HCP 37 - 54: 200,000 players
HCP 26 - 36: 150,000
HCP 18 - 25: 120,000
HCP 11 - 17: 70,000
HCP 4 - 10: 25,000
HCP below 4: 4,000

According to these numbers both the 15 capper and the 5 capper are rare creatures. If we want to cater to the vast majority of golfers, we need to look at HCP 25 at least or, in the case of the UK, those without any handicap at all.

I wonder how these numbers would look if you combined them with the number of rounds played.  The 17 and better handicaps play a lot more rounds than the higher handicaps.

[Rich Goodale]

I'll vouch for Mr. Hendren 8 days of the week....

[Jon Wiggett]

Numbers from the German Golf association (rounded):

HCP 37 - 54: 200,000 players
HCP 26 - 36: 150,000
HCP 18 - 25: 120,000
HCP 11 - 17: 70,000
HCP 4 - 10: 25,000
HCP below 4: 4,000

According to these numbers both the 15 capper and the 5 capper are rare creatures. If we want to cater to the vast majority of golfers, we need to look at HCP 25 at least or, in the case of the UK, those without any handicap at all.

I wonder how these numbers would look if you combined them with the number of rounds played.  The 17 and better handicaps play a lot more rounds than the higher handicaps.

Jason,

you may be correct but I suspect the main reason for so many high handicappers in certain countries including Germany is the absurd idea of having 37-54 handicaps. People will usually only attain the lowest acceptable standard meaning the lower you place the bar the worse the players become. My experience has taught me that the vast majority of these 37-54 handicappers could quite comfortably play to a 36 but never have to learn to so don't.

I would suggest that the less matchplay is being played the less bogey golf is being catered for.

Jon

[Greg Taylor]

Numbers from the German Golf association (rounded):

HCP 37 - 54: 200,000 players
HCP 26 - 36: 150,000
HCP 18 - 25: 120,000
HCP 11 - 17: 70,000
HCP 4 - 10: 25,000
HCP below 4: 4,000

According to these numbers both the 15 capper and the 5 capper are rare creatures. If we want to cater to the vast majority of golfers, we need to look at HCP 25 at least or, in the case of the UK, those without any handicap at all.

I wonder how these numbers would look if you combined them with the number of rounds played.  The 17 and better handicaps play a lot more rounds than the higher handicaps.

Jason,

you may be correct but I suspect the main reason for so many high handicappers in certain countries including Germany is the absurd idea of having 37-54 handicaps. People will usually only attain the lowest acceptable standard meaning the lower you place the bar the worse the players become. My experience has taught me that the vast majority of these 37-54 handicappers could quite comfortably play to a 36 but never have to learn to so don't.

I would suggest that the less matchplay is being played the less bogey golf is being catered for.

Jon

Agreed - not a representative sample....

[Paul Gray]

The figures I found made the average male UK handicap 18.4 for club members and 18.0 for society members.

[Ulrich Mayring]

If you are not counting the players without handicaps (i. e. with a playing standard worse than HCP 28), then it is no wonder that the average comes out to 18. In Germany 99% of all players have a handicap and are a member of a club, therefore my statistics are actually representative of the golf played in Germany. And I suspect that in other countries the situation is similar, but they don't have the data to show it. The situation in Germany is peculiar, because you cannot play golf without being in those statistics. In other countries, especially the US, you can easily escape the kind of scrutiny that the German Golf Association puts you under.

Therefore you need to come to terms with the fact that the average score played is double bogey and not bogey.

Ulrich

[Jud_T]

What about finding interesting ground with a sand base, building great greens, scattering some bunkers randomly about, making some holes long and some short based primarily on what Mother Nature gives you and not "catering" to anyone? Sounds to me like Sean's tired of playing to his number yet having to buy the Colonel a pint at the 19th hole anyway in his weekly game...

[Chris DeToro]

Ulrich's numbers are spot on--this is something I've discussed with my counterparts in Germany many times.  Plus since golf isn't as developed there as other markets, there just aren't as many low handicap players. 

[Paul Gray]

What about finding interesting ground with a sand base, building great greens, scattering some bunkers randomly about, making some holes long and some short based primarily on what Mother Nature gives you and not "catering" to anyone? Sounds to me like Sean's tired of playing to his number yet having to buy the Colonel a pint at the 19th hole anyway in his weekly game...

Crazy talk. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Let's not look at golfers, but at courses. The reason being that the number of courses in most countries is fairly well-known. Germany has 700 courses (18 hole equivalents) and about 29,000 single digit handicappers. That makes about 41 single digit handicappers per course.

Does the average club in the UK have significantly more than that? If not, then I'd wager that the average score in the UK is also double bogey and there is no higher standard of play than in Germany.

Ulrich

[Jud_T]

Ulrich,

While there are legitimate differences in handicap systems I'd guess that the average US player is quite similar.  I believe the average player who holds a handicap is a 15; when you add in the large number who don't I'd guess the average is closer to 18.  I'd also guess that on a per round average that it's not dramatically lower.

[Brent Hutto]

A 15-handicapper who played to a 3 at some point during his life is a totally different golfer than a 15-handicapper who has never been better than 14. In stroke play, maybe it all evens out. But in match play the guy who has shot around par a hundred times but now shoots in the 80's (call him Colonel Has-Been) will beat Captain Never-Was about 9 times out of 10.

Separate question. Can anyone give me a brief precis of the "Bogey" scoring that you guys often refer to? Is the "Bogey" for a course more or less one stroke per hole higher than "Par" or is it more complicated than that? I really have no idea what you're describing, it seems to date from before I took up the game 20 years ago.

[Mike Hendren]

The double-bogey is committed - not extracted. 

Trust me,

Bogey

[Mark Chaplin]

I spent a few days with a good friend in Clementon, NJ this week, one of his stock sayings is "bogey is a good score at Pine Valley".

[Tom_Doak]

Separate question. Can anyone give me a brief precis of the "Bogey" scoring that you guys often refer to? Is the "Bogey" for a course more or less one stroke per hole higher than "Par" or is it more complicated than that? I really have no idea what you're describing, it seems to date from before I took up the game 20 years ago.

Brent:

Par as a number on the scorecard didn't come into fashion until well after 1900, although it was apparently invented well before that as the standard for the expert player.

In the late 1800's, a concept similar to par was floated around Britain, with the canny senior player "Colonel Bogey" used as the standard for coming up with a course's "Bogey" rating.  Basically, any long par-3 was a Bogey 4; any par-4 over about 390-400 yards was a Bogey 5; and occasionally there could be a long hole that was a Bogey 6.  Bogey, instead of par, was the standard on the scorecards of the day, and still appeared on some scorecards when I lived there in 1982.  [Swinley Forest had the Bogey of 74 on its card, instead of its strict par of 68.]

When American courses started to make Par the standard in the early 1900's, there was a dichotomy ... but it really got muddied when "bogey" became adopted as the term for one stroke above par on any hole, because up to that point Bogey and Par were sometimes the same for a hole, and sometimes not.

[Mark Pearce]

The Golf House Club at Elie still has an annual competition played against the bogey card.  Bogey at Elie is 75 with, I think, the 1st, 9th, 12th, 16th and 17th playing as bogey 5s.  The rest of the holes have bogey equal to their current par score.