Triplex(riding) greens mowers at high end facilities

[Joe Hancock]

Why is it so rare? I noticed in Jon Cavaliers' Myopia thread that they mow greens with a rider, yet I hear so many supers say they could never get away with it...as if it's a negative somehow. Dan Lucas at Kingsley Club mows with a rider, and those are some of the best greens in the country, in my opinion.

So who really wants the walk mowing? Is it certain memberships? Is it a superintendent thing?

For what it's worth, I see more damage in the form of wear and tear on courses that walk mow, particularly where the staff rocks back  the mower to make a spin/ turn.

Any observations or answers that make sense?

Joe

[Lou_Duran]

Maybe because the quality of the cut isn't as good?  I've also noticed some damage/compaction where the Triplex turns sharply past the fringe.  And how well does a triplex do when going around the edges and the collars on the final cut?

I have a couple question for superintendents (sorry to threadjack).  How many push green mowers does it take to prudently maintain a moderately busy golf course (20-25k rounds) with average size greens?  How difficult is it to maintain the consistency of cut and height among all mowers?  Is it necessary to always have one or more in reserve for failure or maintenance of the others?

On a related subject, assuming Bermuda greens, fairways, tees and roughs, is one full time mechanic sufficient for this example course?

[RJ_Daley]

Interesting question Joe.  I'd be interested to hear what our contributing supers say.  As a lay person, I get the walk mower rocking it back to make the back and forth 180 turns.  Is it a width thing with the riding mower triplex too wide to avoid scalping on some ridges and slope crests?  And given need to change the angles periodically and not mow always in the same directions back and forth and go 90degree to line of mowing alternatively, is that harder to avoid the sharpe contours and scalping?  

[Ben Sims]

Joe,

It's all about perceptions. Walk mow = quality and time spent. Triplex = lazy and quick. Obviously that's not the case, but that's the perception. For every scalping done by a triplex, I'll find you a walk mown golf course that has some scalping. What I do think gets a due amount of attention is the dreaded "triplex ring" on the cleanup cut at some courses.  I think John Deere tried to combat that issue by making a triplex with some sort of offset? I can't remember.

At any rate, cutting units (on both walk mowers and triplex's) have gotten so sensitive and precise that there really isn't much difference between the cut of one vs. the other. I need to study some more on this.

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - this will sound like a smart-ass question but I don't mean it to be: are those high end facilities paying high-end wages to their  mowing/maintenance crews?

I don't know if they are or not (I assume they are), but as a teenager I worked two summers on a modest public golf course (for modest wages, but good enough for me). I'd like to think I was a fairly conscientious teenager, but they had me on a riding mower cutting greens within a few days of starting, and I knew even then that I wasn't doing a very good job of it (try as I might). The few times (when the riding mower broke down) I cut the greens with a walking mower it turned out much better.

Which is to say: it seems to that if you don't have quality, experienced people (who are being paid well enough not to move on too quickly or too often) you are much safer/better off having them mow by hand/walking than by riding.

Then again, maybe this is a ridiculous post even to assume the possibility that this could be the case at a high end club. Maybe it's just that members don't like thoe noise or look of those riiding mowers.

Peter

[Jason Topp]

At both my clubs they hand mow during peak season and triplex when the grass grows more slowly.  I do not think anyone notices the difference. 

I suspect the prevelance of hand mowing has more to do with the perception of quality as opposed to any actual improvement in quality.

[Jon Wiggett]

Joe,

apart from the obvious cosmetic differences there are several other differences. In a straight line both types are similar but the triplex causes more compaction when dropping and lifting the cutting units as well as turning. It also creates so called triplex ring and does not roll as well as a hand mower. If both types are set up and used correctly it is my opinion that the hand mower is preferable but there is not so much between the two.

Jon

[RDecker]

The decision to ride or walk mow greens involves a number of factors, including the green contours and surrounds, how much room to maneuver equipment on and off... The clubs budget, staffing and turf type can also be a consideration and soil types and climate can also play a roll.  One main motivation for a number of supers is simply to keep a machine that runs on hot, toxic hydraulic oil (triplex) off of their putting surfaces.  I know there are hybrids now that eliminate that possibility but that used to be and still can be a factor.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I reckon its 51-49 in favour of the hand mower!

[Steve Okula]

We have 36 holes, which includes 40 greens with practice areas, and we are fairly up-scale for this part of the world (France). The larger greens are regularly mowed with a triplex, but the ten smallest greens are mowed with walk-behind (or pedestrian, for you Engilsh types). The quality of cut across the putting surface is the same for both mowers, but on the small greens  the triplexes must necessarily turn more sharply for the outside lap, which stresses the turf, even if we only do it twice a week. The little greens also tend to be in tighter, often shadier settings, where there isn't a lot of room for the triplex to make its turns without bruising the surrounds, unless the mower constantly mows in the same direction, which would result in establishing a grain.

That is during the growing season, from mid-March through October, We stay open through the winter months, when we mow walk-behind only and then once or twice per week.

When we roll greens however, the same roller wil do all the greens on the course.

Occasionally we've had visitors from high-end clubs in the States, who have expressed surprise that any of our greens are mowed triplex.

[SB]

Triplexes are sometimes not a good option on greens that either have a lot of undulation, or have very little space on the side of the green, because they can't make a turn safely.  You also might get a more consistent cut with a walker if the three reels on the triplexes aren't set perfectly.  It's also common to triplex, but use a walk mower for the cleanup cut, particularly in the off season.

[Joe Bausch]

Don't some courses do a combo of a triplex and some walk mowing certain areas?

[Tom_Doak]

I could understand if a course had a bunch of smallish greens surrounded by bunkers and steep fall-offs, that walk-mowing the greens might be more efficient.  Otherwise, no way.

I know that in Bandon, they walk-mowed greens all the time because the damage done by hydraulic leaks was so difficult to fix that they were best avoided at all costs.  But, as soon as they got an electrically-driven triplex with no hydraulic fluid, they switched over to triplexes for at least some of the time.  The triplexes didn't have any problems with the greens contours on Old Macdonald, so I'd say they can handle most contours.

[Jon Wall]

An analogy that comes to mind is the fashion of coffee shop brewing individual drinks for customers - What percentage of the customer base would recognise the difference between an individually made cup of coffee and one from a batch brew?

Similarly with greens, in the eyes of the golfer the more time spent on preparation the better the green will be.

Are there large tangible differences between the two for the majority of players? Essentially no. However, I'll briefly expand on why I prefer walk mowers:

The thinner stripes created by walk mowers create a more eye catching spectacle (more so with cool season species and paspalum - much less so with bermuda).

With floating head walk mowers (which are now standard) there is also a larger cylindrical drum rolling behind the cutting unit, which gives an extra roll on the turf which cannot be replicated by a triplex. Does this add extra speed? Possibly very little, but compared to a triplex it should create a smoother surface. Triplex mowers are capable ofleaving tyre prints when cutting a wet green or one with a higher thatch content (usually poa).

During the winter months the significantly higher weight of the triplex can add additional stress to what is already a green pushed to its limit. Growing bermuda in S.E Asia I would not want the extra weight on the green, the shearing effect which occurs during cleanup laps as well as the extra damage caused by turning in areas where there is little room to maneuver.


One other possible reason, especially in Asia is the relative low cost of staff. If I can avoid the 'triplex stigma' which exists for a few extra RMB/dong/riels then why would I not?

[Mike_Young]

The quality of cut can be just as good with a triplex as a walker.  The big issue is turning.  IMHO if a course is mowed with triplexes and the clean up cuts are done with a walker there is no problem.  The  membership would never know the difference.  TD makes a good point regarding leaks.

[jeffwarne]

An analogy that comes to mind is the fashion of coffee shop brewing individual drinks for customers - What percentage of the customer base would recognise the difference between an individually made cup of coffee and one from a batch brew?

Similarly with greens, in the eyes of the golfer the more time spent on preparation the better the green will be.

Which is a perfect analogy.
Some people would rather pay more , AND wait in line .

[Joe Hancock]

So, the proximity of this bunker ought to require a walking mower, but they found a way in spite of......

Thanks for the replies thus far. I think the Veblan Effect (?) is part of the answer, whereby perception creates the value. I am also sure that there are some designs that make it more sensible to walk rather than ride, but it's likely a small number compared to the actual number of clubs walk-mowing.

No one has mentioned PSI of the average-sized greenkeeper walking across the green at a brisk pace....any stats to compare with the ground PSI of a riding mower?

Joe

EDIT: Photo credit to Jon Cavalier on the Myopia Hunt Club thread.

[Jon Wiggett]

Joe,

as regarding to the PSI if you think about it logically on an average course you get many hundred or possibly thousand footfalls on a golf green per day yet not notable damage but just pass over once per day with the triplex and you get triplex ring. Damage caused by a triplex is considerably higher than a walk behind.

Jon

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I could understand if a course had a bunch of smallish greens surrounded by bunkers and steep fall-offs, that walk-mowing the greens might be more efficient.  Otherwise, no way.

I know that in Bandon, they walk-mowed greens all the time because the damage done by hydraulic leaks was so difficult to fix that they were best avoided at all costs.  But, as soon as they got an electrically-driven triplex with no hydraulic fluid, they switched over to triplexes for at least some of the time.  The triplexes didn't have any problems with the greens contours on Old Macdonald, so I'd say they can handle most contours.

I don't think you could even walk mow Old Mac's greens even if you wanted to, I'd love to know the total greens acreage of that course.  I'd guess they'd need about 7-8 units just to get it done before a full tee sheet.  One thing I did notice at Old Mac was some highly stressed turf where the triplexes turned.  But c'est la vie.  As for hydraulic leaks, if you use a roller you are risking leaks as well.  At my course we replaced an entire roller pass from our nursery when a line blew on the same day. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

So, the proximity of this bunker ought to require a walking mower, but they found a way in spite of......

Thanks for the replies thus far. I think the Veblan Effect (?) is part of the answer, whereby perception creates the value. I am also sure that there are some designs that make it more sensible to walk rather than ride, but it's likely a small number compared to the actual number of clubs walk-mowing.

No one has mentioned PSI of the average-sized greenkeeper walking across the green at a brisk pace....any stats to compare with the ground PSI of a riding mower?

Joe

EDIT: Photo credit to Jon Cavalier on the Myopia Hunt Club thread.

Looking through the entire Myopia tour, the greens have been mowed with walk mowers. You can see them from several angles and photos. Pics may be from a short staffed day or low play day.
Triplex with tight surrounds 1x or 2x a week isn't going to hurt and probably not show wear, I do not think that this bunker is tight to the bunker. We had several at Long Cove where the 26" collar went right to the wooden bulkhead. We walkmowed. When triplexing to verticut, we hD to turn on the green. That's tight

[Craig Sweet]

We are certainly not a "high end" country club and we walk mow nearly everyday. This time of year, when staff levels are low, we triplex somedays and walk mow other days...depends on what we need to get done that day.

[MClutterbuck]

Hydraulic leaks scare the Supers I know.