News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« on: August 25, 2003, 08:53:59 PM »
Well, White Manor, my home course, finally re-opened this week after nearly 2 summers!

For those of you not inthe Philadelphia area and are not familiar with the controversial project let me fill you in. White Manor is a course that was built around 1950's by William and David Gordon, a father and son team from Philadelphia.  The Gordon's had built some fine courses including one of the Saucon Valleys, Sunnybrook, Dupont and Stanwich Club just to name a few.

The course has played host to a few tournaments over the years, most notably the McDonald's LPGA before it became a major and moved to Dupont to use the 2nd course for the pro-am.  It was always considered a "good course", it was never going to be on the same level as the Top Flynn's in the area or some of the other top shelf philly courses, but it was a good course on a good piece of land that was over ridden with trees, christmas style trees to be specific.

As the case with many coures today, White Manor was built basically treeless, in-fact the course was formerly a dairyfarm when the club moved there.  However, as the story goes one of the members got a "deal" on a bunch of christmas style trees and put them all over the course.  

Anyone who has played the course over the past twenty years can attest to the fact of the ridiculous amount of trees that are on the course and that they totally took away from the playability of the course.  

In the summer of 2000 White Manor, which had been known around the area as having some of the fastest and hardest greens in the area(Although not on the same level as Philmont or Rolling Green), came down with the same disease as many of the other courses, anthraxnos.   While we tried burning 9 greens and re-seeding, in an effort to do 9 greens at a time, the new 9 greens that were re-seeded were still suffering with disease.  

Some of the members started searching around as to possible remedies/changes that could be made and they came across Bobby Weed.  This was at the same time SI was doing the "this old course" set of articles about Weed's project at University of Florida.  They flew Bobby up from Jacksonville to take a look and to come up with a proposal.  The club was not asking for much, maybe a recomondation to rebuild the greens and make some minor changes.

What Weed basically said was that while he loved the piece of land the course was on, he was not interested in a band-aid project, he believed the land had so much potential, that the only project he would be interested would be a total "renovation/start over".  He would not only rebuild all of the greens, but also replace every bunker, tee, and every piece of grass on the course, and the removal of about 1000 trees.  While the routing would not change everything else on the course would.  

While it was very difficult gaining membership approval the club did get the approval needed with the understanding that the course would be closed for 1 summer, and 1 summer only.  

Everyone knows about the harsh winter we had up North this year and it obviously affected construction, 1 summer turned into almost two full summers as we were closed from memorial day 2002 almost Labor day 2003, as we opened on August 23rd.  

While I was skeptical throughout the project, believing that we had a fine course that didn't need much more than tree removal and new greens, also worried that the course would take on too much of "modern" look, I must say that after playing the course all weekend, I have nothing but smiles and admiration at what Bobby Weed and his assistant Scot Sherman did.  

White Manor does not lack a poor golf hole any more.  Every hole makes you think, much like some of Pete Dye's better courses.  It is as fun of a course that you will play in the Philadelphia area and I now believe while it may never and can never be better than the Flynn masterpieces it ranks right up there.  

I know the ever growing trend in golf these days is to do a complete restoration, back to Flynn, a Ross, a Tilly, but let me say that for some courses this is not a viable option.  White Manor didn't have one of those courses but what they did have was a great piece of land with great routing, Bobby Weed made the most of it and the result is an overwhelming shining success.

I would love to show off our course and get some unbiased feedback from GCA'ers as the weeks and months go on.  
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

TEPaul

Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2003, 09:04:00 PM »
jmandel:

I'd love to come over and just walk around the course--I knew the old one extremely well. I live literally 1/4 mile from White Manor.

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2003, 09:25:33 PM »
jmandel

Yes!  Your description of that impressionistic landscape has now been found.  

I would love to walk it with you both.  I have many fond memories of White Manor years back.

Willie

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2003, 09:31:56 PM »
Willie and Tom,

Lets try and set up a time to either walk or play the course (weekdays after 5:30) or any weekend afternoon after this week works for me.  If we get mayday, who i know wanted to walk it, and wayne, we can walk it one afternoon and then have dinner/drinks at the club.  
of course any other gca'er is welcome as well.


jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2003, 09:42:47 PM »
Jason

Unfortunately for me I'm stranded in New England until September.  However, keep me informed and invited because I really want to see and feel what you have accomplished.

Willie

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2003, 09:45:56 PM »
Willie,

will do, like i said this week and especially this weekend are bad anyway, let me know when your back in town though and we'll set something up
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

wsmorrison

Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2003, 07:37:30 AM »
Jason,
Count me in.  Look forward to seeing you again.  I only saw the previous course once when RGGC was closed and WM extended us privileges.  I have spoken with Bobby Weed and his group several times and am sorry that I never met him at your club.  Would love to walk the property with you, TEP, Bill, and even Mayday  ;).   Sometime in September would be great, early in the month better than later.
Regards,
Wayne

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2003, 08:16:34 AM »
Congratulations on the renovation!!

I have an interesting story about White Manor.

I was up in Cooperstown, NY about 5 years ago, and there are obviously a lot of little shops selling baseball memorabilia.  One shop had a nice white Wilson "pro" style bag with a red member's bagtag:  "Mike Schmidt" was the name and White Manor was the club.


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2003, 08:24:45 AM »
 Sounds great(except for the Wayne part)
AKA Mayday

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2003, 09:48:00 AM »
Redanman,

Thanks for the great review, you said it better than I could have.

One correction, the hole you descirbed as 12 is actually 13, and you forgot to mention that besides the 460 it plays from the back, their is OB on the left, a small pond on the right and the minimum you can have in is about 160-170 since the creek and pond cut in.  This hole plays to one of the toughest greens on the course as well, the old 13 was great, this one is magnificent!

A couple of other holes that you didn't mention.  

# 1 Now plays about 400-410 downhill all the way to a green sitting just on the other side of the creek.  If anyone remembers what the old #1 was like this is a dramatic change.  Their was much debate when Bobby built this hole actually, at first he was going to leave the green where it was and just widen the fairway a bit, but after some convincing of a member to put the hole this way, he went ahead and did it.  Bobby was worried, and with good reason, that doing this would slow up play too much on the first hole and even considered switching the nine's because of this.  #1 has played extrememly difficult this past weekend because, even if you hit a really good drive you are still going to have at least about 130 (150 for most) left on a severe downhill lie playing to a green that sits just over a creek that is more wide than deep.

#2 Weed changed this hole from a funky par 5 double-dog leg to a solid par 4, stretched to about 420 yards, probably more from the tips, and he eliminated the 1st dog leg.  

#3This was probably the biggest change that no one expected on the course.  #3 used to play about 220 from the tips and about 180-190 for the members.  We have now gone to a 5 tee system and most members have been playing from the Bronze Tees, which are 6600 yards, while the tips go back to about 7000 yards, the next set is about 6100 yards.  So anyway, on opening day from the bronze tees #3 was playing 244 yards, and 260 from the tips!!! Most members were in shock and awe to say the least, but to Don Brown's credit the hole was playing down wind and played about 15 yards less even though it is not really down hill.  

#7  Weed to drab par 4 with a couple of bunkers cutting the fairway about 30 short of the green.  Much like 15, Weed moved the tees up to about 335 yards from the tips, and any where from 315-290 from the bronzes.  With elevated tees this hole is now a risk reward drivable par 4.  There are bunkers that are about 180 to carry on the right side of the fairway and a huge bunker about 260 to carry on the left side of the fairway that if you get in is total death as it is still about 40 yards to the hole.  He also enlargened the pond that formerly sat between 7 and 17 and brought it up the right side of the green on 7, bringing the water into play if you go for the green and miss it long or right.  On opening day one of our young guns hit driver from the tips and ran it off the green and came up about 5 feet from going into the water!

#8- One of the problems we had with our par 3's was that 3 of the 4 par 3's  played 165-180 everyday and more often than not played the same club.  #8 was one of those that played over a pond but the green didn't start for about 15 yards after the pond.  Now Weed shortened the hole to about 165 from the tips, shrunk the green by about 20 percent and brought the pond right up to the green.  Not to mention the creek that sits 10 yards past the green!

One other note on 17#, Weed brought the green out to sit right on top of the pond, creating another risk reward hole, this time with a par 5.  It plays about 550 from the Bronze tees, up to about 580 from the tips, howerever this hole was playing down wind all weekend and the tee shot is dramatically downhill.  Alot of players found themselves with 210-225 of basically all carry to a green that is receptive, but does have a creek behind it.  One of my playing partners one Sunday was put in a predicament on the 1st hole of the day as this was our starting point for the shotgun.  He had 210 left of which he would have to carry the lake/pond,the hole was playing downwind as well.  He chose to go for it and pulled his shot left into the lake, as the carry gets longer to the left,  this was a great illustration of a hole where formerly only the longest players at the club could go for it, and at that there wasn't much of a chance of holding the green.

One other thing that many members noticed over the weekend was that the wind was playing much more of a factor than it had ever done so before because of the tree clearing, this added another thinking element while playing.

I really felt that you had to think your way around this course and be very patient with it.  Talking to Don Brown and his assistant Vince DeFusco, we all agreed that it would be tough to get those greens at more than a 10 or 11 because of all the contours in them, we also believe that when those greens are fast it will be a different course.

The course was defintily playing firm and fast this weekend, and I was pleased to hear both from the Arhcitects and Superintendents that this was the way they planned to keep them.  Bobby told me he wants you to be able to run the ball up on many holes, and there are only a few holes where this isn't possible.  

I will start working on a date to get everyone together in early Sept. for everyone to at least walk the course, and hopefully within the next month or two I will be able to get something set up for you to play it.

Wayne and Mayday, I know that my asst. pros said that in a few weeks we were going to allow RG members out to play on their own to thank them for their genorosity during our shutdown.

I believe we are going to do so for many of the other clubs that provided us with reciprocity as well, but that prob. wont be for about a month.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2003, 09:28:22 PM »
Dan,

that is an interesting story about Schmidt, i wish that bag was still around as that would be a nice peice of memorabilia for the club.

mike schmidt was indeed a member at white manor for a little while.  he was good friends with our former longtime pro Alan Flashner.  i was young when he was there but as the story goes, schmidt wouldnt even enter the clubhouse, he would drive thru the maintenance entrance to the pro shop and head straight out to the course.  Von Hayes was a member for a short time as well, but i remember him being a bit friendier.

Schmidt actually was going to build a course in Florida and Flash actually left the club to go with him, unfortunately those plans fell through and Flash was out of a job :-\
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike_Cirba

Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2003, 10:09:55 PM »
jmandel;

I'd love to come over and see the changes when you set it up.  I've played the "Old White", and can only imagine that the course is a lot more interesting with the changes that you and redanman describe.

Thanks for updating us as well as for your kind invite.  

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2003, 03:30:15 PM »
Congrats on a successful major project!!!

KLP

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:White Manor renovation-Philadelphia
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2003, 08:24:11 PM »
Thanks,

Of course, i guess the fiscal responsible part of the club will feel it is a success if and when we add about 30 dues paying members, but i think alot of us already feel that it was a success.  

I will post pic's as soon as i get the chance
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back