Ballyhack,What do you care to measure? Can 1 golf course be...

[Bill Brightly]

Can you guys comment on the tall fescue? It looks fantastic, does it come into play on a regular basis? If yes, does that slow play and makes recovery quite difficult?

I ask because there is a movement to add this to my course.

[JBovay]

Bill,

From my experience (just 45 holes): yes, yes, and sorta. But I was able to find my ball often if I could see it down from the tee, and I think the goats tended by the maintenance staff help keep the long grass playable and balls find-able.

[Carl Rogers]

Can you guys comment on the tall fescue? It looks fantastic, does it come into play on a regular basis? If yes, does that slow play and makes recovery quite difficult?
I ask because there is a movement to add this to my course.

The fescue issue is, on many holes, a function of the steepness of the terrain.  See my initial post. 
I think you should add it to your courses.  I would like to see more written on the site about Ballyhack.
I wonder what the newest Confidential Guide will say about it.

[Lester George]

TD,

The trees behind number 17 green are slated to come out.  In retrospect, I should have left none of them.  Good catch.

Lester

[Kevin Lynch]

Can you guys comment on the tall fescue? It looks fantastic, does it come into play on a regular basis? If yes, does that slow play and makes recovery quite difficult?

I ask because there is a movement to add this to my course.

Over my years visiting Ballyhack, the severity of the fescue has varied quite a bit.  Part of that may have been normal seasonal variation, while some of the variation may have been maintenance decisions.  From discussions with staff & members, the less-severe version this year was intended, and was quite noticeable to me.

The severity of the native areas is one factor at Ballyhack that tends to command a disproportionate amount of attention.  When it is at its most severe, it can blind players to many of the features & options of the course.  One of the George Cup participants this year commented that their initial impression of the course last year was that the course was a bit one-dimensional and penal.  After seeing the course in a less-severe state this year, he fully appreciated the variety, strategy & plain fun of the course.  The fairways likely were just as wide each year, but the absolute punishment in the past could be overwhelming.

To me, this is a bit of a shame, because I think so highly of the design at Ballyhack. In terms of variety, strategy, memorability, aesthetics and fun, Ballyhack is in rarefied air, with only Merion giving it a contest from my experience.  When those factors are clouded by peripheral considerations like lost-ball rough and native areas, it is a shame.

In my mind, Ballyhack would still be incredibly challenging even if all the native areas were lowered to 2-3 inch rough, similar to what lies in the vast areas between holes at Merion.  The severe slopes provide plenty of challenge, with the slopes of the greens and soft sand bunkers making sure no one would get a free ride. 

When I first played the course in 2010, the native areas hadn't yet grown in, and it was the best playing experience of my life.  I'm not sure if that type of playing condition is feasible given maintenance restraints and maturity of the course, but there's no doubt the native areas cloud the overall perception of an amazing design. 

[Andy Hughes]

"The bunkers on #5 were mentioned as a question on the quiz. Amazing the number of balls that were found when they were redone"

What was changed to the bunkers on 5?  I hope the hole (the most Irish hole in America!) was not changed much. It's fabulous.  Where do you drive it?  Way left to the flat? To the wide open right?  As near as possible to the bunkers?  Over the bunkers?  What the heck do you do on the second shot?  Actually, where is the pin, where are the slopes, is there a nice slope I can safely use to curl the ball somewhere near the hole, make sure you don't hit just a tad short cause then you're rolling back down the hill but please God don't leave me 40 (or 100!) feet above the hole.  Not sure there is any other hole out there that generates more internal monologue for me than 5.

I think the course is definitely walkable (though some of the walking would be a little annoying such as the walk around from the 11th tee), but I'd rather ride as it makes it easier to get 45-54 holes in. When there, I want to play as many holes as possible.  Kevin rides when there and because of the, ahem, uniqueness of his tee shots he still walks at least 7 miles per round over some incredibly challenging terrain 
Personally, I much prefer walking but even moresi I prefer to get as much Ballyhack golf in as possible and that means a cart. The course is so much fun and has so many holes I adore that it seems not much price to pay to use a cart.

To this day, I still do not quite get number 4, and that's in spite of the fact that I love the green site, and I get such a kick out of watching a draw land short, scoot on and start rolling, hopefully towards the hole.  I don't know the answer but I secretly wish somehow the entire landing area could be redone into something that makes more sense to me.  But don't tell Lester I said that!

[Kevin Lynch]

"The bunkers on #5 were mentioned as a question on the quiz. Amazing the number of balls that were found when they were redone"

What was changed to the bunkers on 5?  I hope the hole (the most Irish hole in America!) was not changed much. It's fabulous.  Where do you drive it?  Way left to the flat? To the wide open right?  As near as possible to the bunkers?  Over the bunkers?  What the heck do you do on the second shot?  Actually, where is the pin, where are the slopes, is there a nice slope I can safely use to curl the ball somewhere near the hole, make sure you don't hit just a tad short cause then you're rolling back down the hill but please God don't leave me 40 (or 100!) feet above the hole.  Not sure there is any other hole out there that generates more internal monologue for me than 5.

I think the course is definitely walkable (though some of the walking would be a little annoying such as the walk around from the 11th tee), but I'd rather ride as it makes it easier to get 45-54 holes in. When there, I want to play as many holes as possible.  Kevin rides when there and because of the, ahem, uniqueness of his tee shots he still walks at least 7 miles per round over some incredibly challenging terrain 
Personally, I much prefer walking but even moresi I prefer to get as much Ballyhack golf in as possible and that means a cart. The course is so much fun and has so many holes I adore that it seems not much price to pay to use a cart.

To this day, I still do not quite get number 4, and that's in spite of the fact that I love the green site, and I get such a kick out of watching a draw land short, scoot on and start rolling, hopefully towards the hole.  I don't know the answer but I secretly wish somehow the entire landing area could be redone into something that makes more sense to me.  But don't tell Lester I said that!

On #5, they replaced the higher native grass around the bunkers with sod, so the sand would actually come into play.  On Sunday, we discovered a new pin which added another layer to your monologue.  The back center/right pin absolutely requires you leave your approach to the right and below the hole.  Had not seen that position before and saw some of the most difficult two putts imaginable from 15 feet.

I've become more and more of a fan of #4, especially once you ignore the "safety strip" down the right side.  I like the fact that you may have a downhill lie, but can use the lower ball flight to your advantage by playing the greenside slopes.  Jim Sherma ran up an all-time shot to the back right pin (about 4 feet) with a lower flight on Sunday.

[Kevin Lynch]

I'm not sure if it has been done before, but I was wondering if people would be interested in a hole-by-hole discussion of Ballyhack.  I'd probably want to use that to analyze the design and strategy of the respective holes, and leave the macro-level comments (like the native area maintenance and walkability) to this thread, since Carl seemed to look at the "bigger picture."

There are so many holes that would invite commentary and several diverse opinions, even among people who love the course. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not sure if it has been done before, but I was wondering if people would be interested in a hole-by-hole discussion of Ballyhack.  I'd probably want to use that to analyze the design and strategy of the respective holes, and leave the macro-level comments (like the native area maintenance and walkability) to this thread, since Carl seemed to look at the "bigger picture."

There are so many holes that would invite commentary and several diverse opinions, even among people who love the course. 

Kevin, I am going down to Ballyhack next week for a couple of days.  I'll bring my camera and take a bunch of pictures. I think a discussion would be fun. 

[Carl Rogers]

I'm not sure if it has been done before, but I was wondering if people would be interested in a hole-by-hole discussion of Ballyhack.  I'd probably want to use that to analyze the design and strategy of the respective holes, and leave the macro-level comments (like the native area maintenance and walkability) to this thread, since Carl seemed to look at the "bigger picture."

There are so many holes that would invite commentary and several diverse opinions, even among people who love the course. 

Kevin, I am going down to Ballyhack next week for a couple of days.  I'll bring my camera and take a bunch of pictures. I think a discussion would be fun. 

Yes, a good idea.
Wade, where are you?

[Kevin Lynch]

I'm not sure if it has been done before, but I was wondering if people would be interested in a hole-by-hole discussion of Ballyhack.  I'd probably want to use that to analyze the design and strategy of the respective holes, and leave the macro-level comments (like the native area maintenance and walkability) to this thread, since Carl seemed to look at the "bigger picture."

There are so many holes that would invite commentary and several diverse opinions, even among people who love the course. 

Kevin, I am going down to Ballyhack next week for a couple of days.  I'll bring my camera and take a bunch of pictures. I think a discussion would be fun. 

Thanks, Tommy - I think it would be fun and lively.  One thing's for certain about Ballyhack - it is never boring and brings about passionate discussion.  Your pictures would be helpful.  For all my visits there, I have very few photos of my own.

[Wade Whitehead]

Here, lurking, and going to chime in soon.

Would love a hole-by-hole.  That's a thread I've started - and not posted - at least a dozen times.

WW

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wade, I think between the two of us we can describe how a long hitter and a short knocker like me play the holes.  You and I see different courses.  I can only dream about hitting tee shots where you do. 

[Bill_McBride]

I thought Ballyhack had more unique, one of a kind holes than any course I've ever played, and that's over 600 worldwide.    It's really a tribute to Lester George and the boldness with which he addressed the unique landforms of the spine of Appalachia. 

(Paddle faster, I hear banjo music!). 

[Kevin Lynch]

I thought Ballyhack had more unique, one of a kind holes than any course I've ever played, and that's over 600 worldwide.    It's really a tribute to Lester George and the boldness with which he addressed the unique landforms of the spine of Appalachia. 

(Paddle faster, I hear banjo music!). 

Couldn't agree more.  For me, Ballyhack is the Gold Standard for memorability and variety of holes.  I haven't been to 600 courses, but I've seen enough to know what Lester did was very special. 

[Andy Hughes]

"The bunkers on #5 were mentioned as a question on the quiz. Amazing the number of balls that were found when they were redone"

What was changed to the bunkers on 5?  I hope the hole (the most Irish hole in America!) was not changed much. It's fabulous.  Where do you drive it?  Way left to the flat? To the wide open right?  As near as possible to the bunkers?  Over the bunkers?  What the heck do you do on the second shot?  Actually, where is the pin, where are the slopes, is there a nice slope I can safely use to curl the ball somewhere near the hole, make sure you don't hit just a tad short cause then you're rolling back down the hill but please God don't leave me 40 (or 100!) feet above the hole.  Not sure there is any other hole out there that generates more internal monologue for me than 5.

I think the course is definitely walkable (though some of the walking would be a little annoying such as the walk around from the 11th tee), but I'd rather ride as it makes it easier to get 45-54 holes in. When there, I want to play as many holes as possible.  Kevin rides when there and because of the, ahem, uniqueness of his tee shots he still walks at least 7 miles per round over some incredibly challenging terrain 
Personally, I much prefer walking but even moresi I prefer to get as much Ballyhack golf in as possible and that means a cart. The course is so much fun and has so many holes I adore that it seems not much price to pay to use a cart.

To this day, I still do not quite get number 4, and that's in spite of the fact that I love the green site, and I get such a kick out of watching a draw land short, scoot on and start rolling, hopefully towards the hole.  I don't know the answer but I secretly wish somehow the entire landing area could be redone into something that makes more sense to me.  But don't tell Lester I said that!

On #5, they replaced the higher native grass around the bunkers with sod, so the sand would actually come into play.  On Sunday, we discovered a new pin which added another layer to your monologue.  The back center/right pin absolutely requires you leave your approach to the right and below the hole.  Had not seen that position before and saw some of the most difficult two putts imaginable from 15 feet.

I've become more and more of a fan of #4, especially once you ignore the "safety strip" down the right side.  I like the fact that you may have a downhill lie, but can use the lower ball flight to your advantage by playing the greenside slopes.  Jim Sherma ran up an all-time shot to the back right pin (about 4 feet) with a lower flight on Sunday.

Gotta watch Sherma. The man's got game (I'm trying to suck up a little, now that he's a member  ).  That safety strip is a big part of my issue there. I have never been comfortable with that tee shot or the landing area.  If I was long like Wade it wouldn't matter--just launch it past the 'stuff' to the bottom. Just never really figured out where its supposed to go or how to get there.

Kevin, that seems like an improvement on 5, yes? It was a good look previously but we sure saw balls disappear into the grass near the bunkers.

[Lou_Duran]

I thought Ballyhack had more unique, one of a kind holes than any course I've ever played, and that's over 600 worldwide.    It's really a tribute to Lester George and the boldness with which he addressed the unique landforms of the spine of Appalachia. 

Agree.  #12 has to be among the great par 4s in the world.  Get rid of/thin out some of the natives, and for most non-Melvyns, it is a very entertaining, challenging course.

[Chris DeNigris]

Agree that 12 is fantastic- certainly All-State if not All-America. Wicked tough driving hole (for me) with a equally nasty approach. Love the little bunker the sheep carved out just in front- you can get some really Euro-tough stances in that little devil. The speed slot on the right side is neat if you can hit it (I think I'm like 2 for 20  )   A smidge more fairway width on the left side past the gnarly bunkers would be nice- the penalty for missing just a tad on either side on your drive is a really big number. Great challenge though and I cherish par there if it happens.

Would be good discussion- I think what Carl was looking for- if we dissected a few more holes.

While there are plenty of amazingly great holes there that don't need a lick of improvement- I'll throw out a couple that irritate me a little- and I mean just a little.

All on the front- and all involve some aspect of split fairways.  4s been mentioned already, so I'll bring up 8 and 9.   I really wish the reward approach on right fairway of 8 was more better.  The green's too protected from that angle for a tiny pitch from a tight lie. If there was a safer path to the pin from there it would make it a much more worthwhile risk.

In my mind 9 might go from IMO the weakest hole on the front if that bunker was a true centerline hazard with usable fairway on each side. Unfortunately major surgery likely needed to get enough width there now but I think about  that everytime I play that hole.

PS- Mr. Hughes is really lousy at self-deprecation. Anyone that can almost drive the "Most Irish hole in America"- even if from the up teebox- needs not lament his lack of prodigious length 

[Carl Rogers]

I would like to start a hole by hole.
Commenting from Chris... 9th hole:
-the playing corridor is too narrow, on the 2nd shot. Thus a lot of time going up and down the side hills left and right looking for balls.  I would assume a lot of dirt and rock was moved on 9 to create the hole.  Severe 2 tier green with a severe false fringe front, making a shot to the lower tier highly nerve racking (for me).  Long on the upper tier and your approach putt cannot hold the lower tier down the false front fringe you go for 25 yards (yes I have done this).
8th hole:
-being a shortish hitter, over the years, I have hit several drives down the middle only to kick wildy right behind the hole's name sake, the Sycamore tree leaving no approach shot even though you are a wedge away.
12th hole:
-agreed an unbelievable hole.... but for me, my absolute best drive, off the white tee, leaves me 180 to 190 off a down hill lie requiring a carry over a to be avoided at all costs pot bunker guarding the front of the green.  However, the green is deep, and back pins are playable.  Haven't played a front pin yet.  Any off line tee shot or approach shot results in a non-recoverable next shot after an extended search.  A lay up results in a 50 foot vertical elevation wedge shot.
14th hole ..... needs it own thread
The George Cup has been played in late September & October and I wonder if the green speeds are possible from June through August.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wade and I will be starting a hole by hole thread in the next week or so.

[Tim_Weiman]

Carl,

Excellent opening post. Really good for a reader who hasn't seen the golf course. Nice to see the balance of positive and negatives identified.

[Carl Rogers]

See other thread on the 75 toughest courses. 

Ballyhack not listed.  I think it belongs there.  I guess Roanoke is too far off the beaten track.

[Andy Hughes]

Agree that 12 is fantastic- certainly All-State if not All-America. Wicked tough driving hole (for me) with a equally nasty approach. Love the little bunker the sheep carved out just in front- you can get some really Euro-tough stances in that little devil. The speed slot on the right side is neat if you can hit it (I think I'm like 2 for 20  )   A smidge more fairway width on the left side past the gnarly bunkers would be nice- the penalty for missing just a tad on either side on your drive is a really big number. Great challenge though and I cherish par there if it happens.

Would be good discussion- I think what Carl was looking for- if we dissected a few more holes.

While there are plenty of amazingly great holes there that don't need a lick of improvement- I'll throw out a couple that irritate me a little- and I mean just a little.

All on the front- and all involve some aspect of split fairways.  4s been mentioned already, so I'll bring up 8 and 9.   I really wish the reward approach on right fairway of 8 was more better.  The green's too protected from that angle for a tiny pitch from a tight lie. If there was a safer path to the pin from there it would make it a much more worthwhile risk.

In my mind 9 might go from IMO the weakest hole on the front if that bunker was a true centerline hazard with usable fairway on each side. Unfortunately major surgery likely needed to get enough width there now but I think about  that everytime I play that hole.

PS- Mr. Hughes is really lousy at self-deprecation. Anyone that can almost drive the "Most Irish hole in America"- even if from the up teebox- needs not lament his lack of prodigious length 

Chris, you forgot to mention that we had a little breeze behind us 

On 8, I tend to agree-the drive to the right is a tough shot.  But I have learned that there is a big reward for a long tee shot to the right, if the pin is to the right. There is a small mound just right of the green, next to the entrance, and if you hit your pitch into it it will move left and stop, meaning you never have to go over the bunker. If you go via the left fairway you'll have 150 yards or so and have to hit directly over the bunker to a part of the green that is pretty shallow.  But that route takes 2 awfully good shots.