[Adrian_Stiff]

Hang on there right coaster MacRayBanks suck ups.  Lets go back to the motherland and 1922.  You want a Road Hole?  Visit Weston-super-Mare.  The 15th is a banger Road Hole of some 450 yards with a blind tee shot over a large man-made mound which is used for a few previous hole.  I think Dr Mac recognized the possibility of a Roader and used the previously erected mound (by Dunne?) to great effect.  The hole comes complete with a slightly raised green angled to the rear left, front left bunker and a track to the right backed by OOB.  I have never seen a hole in person or pix which so faithfully replicates the important features of a Roader...including getting the prevailing wind direct correct and the general unattractive nature of the hole.  Its all sums up to tempting people to earn a 4 when for most a 5 is a good score...just like the original.  

Ciao  

Sean and not 1 in 100 people would even notice it is modelled on the road hole green.

[Jim Nugent]

#4 at St Louis CC is a dandy. The front bunker is dead and long is- well,  it's on the road! The course looked outstanding last week . Hats off to Tim Burch the supt. interesting mix of Zoysia tees and bent grass fairways . Why don't we hear more about SLCC ? Much better piece of property than CGC  IMO .

This surprises me, because I was getting ready to post the opposite view. 

I haven't played TOC.  I played SLCC a number of times (even if a long time ago), and caddied there even more.  #4 at SLCC is straight.  No dog leg.  No hotel, or building, or anything else you have to drive over blind.   

The hole is around 410 yards, IIRC: 50 or more yards shorter than #17 at TOC, and even more so from the pro tips. 

The green moves left to right, instead of right to left.  Easier to hold with a fade.  The green, as I recall, had few if any of the fascinating contours I see in photos of TOC. 

Yes, there's a road.  But because of the alignment of the green, it's where the 18th tee at TOC is.  It never came into play when I was there: I never thought of it as a hazard, and never saw a ball on it.  Even if you have to play from the road, which I doubt, you can use the entire length of the green. 

There is no road on the back left of the green, which is where the road is at TOC given the green setup.  So CBM built a long, narrow bunker to imitate the road.  It was not that hard to play out of.  I remember holing a shot from back there once. 

Finally, the Road Hole bunker at SLCC was nowhere near as deep or fearsome as the original.  I don't recall it sucking balls in, either. 

This is going back 45 years, so maybe my memory is not clear on every point.  Also they could have made some changes.  But the basic structure of the hole is pretty well set.  And from what I've seen of the Road Hole, SLCC seemed like a pretty poor 3rd cousin. 

Very interested to hear the counter argument as to why I'm wrong about this. 

[Thomas Dai]

There was a similar thread to this some time ago wherein the Road Hole template at Weston-Super-Mare was mentioned -http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38320.0.html

Another possible example would be the 9th hole at Malvern/The Worcestershire, a MacKenzie design from the late 1920's, which has a 17th-TOC template element to it. Slightly raised green, angled diagonally from right-to-left, multiple ball gathering slopes and a central bunker on the left hand side. Plays at 435 yds. On clay not sand and no hotel or railway sheds to hit over but once-upon-time, before tee planting, the hole could be played by driving onto the next fairway and coming in around the back of the greenside bunker, just like you can do at 17th-TOC. Like TOC-17th still does, it once-upon-a-time had bunkers 50 yds short of the green on the left hand side, long since filled-in though. The hole was the 4th when penned by MacKenzie, now it's the 9th, thanks to the intervention of WWII.
atb

[David Amarnek]

Jim Nugent,
I agree with you re. SLCC #4 (St. Andrews), and I have played both TOC and SLCC many times.
It is indeed 410 yards from the tips, totally straight and I believe is the #2 handicap hole ().
The road behind the green just doesn't come into play and the long bunker extending the length of the left portion of the green is not terribly penal.  Additionally, as you said, the "road hole bunker" is not terribly challenging.
J. Crisham,
The course is in remarkable shape, best I've ever seen it.  The conditions for the most recent Curtis Cup were nearly perfect.  It's still my favorite course in St. Louis!
D.

[Joel_Stewart]

I thought the Road hole at Shoreacres was excellent.  The tee shot was similar to that of TOC minus the obstructed view.  However, now you do actually hit over a road from the back tees.  To get the ball close on the green you must either challenge the OB and ravine down the right side with your tee ball or play a low running right to left shot with your 2nd.  The front bunker is not nearly as menacing as TOC but the "road" bunker (Meaning the bunker to the right of the green which simulates the road) at Shoreacres is really good.  If you hit it over there, it's a really tough shot, even tougher when the greens are firm. 

Have to agree, this hole is a ball buster.  When I played there 2 weeks ago the pin was on the left front which is very difficult since I was going in with a long iron. 

The member said to play the ball to the left of the green and its an easy chip.  Since I don't listen, I tried to hit a high draw and ended up on the back of the green which led to a 3 putt. 

[Rich Goodale]

I've played TOC many times and walked it an equal number of times.  To me, the Road Hole is defined by five features, namely:

1.  "Long" hole (450+ yards)
2.  Completely blind drive
3.  Angled and elevated green guarded by deep bunker on the low side of the angle
4.  Over-clubbing penalized by road in play over the green
5.  Basically flat
6.  Be memorable

Vis a vis replicas:

NGLA--1, 3 and 5 above OK, but no 2, 4 and 6.  Without 2 and 4 and 6 it is just an average long 4/short 5
Old MacDonald--played it 3 times 3 or so years ago and can't remember what hole it is and why it is promoted as a "Road" hole.  Fails all criteria.

The hard bits of replication are 2, 4 and 6.

As for 2, I remember the 1st hole at Cypress, because it has #2, but #6 not in a good way.

As for 4, I've played many holes with #4, but only on the "Road" hole at TOC is the road in play.

As for 6, I've played thousands of holes of golf over hundreds of courses, mostly in the USA and Scotland and hundreds of those holes are memorable, but only 17 at TOC is a "Road" hole.

Rich

PS--the best replicas of McRayBanks holes I have seen in the US are at Midland Hills in Minnesota, but can't remember a Road Hole amongst them.  I could be wrong.  Paging Dan Kelly!

rfg

[Emil Weber]

Rich,

here is a video of Tom explaining his Road hole at OM to support your memory. It certainly looks like it it has as many criteria of the original than other templates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZDoW-WY5Gg

Cheers

[Jonathan Mallard]

Tom,

I thought the 7th at the Legend's Heathland was decent when it first opened.

Now, however, maintenance practices keep it quite soft in front of the green, which removes much of the intent of the hole's design.

[Jim Nugent]

It is indeed 410 yards from the tips, totally straight and I believe is the #2 handicap hole ().

I'm guessing either 18 or 13 as the #1 handicap.  Probably 13: it's so long, requiring so many shots, bogey golfers have lots of potential to get into trouble. 

SLCC was always my favorite in St. Louis too, with Westwood second. 

[Joe Bausch]

Huntington Country Club's 7th green

Love that hole, Ian.

[J_ Crisham]

#4 at St Louis CC is a dandy. The front bunker is dead and long is- well,  it's on the road! The course looked outstanding last week . Hats off to Tim Burch the supt. interesting mix of Zoysia tees and bent grass fairways . Why don't we hear more about SLCC ? Much better piece of property than CGC  IMO .

This surprises me, because I was getting ready to post the opposite view. 

I haven't played TOC.  I played SLCC a number of times (even if a long time ago), and caddied there even more.  #4 at SLCC is straight.  No dog leg.  No hotel, or building, or anything else you have to drive over blind.   

The hole is around 410 yards, IIRC: 50 or more yards shorter than #17 at TOC, and even more so from the pro tips. 

The green moves left to right, instead of right to left.  Easier to hold with a fade.  The green, as I recall, had few if any of the fascinating contours I see in photos of TOC. 

Yes, there's a road.  But because of the alignment of the green, it's where the 18th tee at TOC is.  It never came into play when I was there: I never thought of it as a hazard, and never saw a ball on it.  Even if you have to play from the road, which I doubt, you can use the entire length of the green. 

There is no road on the back left of the green, which is where the road is at TOC given the green setup.  So CBM built a long, narrow bunker to imitate the road.  It was not that hard to play out of.  I remember holing a shot from back there once. 

Finally, the Road Hole bunker at SLCC was nowhere near as deep or fearsome as the original.  I don't recall it sucking balls in, either. 

This is going back 45 years, so maybe my memory is not clear on every point.  Also they could have made some changes.  But the basic structure of the hole is pretty well set.  And from what I've seen of the Road Hole, SLCC seemed like a pretty poor 3rd cousin. 

Very interested to hear the counter argument as to why I'm wrong about this. 

Jim and David,     I agree with the fact that #4 is straight. At 410 yds, I believe it plays closer to about 430 as the second shot is all uphill- the tee shot doesn't run out very well as it hits into the upslope. As far as the front bunker is concerned, I was in it last Friday. My approach hit the front right portion of the green and the false front allowed it to trickle back into the bunker which in my estimation is about 5 feet deep. The pin was all the way back right. My playing partner hit his approach off the back and was just shy of the road which is about 25 feet off the back edge of the green-he was dead back there. You are correct , the road shouldn't come into play. I found this to be a very tough hole- not as hard as 13 but much harder than 18 which was driver, 7 iron. 13 may be the hardest hole on the course given the 600 yds that slopes hard to the right and a nasty green- arguably the most severe test on the course. At 6500 yds , I felt it played closer to 6900 imo. Tim Burch the suprt has the course in terrific condition. If they took out another 300- 400 trees the vistas would be outstanding.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim and David,     I agree with the fact that #4 is straight. At 410 yds, I believe it plays closer to about 430 as the second shot is all uphill- the tee shot doesn't run out very well as it hits into the upslope. As far as the front bunker is concerned, I was in it last Friday. My approach hit the front right portion of the green and the false front allowed it to trickle back into the bunker which in my estimation is about 5 feet deep. The pin was all the way back right. My playing partner hit his approach off the back and was just shy of the road which is about 25 feet off the back edge of the green-he was dead back there. You are correct , the road shouldn't come into play. I found this to be a very tough hole- not as hard as 13 but much harder than 18 which was driver, 7 iron. 13 may be the hardest hole on the course given the 600 yds that slopes hard to the right and a nasty green- arguably the most severe test on the course. At 6500 yds , I felt it played closer to 6900 imo. Tim Burch the suprt has the course in terrific condition. If they took out another 300- 400 trees the vistas would be outstanding.
[/quote]

Good to hear about the front bunker.  In the late 1960s it was not 5 feet deep, and was not such a big deal. 

Today's long-ball hitters, I would think, might have a wedge into the green.  Does that sound about right? 

Where do you think they should take down more trees?  Up around the 8 tee/10 green/11 tee area? 

[J_ Crisham]

Jim,   These young kids hit wedge on every par 4 nowadays- case in point this Summer we hosted the Western Am at Beverly. Our "strong "par 4's #5,8, 15,and 16 were all wedge or 9 iron seconds. In fact #13 which is 385 yds slightly uphill was driven by a kid. I asked him after his round about it and he shrugged his shoulders and said it was downwind. Everyone was going after #14 at 330 yds. Watched a kid hit a 285 yard 4iron into #7- it was a club or two downwind. As far as SLCC, I would remove most of the  trees on the left of #2, left side of #4, #8 the entire right side(30 or 40 trees),  Left side of 9, 20 or so trees between 10 and 11, #13 a bunch more on the right side, a few on the left side of 17. Don't get me wrong - this is one hell of a course in great shape but the Cape hole #8 could be world class if they blow all the right side trees out. I also would make #7 a skyline green and clear the trees out behind it  and plant fescue to protect from guys trying to blow drives up in that area coming back on #10. I see no reason why SLCC isn't spoken of in the same conversation with Shoreacres and Yeamans IMO- it's very very good.

[Michael Essig]

The one aspect of the Road Hole that no one has mentioned is the rise/slope on the front portion of the green.  I have not played any of the courses mentioned - Piping Rock, etc. - except Old MacDonald, but none of them appear from the pictures to have incorporated this green feature.  I think this feature is an important aspect of the Road Hole because of how it affects your recovery shots if you are chipping or pitching the ball from short and right of the green.  Because the bail-out strategy of the hole is to lay-up short and right, the ridge on the green makes any recovery from the safe layup much, much more difficult whether you are chipping, pitching or putting.  Also, it makes the "easy" hole placement - the front one-third of the green - a very small target. 

[Phil McDade]

I think Blue Mound G&CC has a very good version of the Road Hole; the following is excerpted from my thread of the course from a few years ago:

#5 (par 5, 497/483 – The Road Hole)
A faithful rendition of the 17th at The Old Course in St. Andrews; a series of bunkers, recently restored, represent the old railroad shacks at TOC. (It plays as a par 5, albeit shorter than the recently lengthened par 4 17th at TOC for this year’s Open Championship, and similar in length to the par 5 Road Hole at the National Golf Links of America.)



A look at one of the fairway bunkers; the golfer who fails to clear these will have a difficult time reaching the green in two on this short par 5.


A look at the green, another terrific Raynor effort. The road bunker guards the left entrance of the green, which tilts noticeably from left to right and back to front. Similar to the original Road Hole, the bolder drive to the right off the tee, successfully executed, rewards the golfer with an easier shot into this very difficult green. The safe tee shot left of the fairway bunkers makes the approach shot more difficult, particularly to any pin middle-left.


Here’s a good look at the tilt of the 5th green.


The large and narrow bunker that sits behind the 5th green, emblematic of the road behind TOC’s 17th. The 5th at Blue Mound is a terrific version of the original hole.

[Steve Salmen]

The Road Hole and the templates are all fine and well. However, with respect to Rich Goodale's observation of characteristics, I have one feature I'd like to add.  I feel somewhat cheated playing a Road Hole if the hole location is right of the Road Bunker.  I think that is the defining characteristic of the hole.

I have played the Road hole 4 times and 3 of the four times the hole was cut right of the bunker.  Not only does this make the approach much easier, it makes getting up and down from a bailed right shot easier.  Also, the width and lack of depth has hardly been mentioned.  Even if the hole is cut left and the player hits a nice approach right of the bunker, the player can be looking at anywhere from 30-80 ft for their first putt.

Though the drive is important, I think the hole is really defined by the approach and green surrounds.

[Jeff Bergeron]

The Road Hole replica at North Shore appears the best to me, by far. The second shot is the key to the RH. You don't need railway sheds to replicate that. Mind you, I am basing this on photos. Haven"t played North Shore, but I think I should.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Some have advocated that the 2nd shot is what is so important to the template.  I argue that the amount of risk taken on the tee shot is what allows for a more advantageous 2nd shot.  The blind part of the tee shot makes finding the right side of the fairway much more difficult.  To this end, Shoreacres does to some extent provide this feature. 


The best that I have played is Piping Rock which I have been fortunate to have played many times.  This is shot from the old back tee, because I forgot to bring my camera to the championship tee, which is a good 30 yards to the left of the championship tee.  In the past 20 years, the club has built 2 new tees that are near the back of the driving range making the dogleg significantly greater and closer to TOC.

And the green

[Bill Brightly]

Charles Banks represented the hotel with the grass mound you see on the left. Altough Banks drew it as a bunker (but never got the chance to build it) when we restored the hole we did not make it a sand hazard. It only requires a shot 190 in the air to carry. (Although I have been on the mound a few more times than I would like to admit. My buddies have started calling that "checking into the hotel..." ) No, it is not a hotel, but is does a nice job of partially obscuring the landing area; you can't see where the fairway ends and the rough starts. So I think it is a nice nod to TOC by Charlie.



And the Road a TOC is represented by a 60 yard long bunker to the right of the green. I don't have a great photo, but it is right of this kickmound (and starts well short of it.

[Alex Lagowitz]

The 12th at ECCC may be one of the most interesting road hole templates.  It requires a tee shot over a ravine to a hogsback fairway.  If you hit a big drive down the right side you can carry the hogsback and been in the flat part of the fairway.  The green is also very interesting with the back left portion having the maiden green humps.  It does not have the truest road hole green, but it is interesting and unique.

[Sean_A]

I've played TOC many times and walked it an equal number of times.  To me, the Road Hole is defined by five features, namely:

1.  "Long" hole (450+ yards)
2.  Completely blind drive
3.  Angled and elevated green guarded by deep bunker on the low side of the angle
4.  Over-clubbing penalized by road in play over the green
5.  Basically flat
6.  Be memorable

Vis a vis replicas:

NGLA--1, 3 and 5 above OK, but no 2, 4 and 6.  Without 2 and 4 and 6 it is just an average long 4/short 5
Old MacDonald--played it 3 times 3 or so years ago and can't remember what hole it is and why it is promoted as a "Road" hole.  Fails all criteria.

The hard bits of replication are 2, 4 and 6.

As for 2, I remember the 1st hole at Cypress, because it has #2, but #6 not in a good way.

As for 4, I've played many holes with #4, but only on the "Road" hole at TOC is the road in play.

As for 6, I've played thousands of holes of golf over hundreds of courses, mostly in the USA and Scotland and hundreds of those holes are memorable, but only 17 at TOC is a "Road" hole.

Rich

PS--the best replicas of McRayBanks holes I have seen in the US are at Midland Hills in Minnesota, but can't remember a Road Hole amongst them.  I could be wrong.  Paging Dan Kelly!

rfg

rfg

How bout a 7th criteria to include a double dogleg?  For many, the best way to play the hole is a par 5...as a double dogleg.  This is why its crazy that there should be rough 25, 50 or 100 yards short-right of the green reducing the effectiveness of the road for the lay-up. 

While W-s-M's version has all the bits, but it isn't particularly memorable unless one knows the story...and as Adrian has rightly pointed out, very few people do or care.  So I would argue that being memorable is quite important if one is going to copy a famous hole.

I am glad to see folks haven't mentioned Yeamans Hall's Road Hole.  I still look back at pix and try to figure out why on earth its called Road.

Ciao

[Jim Nugent]

Let me mention one other difference between the road holes at TOC and SLCC.   The wind.  In St. Louis, wind doesn't affect play that much.  My impression is that at TOC, it can affect play a whole lot. 

More generally, that is one element links courses have in abundance, that courses like SLCC don't see much of.  Since many of the holes at SLCC are templates, drawn from famous links courses, I wonder if even a course as wonderful as SLCC can measure up to the courses it is based on?  i.e. can a course built on links templates play up to speed, when it frequently is missing that element so critical to links play? 

[Adrian_Stiff]

The more I think about the 15th at WSM the more I start to think it is more like the road hole rather than just the green because of aspects that are not just the green. Sean's point about a double dogleg is great point and one I had not really thought of before actually quite near the principle easy 5 hard 4. WSM you need to take the tee shot very close to the trees/OOB on the right to get that best line in to the green that is 17th TOC. Also plenty of bail out left at wSM 15 but no shot to the green..once more 17th TOC.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

For sure, W-s-M's Road Hole is about as close as you can get to the original without the hotel and setting...which of course goes a long way toward memorability.

Ciao  

[J_ Crisham]

Let me mention one other difference between the road holes at TOC and SLCC.   The wind.  In St. Louis, wind doesn't affect play that much.  My impression is that at TOC, it can affect play a whole lot. 

More generally, that is one element links courses have in abundance, that courses like SLCC don't see much of.  Since many of the holes at SLCC are templates, drawn from famous links courses, I wonder if even a course as wonderful as SLCC can measure up to the courses it is based on?  i.e. can a course built on links templates play up to speed, when it frequently is missing that element so critical to links play? 

Jim,   I agree regarding wind- I wonder if that improves somewhat if they took 300 trees out at SLCC? The North Sea is a bit windier than the Mississippi river to begin with.

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