May we resurrect a discussion about "top shot" or "fore" bunkers?

[Greg Smith]

I suppose top shot bunkers would be defined as those close enough to the tee to be (at least potentially) carried by all golfers likely to play that course or play from that particular tee. 

It seems everyone thinks Donald Ross was the Golden Age architect most famous for top shot bunkers.  These might also have been called "fore" bunkers in other eras.  About a decade ago there was a thread here on GCA with a few interesting comments on the subject.  For that thread search "topshot bunker".   I also see a few very nice top shot bunkers shown on the St. Germain course profile.

There are distinct pros and cons to such bunkers.   On the "pro" side:

** Can a short carry bunker give the weaker golfer a chance to have the thrill of successfully driving over a fierce-looking hazard?
** Can the bunker and its surrounds provide a useful visual deception that adds complexity to strategic decisions?
** Can the bunker help the weaker golfer to learn strategic thinking he might otherwise never experience?  For instance, on the course where I teach my kids to play there is one excellent central bunker about 75 yards off the yellow tee on the 13th fairway.  I like to take my kids to that tee when playing the hole, because that distance gives them the perfect chance to experience a "Principal's Nose" kind of shot decision.  Without the bunker they'd just bunt it down the fairway.

On the "con" side:

**  Do top shot bunkers tend to penalize those least able to recover?
**  Are these "frivolous" bunkers too much of a drain on construction and maintenance budgets?

What makes a "good" top shot bunker?  I think it must:

**  Always offer a way around the bunker on the short grass, for those who are REALLY weak hitters.
**  Always look somewhat intimidating, in order to maximize the fun of carrying it.
**  Be easier to recover from than it initially looked.

Additionally, if the bunker is a true cross bunker blocking off the whole fairway, it better be CLOSE to the tee so everyone at least has a chance to clear it.

I know there will be two camps on this issue -- love em or hate em.  I tend to love em (especially on classic courses), but I can see the other side's point.

If anyone has some pictures of really lovely top shot bunker examples, please show us.

[Josh Stevens]

how close to the tee would a bunker need to be to be considered a fore bunker?  150m, 100m, 50m??

I play from time to time with guys who struggle to carry the ball 75m.  I am not sure we want to be penalising them and I suspect they are too old to want to be risking too many thrills lest their hearts give out

[Chris DeToro]

My course is a Donald Ross that features a couple prominent fore bunkers and they both happen to be on 2 of the longest holes out there (a 460 yard par 4 from the regular men's tee and a 530 yard par 5 which tends to play longer back into the wind).  Because of the length of the holes and how much longer the hole would play were one to hit it in there, I can't imagine it to be much fun

I'll try to get some pictures this weekend

[Pete Lavallee]

If you have never played golf course with no fairway irrigation, quite common in Ross's day, you probably can't appreciate how far a topped shot could run out! Just imagine the low marker's horror when his opponent is only 20 or so yards behind him after a topped or extremely low running tee shot. Granted they have lost a lot of their strategic value with the universal application of irrigation systems to fairways, but I still like them for the reasons you listed above.

[Paul Gray]

I have a lot of time for the top shot bunker.

I occasionally play with my dad who is inevitably getting on a bit and has never been much of a player. One particular course we often play in the summer features a bunker 150 yards or so from the tee. You can go around it if you're very accurate but clearly the shot is to go over it. Anyway, the point is that last summer, after faithfully declaring, yet again, that he could never get over it, my dad duly carried it. It produced a sense of achievement the high handicapper doesn't experience too often.

Similarly, talking to a friend recently, another guy who doesn't play a great deal, he was telling me about another course he likes where apparently you have to carry a huge bomb crater from the tee. I was, for a few moments, beginning to wonder if we were talking about the same course until I realised that he was absolutely correct. It had never occurred to me that what I remembered as a nondescript ditch in front of the tee was actually a fearsome hazard for some, something to be proud to fly. And if such things provide such excitement, which they so clearly do, how can they be anything but good for the game? 

[RJ_Daley]

While I haven't gone back in the threads to get a link, it has been observed that another reason for the top shot bunkers appearing on some courses rather regularly was to obtain soil material to build up the tees. 

I tend to think another strategic/psychological aspect to the top shot bunker is to place one on a tempting short par 4 where the golfer is tempted to over exert themselves with a greedy and uncontrolled swing, risking the top shot miss and thus a bit of a penalty for the greed and lack of discipline. 

Also, I get the feel-good aspect of giving the weaker player a boost in morale that they carried it. 

I tend to like them.
But there is also the forced carry and the consideration of what distance to force as a carry, and if it is deceptively shorter forced carry than it appears.  I think you see that all over the sand hill courses.  The same distance consideratons of placement of a top shot bunker and the extent of mere central hazard or mainly crossing the entire near FW are interesting design questions.  I like those sort of questions being asked on golf courses. 

[Sean_A]

I am a broken record. In moderation and with plenty of room to avoid them, they are fine.  I am not really a fan of this sort of feature, but good architecture sometimes isn't about what is liked.  It takes all sorts of features to make up the architectural palette - can't like them all.

Ciao 

[Bill Brightly]

Here is a pretty funny top shot bunker story. I was in St. Andrews with 4 couples. One of the guys and I walked The Old Course on a Sunday afternoon. As we walked off the 12th tee, we were stunned to see a hidden bunker about 30 yards in front of the tee. We commented that this seemed odd, NO ONE would ever hit a tee shot in there... (Is this bunker in play for Hole 8?)

So I got to play TOC two days later with one of the other guys in our group. (We got on by waiting for the Dark Times.) He had not seen the course before this so when we came to 12 I tried my best to describle the hidden bunkers out there in the landing area.  He smoked a low topper that would normally run about 200 yards. Except the ball went 30 yards, then disappeared. My buddy said "where did that go?" and I was laughing so hard that it took me a minute to say "sorry, I forgot to tell you about the top shot bunker." He was soooo pissed. I guess some guys just don't have a sense of humor!

[RJ_Daley]

I'd look at this as also being able to say that a bunker similarly placed on a Par 5. which acts as a topped shot bunker for the second shot is a valid design idea.  Placing a prominent bunker just past the general LZ of the tee (particularly if the general slope at the LZ is slightly or subtly down hill) around 340-360 off the tee, where a player hitting FW metal or even aggressively hitting driver off the deck risks the topped shot, with a clear lay-up option available is a good risk reward factor to keep them thinking.  And, I think it is most effective where the notion of going for it in 2 is in the realm on a 480-510 yard par 5 where the aggressive second shot is tempted more so than the really long par 5s where layupp is out for all but the true slammers.

[Tom_Doak]

Here is a pretty funny top shot bunker story. I was in St. Andrews with 4 couples. One of the guys and I walked The Old Course on a Sunday afternoon. As we walked off the 12th tee, we were stunned to see a hidden bunker about 30 yards in front of the tee. We commented that this seemed odd, NO ONE would ever hit a tee shot in there... (Is this bunker in play for Hole 8?)

Bill:

That bunker is there for the course played in reverse.  However, at least one person I caddied for managed to hit into it during my two months in St. Andrews.

To get back to the original post, the one time I can remember placing a bunker for a topped shot was on the 17th hole at The Legends, a 220-yard par-3, where I thought some people might overswing and there was a bunker 50 yards off the tee [which doubled for landscape effect]. 

Since then, I have rarely thought of placing a bunker directly for a "topped shot", but we certainly sometimes place bunkers 125 yards to 200 yards off the tee for the interest of shorter hitters, especially since I tend to build fewer forward tees than most modern architects.  To me, it is important to have such features to keep golfers guessing at the correct distance ... if everything is set at a predictable distance from the tee, the course is likely boring for the people who don't hit it that far.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, has it ever been in your intended design features, or perhaps supporting one of you crew's idea, to cant the tee box downslope slightly at about 2%, with some sort of deceptive terrain out in the landing area to give the view an opposite reality from perception, inorder to place the potential topped shot into play- or force the smart or better player who realizes such to be mindful and adjust the swing accordingly with how to set up to the ball to avoid the topped shot?  Of course this can be on long par tees as well.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, has it ever been in your intended design features, or perhaps supporting one of you crew's idea, to cant the tee box downslope slightly at about 2%, with some sort of deceptive terrain out in the landing area to give the view an opposite reality from perception, inorder to place the potential topped shot into play- or force the smart or better player who realizes such to be mindful and adjust the swing accordingly with how to set up to the ball to avoid the topped shot?  Of course this can be on long par tees as well.

Occasionally we have a tee that is canted downhill, because there is no other good way to tilt it, but I try to avoid this if I notice it being done because I am prone to the occasional topped shot myself and I just hate that!

The back tee on #6 at Crystal Downs has a tough tilt to the front [probably more than 2%] and it is a very awkward shot under the circumstances.

[Norbert P]

   In the design of Silvies Valley, a reversible course, we have some bunkers directly in front of some free-form tees.   The bunkers obviously will be hazards intended for one direction but the foozle shot will be punished and will make for one heck of a challenge for a sand save.
 Like Dick mentioned, the soil reallocation from the bunker spoils to tee construction makes it economical in both time and money.

  When we were out in Mid Pines, NC a couple of years ago, Kyle asked me about the short fairway bunker on #7.  I said "Nobody will hit it in there. Purely a visual bunker."  I thought it should be filled in and moved up the fairway to make it more in play for today's game. He decided to leave it there but restyled to Ross' course motif, artistically accomplished by Mr. Jaeger Kovich.   After completion playing a round, of course I ate my works and line drived it into the bunker.  So, apparently I haven't attained "today's game".