News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #300 on: October 21, 2014, 08:39:50 PM »
Won't claim I have read every post in this thread, but can't help thinking it might have been better to delay this thread until the party doing the authenticating could be identified and/or published their final report.

For now at least, it seems like this has only undermined the credibility of the documents in question.

Will be interesting how this plays out from here.
Tim Weiman

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #301 on: October 21, 2014, 08:48:40 PM »
Let Phil get his arms around these matters and get back to us.  If he learns that he's been had, he'll tell us.

Tomorrow it will be three months since I first informed Phil that substantial portions of Ian's story were false.  Since then they recanted on the first story, came up with a new, even more problematic story, and came here twice more to try and convince us to accept it, all the while refusing to answer even the most basic questions. Just how long do you suppose it ought to take Phil "to get his arms around" these matters? From my perspective the time for that was when it was proven that AWT wasn't even in Scotland when Ian claimed the diaries said he was.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #302 on: October 21, 2014, 08:58:07 PM »
David,

Once you called them forgers they owed you nothing. Your time clock is immaterial. Internet bullies have been arrested for less than what you have done on this thread.

I have a question. Has anyone ever met Ian?  From the "proof" I have seen here I doubt that he exists. This is beginning to look like an elaborate ruse. I'm just not sure who is the butt of the joke.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #303 on: October 21, 2014, 09:03:52 PM »
Won't claim I have read every post in this thread, but can't help thinking it might have been better to delay this thread until the party doing the authenticating could be identified and/or published their final report.

For now at least, it seems like this has only undermined the credibility of the documents in question.

Will be interesting how this plays out from here.

I said this a LONG time ago. 

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #304 on: October 22, 2014, 10:22:29 AM »
I have a question. Has anyone ever met Ian?  From the "proof" I have seen here I doubt that he exists. This is beginning to look like an elaborate ruse. I'm just not sure who is the butt of the joke.
If this is a ruse then it appears that someone has been working on it for several years as IST has Twitter accounts, etc that go back that far.  And he also shows up on some golf club web sites, like Hopkinton and appears to have been mentioned in articles in newspapers and magazines.  If this is a ruse then I commend the person who invented IST as they have spent a lot of time and effort doing this.

But IST does seem prone to more than exaggeration.  On LinkedIn IST lists the University of Wiltshire as his Educational Institution - just like on his web site.  51 other people show up for that institution at LinkedIn and when you click through to look at their profiles it usually says something like Wilthsire College/Open University.  Does that sound like the sort of institution that has a PhD program?  

Slightly exaggerating your background is maybe not a great sin, but claiming that you have a PhD, which normally means 8+ years at University, when your actual education was at Technical Colleges is more than an exaggeration.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #305 on: October 22, 2014, 10:32:38 AM »
I think we need to calm down a fraction. Ian exists  :)  I've never met him in the flesh, but have spoken to him on the phone and communicated with him via various electronic channels. He's very Welsh and likes to go on a bit.....
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #306 on: October 22, 2014, 10:40:19 AM »
I think we need to calm down a fraction. Ian exists  :)  I've never met him in the flesh, but have spoken to him on the phone and communicated with him via various electronic channels. He's very Welsh and likes to go on a bit.....
I don't think anyone really thought otherwise.  This was John K, in mid-rant, throwing an absurdity out there.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #307 on: October 22, 2014, 11:32:49 AM »
The notion that Phil is working on a Fight Club like fictional book centered around a golf historian with two personalities is no more far fetched than other theories I have read here.  The made up call to "Ian's" sister was genius.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #308 on: October 22, 2014, 11:34:08 AM »
There appears to be a little confusion about the educational bodies in some of the posts above.  In the UK a College and a University are not synonyms for each other.   Some of the top Universities have College in their name e.g. UCD, Kings College London, and Oxford and Cambridge Universities have a no of Colleges that make up the University.  The term College can also refer to a School with pupils aged upto 18 or an institute of further education like Wiltshire College (which has been proven existed after he emigrated). Wiltshire College and The Open University are two distinct entities.  The Open University is about distance learning and degrees are nearly always awarded to people who have finished their ‘formal’ or full time education.

To make it perfectly clear according to eh information on his Golf website he almost certainly did not have the Qualification to enter a post graduate course and the University he claimed he completed his Doctorate at, has never existed.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #309 on: October 22, 2014, 11:35:37 AM »
The notion that Phil is working on a Fight Club like fictional book centered around a golf historian with two personalities is no more far fetched than other theories I have read here.  The made up call to "Ian's" sister was genius.

I was wondering when someone would point out that evidence of the phone call was from Ian Scott Taylor.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 11:38:12 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #310 on: October 22, 2014, 11:50:25 AM »
The term College can also refer to a School with pupils aged upto 18 or an institute of further education like Wiltshire College (which has been proven existed after he emigrated). Wiltshire College and The Open University are two distinct entities.  The Open University is about distance learning and degrees are nearly always awarded to people who have finished their ‘formal’ or full time education.
Here is what Wikipedia says about Wiltshire College:  Wiltshire College is a tertiary college of education founded in 2002 by the merger of Chippenham Technical College, Lackham College and Trowbridge College.Consolidation was completed with the merger of Salisbury College, which commenced in January 2008.

My mention of Open University is just to show that pretty much no one, other than IST, uses the term University of Wiltshire and the only "hits" to that on LinkedIn, were when two separate institutions were referred to - Wiltshire College and a University - and often it was Open University.

It looks more like he has a diploma in Draftsmanship, or whatever that was called at these schools as that seemed to be his early job, at least in the GCA business.

Brandon Urban

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #311 on: October 22, 2014, 05:46:32 PM »
I think we need to calm down a fraction. Ian exists  :)  I've never met him in the flesh, but have spoken to him on the phone and communicated with him via various electronic channels. He's very Welsh and likes to go on a bit.....
Manti Te'o said something very similar...
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #312 on: October 22, 2014, 06:03:40 PM »
I'm just waiting for someone to call Ian's mother in order to find out whether she's been called before.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #313 on: October 22, 2014, 08:54:24 PM »
Here's his artists web page which explains the PhD... And has a picture.

http://ian-scotttaylor.artistwebsites.com


Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #314 on: October 22, 2014, 09:12:21 PM »
And on that page it says "Ian is a native welsh man, born in North Wales, his home was Holyhead on the coast of Anglesey. Ian now lives in
lives in Maryland in the United States. Growing up with the Ferries and Trains, Ian developed his art drawing both. He Studied at Swansea Metropolitan University as a Technical Illustrator. Ian later went on to a Ph.D in Engineering Design"

The Swansea Metropolitan University does exist although it appears to now be called University of Wales Trinity St. David or UWTSD but it didn't achieve University status until 2008.  It appears that one of the schools that merged to become this institute was the West Glamorgan Institute of Higher Education which was established in 1976.

Quote
In 1976, the three institutions came together to form the West Glamorgan Institute of Higher Education, which eventually became Swansea Institute of Higher Education. In 2008, the Privy Council gave permission for the institution to be renamed Swansea Metropolitan University and, several years later, the institution merged with the Lampeter and Carmarthen campuses to create the new UWTSD.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #315 on: October 22, 2014, 09:16:59 PM »
Here's his artists web page which explains the PhD... And has a picture.

http://ian-scotttaylor.artistwebsites.com



I will be buying me some IST. The cards at $6 a piece are a steal.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #316 on: October 22, 2014, 09:17:24 PM »
The Story of Lt. David Scott-Taylor and the Queen

According to Ian and Phil, 1901 was a big year for Ian’s grandfather, and not just because of the May 11th Scores Grand Hotel dinner with three two golf luminaries. Five months earlier, Dr. David Scott-Taylor had been a young officer, a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy, and was serving as ship’s surgeon on naval vessel assigned to protect 81 year old Queen Victoria, who was “vacationing” on the Isle of Wight.  But all was not well with the Queen. 

         By early January she was feeling weak and unwell and growing increasingly drowsy, dazed and confused with each passing day. . . . For those serving her at Osborne House, the Queen’s illness was more than a national crisis. Near the end they realized that a doctor was needed and quickly. At the time her personal physicians were back in London which created a dilemma, for only a physician with a high standing could examine the Queen and there were none on the island.
         A call went out for a physician from one of the ships to be sent to Osborne House immediately, for a physician in the Royal Navy automatically had the standing to examine the Queen. And so, without being told why or who he was going to see, Lt. David Scott-Taylor was shuttled over and immediately shown to the Queen’s chambers. He would attend the Queen while awaiting the arrival of her physician’s. The Queen quietly died in her sleep on January 22nd.


This, according to Phil and Ian, was a major turning point in Ian’s grandfather’s life and a key event in their story, for his brush with real Royalty had led to his introduction to high society and golf royalty, thus setting the stage for all that followed.

         It was because of his support of the actions of the court officials and the Queen’s personal physicians that this formerly unknown naval surgeon gained the regards of many at the highest levels of the government and his reputation as both an officer and a gentleman rose dramatically over-night. Among the privileges to come the way of this young man who passionately loved golf was acceptance into the R&A as an unofficial member where he was welcomed at the club and its luncheons, dinners and events.

I know what you are thinking . . . acceptance into the R&A as an unofficial member? A remarkable claim in and of itself.  But the even more remarkable claim is that Lieutenant David Scott-Taylor had been rushed to the care of the dying Queen, because her “personal physicians were back in London.” Like most of the Ian’s stories about his grandfather, this one just doesn’t check out. I say this after conducting quite a bit of research into the vast amounts of detailed information (from newspaper accounts, memoirs, diaries, histories, etc.) describing the last days of the Queen.  I’ve found no mention anywhere of a young naval officer having been rushed to the aid of the Queen.  More than that, the detailed descriptions of Queen Victoria’s life and death make the story impossible for me to believe.

But don’t take my word for it.  Check it out for yourselves. Good starting points are two relatively recent books which painstakingly detail the last days of the Queen. One is titled, The Last Days of Glory: The Death of Queen Victoria (2001) by Tony Rennell, the other is Ask Sir James (1989) by Michaela Reid.  Both books provide an extraordinarily detailed look at the Queen’s medical care at Osborne House and before, read them and you will realize that Ian’s story cannot possibly be accurate. The sources are the books range from newspaper accounts, to contemporaneous letters, to memoirs written by those who were there, to official court bulletins, to post mortem medical reports, but the most significant sources for our purposes are the detailed diaries of Sir James Reid himself.  Reid was not only the Queen’s primary physician, he was a close advisor, and he was with her constantly near the end.
 
The books and related material leave no doubt; there was never a time at Osborne when the Queen was without access to her own doctors.  Like Windsor Castle, Osborne House had its own medical staff.  And the Queen and Royal Family also had an extensive “Medical Household” consisting of Physicians-In-Ordinary, Physicians Extraordinary, Surgeons-In-Ordinary, Surgeons Extraordinary, and two levels of Apothecaries (who were general practitioners) at their beck and call.  (The structure, distinctions, and responsibilities are more fully explained in the books referenced above.) There were multiple of each in both England and Scotland “so in an emergency there would be at least one available” and the Queen would never be without medical care.

The person most directly involved in taking care of the Queen was Sir James Reid, Queen Victoria’s senior Physician-In-Ordinary, Head of the Royal Medical Household, and her Resident Medical Attendant.  He had no other medical practice. Wherever Queen Victoria went, so went Sir James Reid.  He traveled with her everywhere, and he had quarters in each of her Royal residences, including Osborne House, and tended to her multiple times a day no matter where they were. Incredibly, when Reid was on duty he was not even allowed to sleep anywhere but the current Royal residence of  the Queen.  He was a prominent doctor and had been knighted, but he nonetheless had a curfew. He even had to seek permission to dine away from the current Royal residence.   And when he was on vacation, one of the other Physicians-In-Ordinary was there in his stead, although Reid was often consulted and called back if the Queen so desired.

To give an idea of what the Queen expected of him, here is a directive she had written  to him in 1898 (after he had already served her for close to two decades) about his continuing responsibilities after his pending marriage to one of the Queen’s Ladies in Waiting.
 
I think it's absolutely necessary that Sir J. Reid and Miss Baring should know exactly what their position will be when they are married. Sir James knows that considering my age, I cannot well allow him to leave his present post. This will entail that he must continue living in the House wherever we are, excepting [preapproved vacations.] He must always, as now, come round after breakfast to see what I should want, and then back before lunch. He must also in the afternoon, before he goes out, do the same. Of course as a date shorten and in the winter, he would go out earlier and come back earlier. Sir James should always ask if he wishes to go out for longer, or to dine out, returning by 11 or 11:30. His wife should not come to his room here, nor to the Corredor, we're some of the Royal children live. At Windsor she might occasionally come to his room but this must not interfere with his other duties. It is absolutely necessary that they should be fully aware of these conditions so that they cannot complain afterwards.

And this was when she was relatively healthy.  Over the next few years, her health would decline, an her need for care would grow.  Given Queen Victoria’s age, her many health issues, and her hypochondriac-like tendencies, the Queen was almost always in need of medical advice and care.  She had been battling various medical ailments even before the annual move to Osborne House, so she was most certainly never without medical care during her time there.  By the time they arrived at Osborne House in the winter on December 18, 1900, she was in need of near constant care. "From [her arrival at Osborne] onwards, until her death, the Queen did did not go down into the dining room for her me meals but had her food taken to her room and was to all intents and purposes an invalid."  This was 81 year old Queen Victoria, and her health was slipping even before she arrived at Osborne. The idea that she would be on an island without immediate access to medical care is preposterous.  

While the Queen's staff provided to her other needs, Sir James Reid and her other doctors provided her with medical care.  In addition to Reid and the medical staff at Osborne House, another of her physicians-in-ordinary, Sir Francis Laking arrived on January 5th so that Reid could get some rest for a week.  But this did not mean Reid headed back to London.  It only meant that Reid would, theoretically, be able to spend a bit more time with his wife in a cottage she had rented near Osborne while he was serving there. The reality was that Reid never really got a rest, as the Queen insisted on seeing him,  and Dr. Laking wasted too much of his time.   According to his Reid’s wife he only managed to eat two meals at the cottage during this entire week, and the rest of the time was spent at Osborne House.  (The Queen was quite particular about who cared for her right up to the end, and the idea that she would allow an unknown Naval surgeon to care for her makes no sense.)

As the Queen's condition worsened [in addition to Sir James Reid, Sir Francis Laking, and Dr. Hoffmeister (Queen Victoria’s Surgeon Apothecary at Osborne House0]  other of her doctors traveled to Osborne House aid her, including Sir William Jenner, who had been her primary physician-in-ordinary prior to Reid. But Sir James Reid was the physician most directly involved, and he is the one who provided the best record of the Queen’s medical care, and the most convincing evidence that Ian’s story is inaccurate. From Ask Sir James:

“During the period of Queen Victoria’s final illness and death Reid wrote a minutely detailed account of all that occurred.  And he was with the Queen constantly, hour by hour, day and night, tending to her every need, he, more than anyone else, was in a position to record accurately the events which took place.”

The diary transcripts from the last week of the Queen's life are included in the book, as are many other entries and references, and there is no reference to a young naval surgeon having been called in, and really no purpose for such a call to have been made.  (Unlike the supposed David Scott-Taylor Diary entries, the information in Sir James Reid's diaries can be confirmed by numerous independent sources.)

I could go on, but you get the picture.  Queen Victoria was constantly surrounded by her own medical staff up to the moment of her death, and after.  Her doctors were there.  There was no need or call for a young Naval surgeon to care for her. 

Once again, Ian’s story does not check out.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #317 on: October 22, 2014, 09:19:53 PM »
The Story of Lt. David Scott-Taylor and the Queen

According to Ian and Phil, 1901 was a big year for Ian’s grandfather, and not just because of the May 11th Scores Grand Hotel dinner with three two golf luminaries. Five months earlier, Dr. David Scott-Taylor had been a young officer, a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy, and was serving as ship’s surgeon on naval vessel assigned to protect 81 year old Queen Victoria, who was “vacationing” on the Isle of Wight.  But all was not well with the Queen. 

         By early January she was feeling weak and unwell and growing increasingly drowsy, dazed and confused with each passing day. . . . For those serving her at Osborne House, the Queen’s illness was more than a national crisis. Near the end they realized that a doctor was needed and quickly. At the time her personal physicians were back in London which created a dilemma, for only a physician with a high standing could examine the Queen and there were none on the island.
         A call went out for a physician from one of the ships to be sent to Osborne House immediately, for a physician in the Royal Navy automatically had the standing to examine the Queen. And so, without being told why or who he was going to see, Lt. David Scott-Taylor was shuttled over and immediately shown to the Queen’s chambers. He would attend the Queen while awaiting the arrival of her physician’s. The Queen quietly died in her sleep on January 22nd.


This, according to Phil and Ian, was a major turning point in Ian’s grandfather’s life and a key event in their story, for his brush with real Royalty had led to his introduction to high society and golf royalty, thus setting the stage for all that followed.

         It was because of his support of the actions of the court officials and the Queen’s personal physicians that this formerly unknown naval surgeon gained the regards of many at the highest levels of the government and his reputation as both an officer and a gentleman rose dramatically over-night. Among the privileges to come the way of this young man who passionately loved golf was acceptance into the R&A as an unofficial member where he was welcomed at the club and its luncheons, dinners and events.

I know what you are thinking . . . acceptance into the R&A as an unofficial member? A remarkable claim in and of itself.  But the even more remarkable claim is that Lieutenant David Scott-Taylor had been rushed to the care of the dying Queen, because her “personal physicians were back in London.” Like most of the Ian’s stories about his grandfather, this one just doesn’t check out. I say this after conducting quite a bit of research into the vast amounts of detailed information (from newspaper accounts, memoirs, diaries, histories, etc.) describing the last days of the Queen.  I’ve found no mention anywhere of a young naval officer having been rushed to the aid of the Queen.  More than that, the detailed descriptions of Queen Victoria’s life and death make the story impossible for me to believe.

But don’t take my word for it.  Check it out for yourselves. Good starting points are two relatively recent books which painstakingly detail the last days of the Queen. One is titled, The Last Days of Glory: The Death of Queen Victoria (2001) by Tony Rennell, the other is Ask Sir James (1989) by Michaela Reid.  Both books provide an extraordinarily detailed look at the Queen’s medical care at Osborne House and before, read them and you will realize that Ian’s story cannot possibly be accurate. The sources are the books range from newspaper accounts, to contemporaneous letters, to memoirs written by those who were there, to official court bulletins, to post mortem medical reports, but the most significant sources for our purposes are the detailed diaries of Sir James Reid himself.  Reid was not only the Queen’s primary physician, he was a close advisor, and he was with her constantly near the end.
 
The books and related material leave no doubt; there was never a time at Osborne when the Queen was without access to her own doctors.  Like Windsor Castle, Osborne House had its own medical staff.  And the Queen and Royal Family also had an extensive “Medical Household” consisting of Physicians-In-Ordinary, Physicians Extraordinary, Surgeons-In-Ordinary, Surgeons Extraordinary, and two levels of Apothecaries (who were general practitioners) at their beck and call.  (The structure, distinctions, and responsibilities are more fully explained in the books referenced above.) There were multiple of each in both England and Scotland “so in an emergency there would be at least one available” and the Queen would never be without medical care.

The person most directly involved in taking care of the Queen was Sir James Reid, Queen Victoria’s senior Physician-In-Ordinary, Head of the Royal Medical Household, and her Resident Medical Attendant.  He had no other medical practice. Wherever Queen Victoria went, so went Sir James Reid.  He traveled with her everywhere, and he had quarters in each of her Royal residences, including Osborne House, and tended to her multiple times a day no matter where they were. Incredibly, when Reid was on duty he was not even allowed to sleep anywhere but the current Royal residence of  the Queen.  He was a prominent doctor and had been knighted, but he nonetheless had a curfew. He even had to seek permission to dine away from the current Royal residence.   And when he was on vacation, one of the other Physicians-In-Ordinary was there in his stead, although Reid was often consulted and called back if the Queen so desired.

To give an idea of what the Queen expected of him, here is a directive she had written  to him in 1898 (after he had already served her for close to two decades) about his continuing responsibilities after his pending marriage to one of the Queen’s Ladies in Waiting.
 
I think it's absolutely necessary that Sir J. Reid and Miss Baring should know exactly what their position will be when they are married. Sir James knows that considering my age, I cannot well allow him to leave his present post. This will entail that he must continue living in the House wherever we are, excepting [preapproved vacations.] He must always, as now, come round after breakfast to see what I should want, and then back before lunch. He must also in the afternoon, before he goes out, do the same. Of course as a date shorten and in the winter, he would go out earlier and come back earlier. Sir James should always ask if he wishes to go out for longer, or to dine out, returning by 11 or 11:30. His wife should not come to his room here, nor to the Corredor, we're some of the Royal children live. At Windsor she might occasionally come to his room but this must not interfere with his other duties. It is absolutely necessary that they should be fully aware of these conditions so that they cannot complain afterwards.

And this was when she was relatively healthy.  Over the next few years, her health would decline, an her need for care would grow.  Given Queen Victoria’s age, her many health issues, and her hypochondriac-like tendencies, the Queen was almost always in need of medical advice and care.  She had been battling various medical ailments even before the annual move to Osborne House, so she was most certainly never without medical care during her time there.  By the time they arrived at Osborne House in the winter on December 18, 1900, she was in need of near constant care. "From [her arrival at Osborne] onwards, until her death, the Queen did did not go down into the dining room for her me meals but had her food taken to her room and was to all intents and purposes an invalid."  This was 81 year old Queen Victoria, and her health was slipping even before she arrived at Osborne. The idea that she would be on an island without immediate access to medical care is preposterous.  

While the Queen's staff provided to her other needs, Sir James Reid and her other doctors provided her with medical care.  In addition to Reid and the medical staff at Osborne House, another of her physicians-in-ordinary, Sir Francis Laking arrived on January 5th so that Reid could get some rest for a week.  But this did not mean Reid headed back to London.  It only meant that Reid would, theoretically, be able to spend a bit more time with his wife in a cottage she had rented near Osborne while he was serving there. The reality was that Reid never really got a rest, as the Queen insisted on seeing him,  and Dr. Laking wasted too much of his time.   According to his Reid’s wife he only managed to eat two meals at the cottage during this entire week, and the rest of the time was spent at Osborne House.  (The Queen was quite particular about who cared for her right up to the end, and the idea that she would allow an unknown Naval surgeon to care for her makes no sense.)

As the Queen's condition worsened [in addition to Sir James Reid, Sir Francis Laking, and Dr. Hoffmeister (Queen Victoria’s Surgeon Apothecary at Osborne House0]  other of her doctors traveled to Osborne House aid her, including Sir William Jenner, who had been her primary physician-in-ordinary prior to Reid. But Sir James Reid was the physician most directly involved, and he is the one who provided the best record of the Queen’s medical care, and the most convincing evidence that Ian’s story is inaccurate. From Ask Sir James:

“During the period of Queen Victoria’s final illness and death Reid wrote a minutely detailed account of all that occurred.  And he was with the Queen constantly, hour by hour, day and night, tending to her every need, he, more than anyone else, was in a position to record accurately the events which took place.”

The diary transcripts from the last week of the Queen's life are included in the book, as are many other entries and references, and there is no reference to a young naval surgeon having been called in, and really no purpose for such a call to have been made.  (Unlike the supposed David Scott-Taylor Diary entries, the information in Sir James Reid's diaries can be confirmed by numerous independent sources.)

I could go on, but you get the picture.  Queen Victoria was constantly surrounded by her own medical staff up to the moment of her death, and after.  Her doctors were there.  There was no need or call for a young Naval surgeon to care for her. 

Once again, Ian’s story does not check out.

Saving before future edits.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #318 on: October 22, 2014, 09:23:17 PM »
He's not only an artist but also a GCA!

http://www.ianscott-taylor.com/index.html
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #319 on: October 22, 2014, 09:26:10 PM »
It is quite possible that Queen Victoria was actually a man pretending to be a woman. In cases such as this it is not uncommon to call in a private surgeon.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #320 on: October 22, 2014, 09:40:26 PM »
Here's his artists web page which explains the PhD... And has a picture.

http://ian-scotttaylor.artistwebsites.com



I could be wrong, but I'm 99+% sure that Dr. Scott-Taylor's painting called "Turnberry at War--1943" is of the 8th green on the Kintyre Course, which was not existent in 1943.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #321 on: October 22, 2014, 10:34:55 PM »
"It is quite possible that Queen Victoria was actually a man pretending to be a woman."

Quite possible?  That would probably come of surprise to her nine children.  And to her primary physician, who upon examining her after her death noted that she had a prolapsed uterus.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #322 on: October 22, 2014, 10:36:22 PM »
I forgot this above.  It is from a memorandum from the Queen containing her "command" on how to care for her if she became seriously ill.  (It was written for her previous primary Physician-In-Ordinary, but provided by the Queen to Sir James Reid when he took over.

"The Queen wishes Sir William Jenner to understand that it is her command that in case of serous illness she should only be attended by her own Doctors who always attend her, only calling in, after consultation with Princess Beatrice (supposing she was too ill to be herself consulted), and such Doctor or Surgeon whom her own professional Physicians knew the Queen liked, or thought fit to consult, or who was not a total stranger to herself, and not to yeild to the pressure of any of her other children, or any of her Ministers, for anyone they might wish to name."

Dr. David Scott-Taylor was a "total stranger" to the Queen (and to the Royal Family.)  The Queen had commanded that no such doctors could treat her even in cases of serious illness.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:58:03 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #323 on: October 22, 2014, 11:34:09 PM »
"It is quite possible that Queen Victoria was actually a man pretending to be a woman."

Quite possible?  That would probably come of surprise to her nine children.  And to her primary physician, who upon examining her after her death noted that she had a prolapsed uterus.

Sorry, that was Queen Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen.  Proving that things are rarely as they seem.

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #324 on: October 22, 2014, 11:51:38 PM »
Thank you David Moriarty for filling in/destroying more of the details once again.

While I realize that some on here find parts of this to be tangential, I personally consider it to be highly relevant, simply because.....

From my perspective as something of writer/researcher, I believe that if someone is going to come along with a story which significantly changes otherwise well-recorded history, their new version needs to add up pretty much completely.  There are, of course, quirky historical outliers - cases where an event is reported one way via multiple sources, then somewhat differently elsewhere, and you are left with at least a seed of doubt.  And in that spirit, I would caution against discounting any new narrative simply because not every single detail fits perfectly.  But.....

In this case, I personally viewed what parts of the Scott-Taylor materials I was familiar with to be fraudulent even before any of them appeared on GCA.  Then, once a few parts were posted here, numerous points of the narrative, big and small, were quickly called into question.  If, in response to that, either Ian or Phil Young could have meaningfully defended the great majority of the questioned points, the story might have had a chance of holding up.  But from what I can see, they've defended relatively little - and what they have presented is from secret materials that cannot be viewed, the content of which seems to have changed as needed, and which were "authenticated" by people who won't let their names out because they don't want to be questioned by amateurs on a golf architecture website (as someone with family fairly high up in the art business, that last part actually made me laugh out loud).

So for me, the bottom line is that beyond the possible odd outlying fact/inconsistency, Ian and Phil's story had to add up more or less completely to be credible - and based on the work of David Moriarty and several others here, it seems apparent that they are many, many miles away from getting over that bar.  Indeed, it strikes me that for those so inclined, perhaps a better use of research time going forward might be to see if there's any significant aspect of this story that actually does check out as clearly and demonstrably true.

As I say, outliers...   ;)