Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...

[John Kavanaugh]

The worst thing of all is when Moriarty does edit after edit. It's hard enough to read the first time. When you take over 15 minutes you are changing content not just grammar. It is unethical.

[DMoriarty]

Here are your words, "Bye the bye we do know who called my family thanks to the police service, don't we, you obviously know because you know everything else."  Back up your claim.  Who called your family?  And please provide me the information I requested about the police service. Thanks.
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You don't want to make me look like a fool?  Very valiant of you, but don't worry about it.  I welcome your best efforts to prove your story, whether or not I end up with egg on my face. That is how critical scrutiny works, and I am not afraid of the facts, whatever they may be.  And if the facts are on your side, it will be a quick and painless process for you.

Bottom line is that if you didn't want your story to face critical scrutiny you should not have brought it to golfclubatlas.com, and you certainly shouldn't keep bringing it back.  If you disengage now without addressing even the simplest and most basic questions about your grandfather, then surely that speaks loudly about the veracity. If your story is true and accurate there is no reason for you to run away from a few questions aimed at verifying the information, no matter how much you may not like me or my style.

Do you really think by calling me out as a big meanie you can convince people to forget that you can't or won't provide even the simplest verifiable facts about your grandfather's history before he married your grandmother, such as the names of his previous family members and their places and dates of birth and death, or the place he grew up in Scotland, or even is military regiment number?  I don't.

[Duncan Cheslett]

It is looking increasingly likely the ships doctor in the Australian court case was indeed Ian's grandfather. In 1926 our DST was 50 years old.


The following clipping is from The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954), Thursday 11 February 1926, page 9




The possibility that there were two or more David Scott-Taylors of exactly the same age practicing medicine in the 1920s is negligible.

Scott-Taylor is a very rare surname.

I have one of the most unusual surnames I have ever come across. A Google search reveals 142 Chesletts in the UK, although many entries are duplicates - I appear twice for example. So say 100. I know most of them and we can trace our ancestry back to a single source only seven generations ago,

The same search for Scott-Taylors throws up only 29 people of that name. Most of those appear to be directly descended from Ian's grandfather or have married into the family. That is a very rare surname.

The idea that multiple David Scott-Taylors roamed the world dispensing medicine in the early twentieth century is frankly laughable.

I am now satisfied that there was only ever one Dr David Scott-Taylor. He appears to have led a somewhat haphazard and nomadic life before 'reinventing' himself in his late fifties and marrying a much younger woman - Ian's grandmother.

A year later he was dead.

Not only did Ian never know his grandfather, Ian's father never knew him either. It is arguable whether Ian's grandmother ever really had the opportunity to get to know her husband and much about his past...


Could it be that the journals and sketches are simply the product of a mid-life crisis?

[Bill Brightly]

Just one man's opinion, but after enjoying this debate for a few weeks, I went back to read Phil's In My Opinion piece.

I stopped reading when I read this line in Phil's essay:

Nor will the names of the agency who oversaw the process, as well as the institutions and individuals who performed specific aspects in the authentications process be shared.[i}



Nice drawings, in any event.

[Ryan Coles]

I've just bid a tenner for them on eBay.

[Ulrich Mayring]

As bad as making this unethical call to the old lady was, it is not an ounce better to spread unsubstantiated rumours about David Moriarty having any knowledge of it.

Especially since it is claimed that the police has found out who the caller was, any comment linking David Moriarty with the case is implied to have come from these police investigations.

Ulrich

[Mark Pearce]

As bad as making this unethical call to the old lady was, it is not an ounce better to spread unsubstantiated rumours about David Moriarty having any knowledge of it.

Especially since it is claimed that the police has found out who the caller was, any comment linking David Moriarty with the case is implied to have come from these police investigations.

Ulrich

Indeed.  Having made that allegation Ian Scott-Taylor should either substantiate it or apologise.  I'm not holding my breath.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Making that phone call was clearly not a very classy act by whoever did it, and I'm sure the recipient didn't appreciate it,  but the police?

I'm trying to imagine the reaction of a hard - pressed desk sergeant to the complaint of a middle - aged lady about a phone call from an American bloke asking questions about some drawings and diaries that are something to do with her brother who lives in America...

"Did he threaten you in any way,  Madam?"
"No "

"Has he called before?"
"No"

"Has he called again?"
"No"

[Niall C]

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Duncan and Niall, while you are considering date formats, perhaps you could help an ignorant American understand another seemingly strange British convention . . .

I'd always heard that over there people have long been weighed in "stone."  So I was a bit surprised by the reference to the supposed long hitting American golfer named Fitzroy:  "The tallest, thinnest bloke I ever saw. He had to be 6’5’’ and 170 lbs dripping wet."

Shouldn't this read, He had to be 12 stone dripping wet?

(Never mind that the saying wasn't in use at that point in history, or that nothing else checks out about this supposed May 11, 1901 competition at The Old Course anyway.)

David

It's certainly the convention now which, like the date issue, makes me believe that was the case back then as well.

Niall

[Niall C]

Making that phone call was clearly not a very classy act by whoever did it, and I'm sure the recipient didn't appreciate it,  but the police?

I'm trying to imagine the reaction of a hard - pressed desk sergeant to the complaint of a middle - aged lady about a phone call from an American bloke asking questions about some drawings and diaries that are something to do with her brother who lives in America...

Duncan

If the lady thinks the caller is an imposter, and that seems to be the case, then she is perfectly entitled to call the police as there is no saying what the caller wanted but it would be a fair assumption that it might be to gain information for illegal purposes. As to the Police reaction to the complaint, I suspect in this day and age they took it seriously. Unfortunately telephone scams are quite common these days.

Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

This is quite right.  No one in the UK uses pounds to describe a person's weight. It is always measured in stone. Kilos are now making an entry, but never just pounds.

[Ian Scott-Taylor]

I want to clear some thing up here, it is amazing how people do not read what is posted.  Assumptions and wrong interpretation is rife on this site.

I apologise to Mr Moriarty if he feels violated by my post the inference by my post that he knew who called, this is not correct. It was made out of frustration a bad choice of phrase. I hope it is accepted and noted.  I wish you all a good Sunday.

[Duncan Cheslett]

While we've got you Ian, I'm interested in your story that Alister MacKenzie used to visit your grandfather in Holyhead and it was a visit to Nefyn that gave MacKenzie his inspiration for Cypress Point.

I'm a little puzzled as to when this actually might have been.

[Keith OHalloran]

..

[Niall C]

Phil

Re the independent experts, I don't really have an issue that they remain anonymous, particularly at this point in time. What interests me, probably even more than their conclusions, is what brief have they been given exactly ? What is their respective areas of expertise ?

The reason I ask these questions is that we were previously advised when you published your first essay that everything had been verified by experts. Then after a few days discussion on here, it was shown the story had more holes than Swiss cheese. Perfectly reasonable (and damning) questions were fobbed off with evasive answers and promises of if we knew what I know kind of stuff but no real meaningful response. A lot of those questions remain unanswered eg. mention of the Scores Hotel some 30 years before it came into existence.

As an example, in an earlier post, David mentioned the diary entry of 11th May 1901 that describes DST's golfing opponent as being 170 pounds and the anomaly that that presents in terms of word usage of the day. If I recall that entry correctly, it also mentions DST playing rugby that day at fullback with the number 15 on his back. Apart from the rugby season likely having been over by 5 or 6 weeks at that point, the numbering of shirts wasn't at all common in Scotland until the late 1920's. Even then they used what we now refer to as the reverse numbering system with the fullback being number 1. It wasn't until 1960's or 70's that the present system became standard.

The same diary entry (again if my memory serves me right) refers to DST trying to get 9 holes in. A curious expression back then. A few holes or a game of golf maybe, but 9 holes ? Furthermore, where exactly was he going to get these 9 holes ? Assuming he's based in St Andrews, there was only the Old and the New, both of which were/are typical out and back routings so 9 holes would have left him just about as far from town as he could get. That leaves the Jubilee which back then was only 12 holes. So did DST decide to play the first nine of the Jubilee only and leave the other 3 ? Doesn't seem likely.

Niall

[RJ_Daley]

This case will go right down in the annals of authentication with the process of the authentication of the 'Shroud of Turin".... 

[Ian Scott-Taylor]

Now then I have a question for all you smart folks out there,

Show me a copy of Alister MacKenzies war record, can you smart folks out there find it?   

[Adam Lawrence]

Now then I have a question for all you smart folks out there,

Show me a copy of Alister MacKenzies war record, can you smart folks out there find it?   

If Crafty can't find it, and he's been looking for years, then I doubt it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I would love to see Mackenzie's official war record. I spent a day at the Archives at Kew and made inquiries to the Imperial War Museum but found nothing. I also did extensive research into the camouflage efforts of WW1 and never found a single reference to Mackenzie. Please share!

[Ian Scott-Taylor]

Thanks Mark and Adam,

I rest my case. Now if I said that MacKenzies war record was made up because there's no record can u imagine the uproar!  Just because Moriarty and others can't find a war record doesn't mean it never existed!

Secondly I know that there are still records today from the 1900's  to  today that are still classed under the official secrets act and you or I are not going to get at those records.

And before a smart ass starts I'm NOT saying that my grandfather comes in under that cloud.

There is a lot more to research than sitting on your ass 6,000 miles away on a computer.  You have to do ground work.  Any way thanks guys for just popping a small hole in Mr Moriarty's argument.


Duncan,  the steamer Borda was a P&O steamer,  I have a photo if you like.

[Adam Lawrence]

The Aussie newspapers differ as to whether DST was medical officer of the Borda or of another ship belonging to a different line. P&O, though, has tremendously detailed personnel files for its officers available in London. it will be Interesting to check those out.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I've got lots, Ian.

Here's just a few...

[Will Lozier]

The same diary entry (again if my memory serves me right) refers to DST trying to get 9 holes in. A curious expression back then. A few holes or a game of golf maybe, but 9 holes ? Furthermore, where exactly was he going to get these 9 holes ? Assuming he's based in St Andrews, there was only the Old and the New, both of which were/are typical out and back routings so 9 holes would have left him just about as far from town as he could get. That leaves the Jubilee which back then was only 12 holes. So did DST decide to play the first nine of the Jubilee only and leave the other 3 ? Doesn't seem likely.

Niall

Niall,

Interesting observations, especially about rugby.  Per the 9 holes, I suppose he could have just meant to head out and play some mix of holes such that he ended where he wanted, or, simply played as long as possible such that he made "the turn" in time to get back the house.  We've all snuck out as kids from a particular hole and played some routing that ended us back at either the clubhouse or where we started.  Or, for the Old Course, played 5 out and 4 back...except there would be no reason to as you'd inevitably come to the conclusion (if you where only going to play "9 holes") that you'd might as well play 10.  Honestly, very interesting.  

I would love for these stories to be true, but, there seem to be too many abnormalities from what I know and have read.  I do wish that all those intimately involved to could recognize their tone.  Anyone checking in would think some of y'all are children.  It's like I tell my (private) high school students whom I "meet" through them having to be spoken to about respect or language :  "This is my first impression of you.  Is this a good example of who YOU are?"  And, then they recognize it.

Cheers

[DMoriarty]

Ian,

Now then I have a question for all you smart folks out there,

Show me a copy of Alister MacKenzies war record, can you smart folks out there find it?    

If you want to compare the availability of independently verifiable information about Alistair MacKenzie with the independently verifiable information supporting your story about your grandfather, then by all means, let's do it.  

1. On MacKenzie's side of the Ledger, see the terrific timeline put together by the MacKenzie Research Group:   http://www.alistermackenzie.co.uk/Media/Default/Images/MackenzieChronology.pdf  The timeline documents MacKenzie's entire life, from before his birth until after his death.  It includes detailed information about his family (including detailed vital information about his parents, his siblings, his immediate family(s) and his step-children, and his extended family), his school records starting with grade school, military service (including his ranks, years of service, his commissions, his regiments, this stations, his movements, his responsibilities, his lectures, and much more), his places of residence, his club memberships, his board memberships, his committee memberships, his golf handicap(s), his meetings, details of his attendance at various matches, events and clubs, a detailed work history, his published articles and papers, his golf scores, his competition results, his travel itineraries, his telegrams, letters, his hotel stays, and a whole lot more.  (And his is just off the top of my head from previous reads, I am sure there would be much more than this if I looked.)

The above information isn't from some mystery diary (like the that you won't even show your partner, Phil Young.)  Much of the information has been independently verified by public records, newspaper articles, club records, correspondence files, passenger lists, receipts, club records, tournament records, and a host of other sources.  

2. On the other side of the ledger, let us list out all of the independently verifiable information backing up your stories about your grandfather:  
We have virtually nothing.  
 - No information identifying his first family, or extended first family, because you can't or wont even identify them.
 - No verifiable information on your version of his military service (no names of the ships on which he served, his stations, the dates of his commissions, etc.) because you haven't told us that.
 - No verifiable information on his childhood, except that Phil has indicated he was from Alyth.
 - Almost no verifiable information about his schooling except that David Scott Taylor of Alyth passed his first exam at Edinburgh in 1894.
 - Nothing about his golf club memberships (if we don't count his supposed "informal membership to the R&A.")
 - Nothing about his places of residence, nothing about his medical practice, nothing about anything.  Or at least nothing that checks out.
 - Nothing about his board memberships or committee memberships, nothing about his golf scores, handicaps, or golf competitions, nothing about his rugby club or other clubs, nothing about his rugby matches, nothing about his travel, nothing about his church.  
 
In short, you have refused to tell us anything that could be independently confirmed.  And what you have told us hasn't checked out.

Above you made the snide comment that I must think I know your grandfather's history better than you do.  I won't touch that one, but I will say that my version has one big advantage over your story:  My version of your grandfather's history check out, and your version of your grandfather's history does not.

[DMoriarty]

Niall and Duncan,

Thank you for confirming that across the pond, people are measured in "stone" and not in pounds. I'll add the reference to the long list of things that don't check out.

As for the whether a Scot would have been using the American date convention in 1901-1917, I think what Niall said makes a lot of sense, but I'd need to look into it further before I added it to the list.
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The Aussie newspapers differ as to whether DST was medical officer of the Borda or of another ship belonging to a different line. P&O, though, has tremendously detailed personnel files for its officers available in London. it will be Interesting to check those out.

Adam, DST may have acted as Medical Officer on different ships as well, but he was "Medical Officer" the "Borda" in the mid-1920's. Here a record from August 1925.