Is the Redan a Redan?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Strikes me that the 15th at North Berwick which has lent its name to the template called "The Redan" has been somewhat falsely called.
History is telling us that originally the hole was meant to played with two shots to the green not a single blow as a par 3. Additionally Redan is the reference to the big bunker 50 yards short not the green shape relative to the hole.

So the brilliance (if it is brillant) of the principle is actually by default rather than design.

[Bill Brightly]

Of course it is. But remember, the Redan was just a golf hole before it was named Redan.

It was not a golf hole modeled after a defensive embankment. Rather, a retired soldier remarked that the hole remined him of the redan at Sevastopol. The British laid siege to the fort for a year before the Russians finally abandoned it, so this soldier probably had well-formed memories of the wood and stone structure that they bombed on a daily basis. I assert that the wood-faced front left bunker prompted this remark, not the bunkers cut into the big hill 50 yards short of the green., which largely obscure the green complex.



So even if the hole was played as a par four when it was named, it was the green complex features that Macdonald (and others) mimicked when builidng their one-shot Redans.

[Lou_Duran]

I had studied the Redan in these pages for many year before making my maiden voyage to Scotland.  Playing The Redan was the primary reason I picked N. Berwick to start our trip.  On a beautiful late afternoon I hit a very credible mid-flight longish iron with a bit of hook just to the right of the green where it bounced straight forward a few steps.  Much to my dismay The Redan does not play like a Redan, or at least it didn't that day when the ground was reasonably firm and the wind was not working against the shot.  The concept if not the hole is compelling IMO, though having played some others (e.g. Riviera, Pacific Dunes), I can't remember ever being able to bank it off the right side onto the green.

[Bill Brightly]

I had studied the Redan in these pages for many year before making my maiden voyage to Scotland.  Playing The Redan was the primary reason I picked N. Berwick to start our trip.  On a beautiful late afternoon I hit a very credible mid-flight longish iron with a bit of hook just to the right of the green where it bounced straight forward a few steps.  Much to my dismay The Redan does not play like a Redan, or at least it didn't that day when the ground was reasonably firm and the wind was not working against the shot.  The concept if not the hole is compelling IMO, though having played some others (e.g. Riviera, Pacific Dunes), I can't remember ever being able to bank it off the right side onto the green.

Lou, what happened to your ball? Did it bound through the green or come up short?

[Lou_Duran]

Bill,

It stayed far right, barely on the green a few feet past pin high with the hole cut on the far left side of the green.  It's been more than 10 years, but a review of my scorecard shows that I got it up and down for a 3 (punched a 5 iron with the hole playing at 185).  My son hit a shorter club also right but long and he had a difficult pitch.  A long hitter (nearly drove the 1st hole), I didn't think he wouldn't like the course but he came of way with great affection for N. Berwick.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Does anyone know when they started to call it "Redan"? Played it a few times and I always wondered when naming the holes came into fashion. Did some poor soul lose his cool and say hitting the green is like trying to get out of a pit?

What's the history of naming holes?

[Lou_Duran]

You shoulda seen the shot I hit into #4 at NGLA - a low running big draw/small hook, just the way I envisioned it.  It landed short and right of the green, exactly where I wanted it ... and kicked DEAD FRICKING RIGHT!  UGH!!   Rub of the green can be a bitch.

I skanked a 7 iron short on my only play there and got what I deserved.  Ditto for a driver I hit on #4 at Riviera which barely made it green high to the right.  Tiger Bernhardt on the other hand hit a beautiful draw with his driver which we thought for sure would feed from the right to the pin on the left side of the green.  Nah, the damned kikuyu grabbed it and it bounced a few steps forward into a heavy lie.  I am trying to think if I've ever executed the proper shot on a Redan and can't come up with one.  In eight rounds at Pacific Dunes I have yet to hit the green or make par on 17.  Ditto for my two goes at Yale's #13, right or short, no pars.  I suppose that the hole concept has earned its name.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Adrian I think you’re imagining a two-shotter as something like a driver wedge.  In fact it was more the other way round.  Heres the quote from the other thread.

Here's an interesting addition though. I read this morning an article by Douglas Seaton which more or less confirmed the hole did once play as a two-shotter. Seaton quotes Horace Hutchinson, the 1886/1887 Amateur Champion who said it required a “cleek or iron shot over a wall, so far and no further, and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called the ‘Redan'.”

i.e. It was always supposed to be a full shot into that green. 

As the balls improved then it made sense to do away with the chip over the wall and move the teeing area back to where you could normally see the top of the flag?

[Thomas Dai]

For what it's worth I suggest you have to include the nature of the original fortress in such a discussion where the angles at the 'V' or apex point at the front of the fortress/green throw the ball/attackers off in at least two directions.

Does the 15th at North Berwick do this? Did it once-upon-a-time do this?

Here's the most recent Redan thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59480.0.html

atb

[Bill Brightly]

Lou,

It sounds like the pin was very close to where is was when I played it this year, and you can see that pin in the pictures I posted in the link that Thomas Dai posted above.

My dead straight 6 iron hit one foot short of the green on the right front, rolled 30 feet directly below to the hole, breaking about 10 feet as it did so. There is defintely a right to left tilt, but not as pronounced as some Redans that I have played in the States. That's fine with me, the copies were inspired by the original, so I have no doubt that some of the features were exaggerated.

I think the only way to get it close to a front left pin is with a fade landing short of the green, right over the Redan bunker. Good luck aiming at the 3 or 4 yard landing area...

[Sean_A]

Bill

I think the front location (either side) is more difficult than a rear location...still, two totally different shots.

As for the question, there seems to be a school of thought which thinks the copies are the real Redans.  I have only seen one true template and it is a totally different animal to NB's version.  Can't see how the original isn't a Redan, but copies such as at YHC are, but this is an old discussion that will never be resolved. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scotland-East-Lothian-NORTH-BERWICK-x2-1918-PPCs-Beach-and-GOLF-scenes-/161435029404?pt=UK_Collectables_Postcards_MJ&hash=item2596470f9c

Click on the photo and you can see in the top postcard what I believe to be the bottom of the green.

 Looks ridged from R_L?  Much smoother today.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill

I think the front location (either side) is more difficult than a rear location...still, two totally different shots.

As for the question, there seems to be a school of thought which thinks the copies are the real Redans.  I have only seen one true template and it is a totally different animal to NB's version.  Can't see how the original isn't a Redan, but copies such as at YHC are, but this is an old discussion that will never be resolved.  

Ciao

Sean,

Of course we can resolve it. I just wasn't part of all the old discussions!

Some people go to the dictionary and find the definition of the miltary fortress called a redan. They seem to like the idea of comparing how a golf hole defends against the golfer's approach versus how a redan fort helps defend against attacking soldiers.  People go on to make comments about specific Redan holes based upon how well the hole seems to follow military principles, as Thomas Dai just did above. I understand that: it is kind of cool to think of a golf hole in military terms. It is 100% wrong, but I get it.

As I have said before, the hole at NB was NOT designed with a redan fortress in mind. It was just a golf hole that apparantly had some features that reminded a retired soldier of his time at war in Sevastopol. My money is on the wood-faced front left bunker. In any event, the nickname Redan stuck. Macdonald and others came to admire the hole, so they copied its best GOLFING features, built their own par threes, and called them Redans. At no time did they resort to manuals on proper redan fort construction... Some looked at what was on the ground at N.B., others probably looked at what Macdonald built. Personally, I think Charles Banks simply made CBM's key features bigger. So his Redan bunkers tended to be deeper, and his kick mounds higher. (His Road Hole bunker at my course is at least three time bigger than #17 at TOC.) Raynor never saw N.B. so he just built his holes as CBM described them.

Come to think of it, I was a little disappointed in the two Tom Doak Redans that I had played: Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes because I thought the kick mounds were not dramatic enough. But that was before I played N.B. where the kick mound is not very dramatic, as Lou Doran commented above. So perhaps T.D. did a better of capturing what is on the ground at N.B. than some others...

What Macdonald built at NGLA is superb in terms of being faithful to the original.

So to state the obvious, the hole at North Berwick is the original Redan. All the others are copies and we can discuss if some of the copied features are improvements from the original, or not as good. But the analysis MUST be from a golfing perspective, not military.

[Sean_A]

Bill

I don't have any idea why you are talking about military this and that.  The hole is called the Redan and regardless of why it was given this name, the hole has certain important characteristics.  My point was the Raynor version I played bore almost no relationship to the original.  Its still a good hole, but not nearly as befuddling and not a Redan if we are going to use the original as a way to discuss characteristics of a Redan.  It seems to me that at least in this instance, Raynor was cashing in on a hole name.  Same course, Alps hole.  Its not an Alps by any stretch of the imagination...if we are going to discuss the characteristics of an Alps by looking at the original.  To me, its incredibly misleading and confusing when a hole is called an Alps, quite obviously in homage to the original, but is nothing like the original.  Its a marketing scam which has worked wonders on US right coasters for generations 

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

Let me try and explain it again.

I have never played Yeamans and I don't know enough about Alps holes.  Let's leave Alps holes out of this thread, ok?

From what I recall about your prior posts, your comments about other Redans not being true Redans, you seem to judge all others by how closely they mimic N.B.'s and that is fine. We can have those discussions.

My point here is to stop the analysis of US versions of Redans by comparing them to "the fortress nature" of the hole in military terms.

For example, people say things like: "Sleepy Hollow's Redan can't be a good Redan because it plays downhill and you would never build a fort at the bottom of a hill because it would easily be attacked in battle." That comment may be 100% true in war, but not in golf.

Sleepy's is a reverse Redan, but the playing characteristics of the hole are quite similar to N.B.'s.  You can't fire directly at the pin, you must choose a line well away from the flag, and you must account for significant amount of roll and break. The green is angled and there are menacing hazards running parallel with the green. So the hole has a lot in common with N.B.'s. But it also has some stark differences: it plays dead downhill while N.B.'s is uphill. You can see the entire green at Sleepy Hollow while N.B.'s green is entirely blind. Obviously, Macdonald decided that one of the features of the original that he could deviate from was the uphill nature of the tee shot. As students of golf course architecture, we can accept that or not. Like the hole or not, you must admit that it gives the golfer the added thrill of getting to see exactly what happened to his golf ball. Personally, I think it shows a surprisingly playful element to Macdonald's design.

My point is that we cannot reject Sleepy Hollow's Redan as a good version of the original by saying things like "a fortress green can't play downhill because well-placed military forts are on the high ground." The hole at N.B. was not designed to be a like fort. Rather, it was built as a golf hole and many years named after a fort. Am I making any sense?

[Sean_A]

Yes, Bill, you make sense, but I don't know why you are telling me this.  I didn't characterize the Redan in military terms.  I only stated there are certain aspects of The Redan which are critical...and to be called a Redan (if the original is to have any meaning as a term in gca) these aspects must be adhered to.  For instance, imo, playing downhill certainly doesn't work as a Redan.  This opinion is no reflection on the quality of the hole; it only highlights that to call a downhill par 3 a Redan renders the meaning of what a Redan is as well...meaningless.

Ciao

[Frank Pont]

This topic reminds me of the anecdote of the real Dolly Parton who once participated in a Dolly Parton lookalike contest and came in fourth place.......

[jeffwarne]

This topic reminds me of the anecdote of the real Dolly Parton who once participated in a Dolly Parton lookalike contest and came in fourth place.......

Yesterday I played with a Scottish professional (originally form England)  who has been living in Edinburgh and also East Lothian for the past 10 years or so.
After a morning round at Sebonack (he shot 68) we were eating lunch at Southampton(where he would shoot another 68) and I was explaining the history of the place and Seth Raynor's template style, explaining that he would see various copies of North Berwick's Redan there as well as NGLA where he's playing in a few days.
His response?
"What's a Redan?"

They're a lot bigger deal over here evidently , but when you think of it there are dozens  here and only one over there, so it's just another 15th hole to him

[Niall C]

Jeff

Interesting comment. Frankly, as I think Rich has said somewhere else before, in this country no one really remembers the name of a hole other than the Road Hole for obvious reasons. I think that's why many template holes in this country go unacknowledged. Often no one knows the name of the hole and in nearly every instance there will be no reference to the hole that was used as a template.

Niall

[Frank Pont]

This topic reminds me of the anecdote of the real Dolly Parton who once participated in a Dolly Parton lookalike contest and came in fourth place.......

Yesterday I played with a Scottish professional (originally form England)  who has been living in Edinburgh and also East Lothian for the past 10 years or so.
After a morning round at Sebonack (he shot 68) we were eating lunch at Southampton(where he would shoot another 68) and I was explaining the history of the place and Seth Raynor's template style, explaining that he would see various copies of North Berwick's Redan there as well as NGLA where he's playing in a few days.
His response?
"What's a Redan?"

They're a lot bigger deal over here evidently , but when you think of it there are dozens  here and only one over there, so it's just another 15th hole to him

That story reminds me of a cartoon I first saw in the rock & roll McDonalds in downtown Chicago some 25 years ago.

It shows a heavy built man with a thought bubble saying "I am not very smart, but I can lift heavy things"