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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2014, 08:31:48 AM »
I think it is pretty simple, really. In the old days, pre Seve, GB&I just weren't good enough, so routinely got slaughtered. Once the quality improved, although it is only in recent years where the European team really matches the US team, especially in the bottom half, the Europeans simply play better as a team. That is because they are not defending the constitution, the american way of life, the flag, mom's apple pie, etc etc, they are simply playing for themselves, their team mates, captain and fans. They don't represent Europe, which is, at best, a rather amorphous entity, and at worst a hideous bureaucracy.

McGinley totally gets that, and fed and watered it.

I agree with the analysis of Azinger. He did a decent job but lucked out getting Faldo, who was clearly unsuited to the job.

A smart person said (before Medinah), that two things were certain, the winning captain would get too much credit and the losing captain too much blame. I think that happened at Gleneagles. And it will happen again next time. And the time after ....






Perfectly summed up.

Especially like the part that what Azinger got right was beiing opposite Faldo (can't remember anything Faldo or Azinger did that week myself)
Maybe Mickelson should've responded to the reporters question by remarking what Faldo did wrong, rather than what Azinger did right ;) ;) ;D ;D :o
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2014, 10:05:47 AM »
Until the Americans recognise that the contest is not about proving an empire to still be prevalent they will continue to destroy themselves. That may sound like grandiose yank bashing but it's really just recognition that it's a three day game of golf which has nothing to do with political philosophies.

We British are used to everyone wanting to beat the old masters and we're just about beginning to accept that fact and eat the appropriate humility pill while the rest of the world is beginning to get over it; not that an aussie is likely to hand The Ashes to us anytime soon. The Americans simply need to learn to deal with their position as disliked opponents without reacting to it with brute force and ignorance,  metaphorically speaking of course.  :)

Holy crap!  And I thought they were just playing golf!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2014, 11:03:48 AM »
Sean, it will be interesting to see if anyone can point to specific moves that actually produced a point or a half. I suspect many responses will amount to the typical reply to quantitative analysis of sport: you can't measure heart!  :P 

I say the biggest thing he got right was coaching the Euro team not the USA team, and I've got pre-competition betting odds and OWGR numbers to back up that assertion.

Mark maybe the betting odds reflected the percieved worth of the Captains? Or the Euro's rwinning ecord? Or the fact they were playing at home?


No less than Miss Irvine personally told me that the US team had the lower OWGR average.  I no its true as she said it on the BBC.  :) Can you prove her wrong?


Tony, the euros prior winning record and playing at home supports my argument: captains don't matter. Thanks for the supporting points. Regarding the OWGR, I didn't check the overall (calculate averages of the entire team) but no matter, that's a good point. I keep forgetting that the OWGR's purpose is field selection in regular events, not player rankings. Big difference. The OWGR is probably irrelevant as a marker of overall team quality or even of head-to-head matchups.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2014, 12:13:26 PM »
Sean, it will be interesting to see if anyone can point to specific moves that actually produced a point or a half. I suspect many responses will amount to the typical reply to quantitative analysis of sport: you can't measure heart!  :P 

I say the biggest thing he got right was coaching the Euro team not the USA team, and I've got pre-competition betting odds and OWGR numbers to back up that assertion.

Mark maybe the betting odds reflected the percieved worth of the Captains? Or the Euro's rwinning ecord? Or the fact they were playing at home?


No less than Miss Irvine personally told me that the US team had the lower OWGR average.  I no its true as she said it on the BBC.  :) Can you prove her wrong?


Tony, the euros prior winning record and playing at home supports my argument: captains don't matter. Thanks for the supporting points. Regarding the OWGR, I didn't check the overall (calculate averages of the entire team) but no matter, that's a good point. I keep forgetting that the OWGR's purpose is field selection in regular events, not player rankings. Big difference. The OWGR is probably irrelevant as a marker of overall team quality or even of head-to-head matchups.

Mark,
I think the question might be the degree to which captains do or do not matter; I don't think you'll find much support for the idea that they don't matter at all.  And I think it is entirely possible that the Euro selection process and the way the captains have functioned in the run-up to the event might be superior enough to what the US is doing that the degree to which it matters has consistently fallen to the Euros favor, thus reducing the appearance of having made a difference for any one captain.

That was Ben Wright's point on XM radio Friday morning.  US captains are picked as a reward for a career, and too often treat the job that way.  Euro captains, on the other hand, are selected in a completely different process with buy-in from the players and previous captains, and then are mentored throughout so that they have the best chance of getting it right when the event finally comes.  So it might not seem that they are doing much that weekend because the preparation was so thorough and so careful.

John Wooden was referenced (in a odd and speculative context) in one of the other threads on this subject.  During games, Coach Wooden sat with a rolled up program; he rarely stood, and VERY rarely called time-out.  By today's standards, he would appear to be almost not really coaching at all, if not completely disinterested.  His philosophy was that he had prepared his team for the game, and they were as ready to play as he could get them.  Indeed, his preparation began on the first day of practice with teaching his players EACH YEAR how to put on their socks and tie their shoes in such a way as to not get blisters!  Anyone who believes that Wooden won ONLY because he had the best players has never coached basketball, I assure you.

That's not to say that the Euros won because of McGinley.  They had a better team top to bottom going in, and were the favorites.  But he sure didn't screw anything up, and that's the biggest single thing a coach can do with talent.  And it matters.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2014, 12:51:38 PM »
A.G., thanks for that reply.

Let me say up front we are discussing the Ryder Cup and not other sports / events. Some of what I have to say applies beyond the Ryder Cup, but I am writing specifically about the Ryder Cup. It's not basketball.

Yes, I believe there are a handful of *decisions* that potentially matter to the outcome. A "handful" as in: not many -- team selection, pairings, and order of play. That's probably it. "Potentially" as in: even some / most of those presumably significant decisions might not matter. Nobody seems to have done any real analysis of these decisions. For example, has anyone produced any analysis to show whether anything other than random pairings make a difference? There is a tremendous amount of "because it's always done this way" when it comes to the RC. Lots of "feelings" and voodoo -- crap people use to layer narratives over a random collection of observations.

The power to make some but not all of those decisions are vested in a role called "captain." The most important decision made by a captain probably is made before the competition begins: captain's picks for the team. If all other decisions of potential impact were taken from the captain and performed by, say, a random selection engine (a la coin flips), my contention is the outcome probably would not change. But because the powers that be apparently have not done any real research and analysis on the issue, who can say? Who can say. Helluva way to run a railroad in this day and age. Assuming of course the powers that be care about the outcome. They might not, actually. They're cashing some pretty big checks so why change anything other than the window dressing (3 vs 4 vs 2 captain's picks).

And that's my point about the irrelevance of captains: in the absence of real information, who can say whether a coin flip would do as good if not a better job? Given the experience in other areas where a rigorous, data-driven analytical approach is brought to bear on decisions, most probably the quality of captains is the equivalent to that of flipping coins. Oh sure, sometimes a captain's decision making lines up with the talents and qualities of the team he captains, but that's a random thing.

I suppose the wildcard is if players quit on a coach, ie decide not to play their best. I would hope the quality of professionals at the top of their games is such they don't quit, which we can all agree would be deeply unprofessional and, given this event in particular, downright unpatriotic. That said, given what I'm reading it seems possible a number of American professionals may have tanked. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that happened, but nevertheless...
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2014, 02:52:47 PM »
Mark,
In ANY sport, the single biggest factor in winning and losing is the abilities of the players.  Whatever is second is second by a LOT!  In an individual sport like golf, that is almost certainly more true than in traditional team sports.  I also take your point about the lack of metrics to help us analyze what has happened in the Ryder Cup.

That said, there ARE things that matter in the pairings.  Woods and Mickelson playing together was a predictable disaster, but Sutton did it anyway.  (In fact, it's possible that playing Mickelson with anybody in a foursomes is asking for trouble!)  Pairing players together who hit the ball similar yardages, or pairing a guy who makes a lot of birdies but is erratic with a guy who makes par after par are other ideas that have been used. 

All of that is likely more art than science, and since it is a once-every-two-years event with a different captain every time, we're never going to get the metrics that you and I both like.

But since the thread is titled, "What Did McGinley Do Right", I'll stipulate that we can't quantify that beyond my previous statement that he didn't screw up the better team, which was his biggest job.  If you want to see a list of things he could have screwed up, read my last post in the other thread about what Watson did wrong; McGinley didn't do any of those things.  So he mattered, IMO.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2014, 06:09:35 PM »
Interesting replies thus far.  I guess I have one foot in Mark B's camp and one foot elsewhere.  I personally don't think metrics will do any good in trying to figure out pairings etc.  It may help in trying to decide who to pick...maybe.  I don't know what McGinley did or didn't do, I was hoping for some inside knowledge. 

Other than using an informed gut feeling (which is very valid IMO) to determine some pairings, its my contention that the Captain can make a difference in the culture/tone of how he goes about his business...and that culture/tone will probably change depending on who is on the team.  I have long thought the process is ass backwards.  If a Captain can't select his team, he shouldn't be selected until there is a good idea of who will be on the team.  That may mean no Captain until April or May previous to the event.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2014, 07:22:39 AM »
Until the Americans recognise that the contest is not about proving an empire to still be prevalent they will continue to destroy themselves. That may sound like grandiose yank bashing but it's really just recognition that it's a three day game of golf which has nothing to do with political philosophies.

We British are used to everyone wanting to beat the old masters and we're just about beginning to accept that fact and eat the appropriate humility pill while the rest of the world is beginning to get over it; not that an aussie is likely to hand The Ashes to us anytime soon. The Americans simply need to learn to deal with their position as disliked opponents without reacting to it with brute force and ignorance,  metaphorically speaking of course.  :)

Holy crap!  And I thought they were just playing golf!

They are. That's the point.  :)
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Douglas Kelley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2014, 12:23:42 PM »
McGinley picked this sweater:


Rather than this sweater:

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2014, 07:02:00 PM »
McGinley picked this sweater:


Rather than this sweater:


Which was a good pick by McGinley.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2014, 07:47:20 PM »
He's gonna be King, or Knight, a Duke or Viscount or Lord or Tory or some sort of peerage, right?  An honour, not an honor, surely is headed his way. He has not yet been rewarded for the enormity of his talent, skill and infallibility. Please tell me there's more in store for this omniscient one.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 07:54:52 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2014, 01:28:24 AM »
He's gonna be King, or Knight, a Duke or Viscount or Lord or Tory or some sort of peerage, right?  An honour, not an honor, surely is headed his way. He has not yet been rewarded for the enormity of his talent, skill and infallibility. Please tell me there's more in store for this omniscient one.

Who by Terry?  The European Parliament - no Honours system there?  The REPUBLIC of Ireland where he comes from?


For humour to hit the mark it needs a smattering of truth in it.  I'm afraid its more proof you just don't understand this subject at all. ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did McGinley Do Right? New
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2014, 03:17:57 AM »
I believe the only UK golfer to get a 'big' honour is Sir Nick, although I think Henry Cotton was due to become Sir Henry but passed away just before the granting was to become official so it became a posthumous knighthood.

NZ has Sir Bob however, but Commonwealth countries each have a nominations quota. No knighted 5-time Open winner Peter from Aussie though.

As to the original question - "What Did McGinley Do Right?" - I reckon he simply didn't do anything wrong.

atb
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 04:08:12 AM by Thomas Dai »

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