[Martin Toal]

Scotland
St. Andrews (old)  (Rated #4 course in the world)
Askernish
North Berwick (Rated #68 in the world)
Elie

England
St. Enodoc
Cavendish
St. Georges Hill
Royal St. George’s (Rated #29 in the world)

Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush (Valley)

Really?

I think Cavendish and Askernish would be better described as unknown.

I really don't think Royal Portrush Valley is unloved. But it is a very different proposition to Dunluce.

The queues at TOC suggest many love it, or at least want to play it.

For some of these, I would be rather glad they are not as well known as they might, and keep them as our little secret.

[Ivan Lipko]

Speaking of St.Georges hill , Darius Oliver calls is it the prettiest and possibly the best of all heathland courses.Doesnt sound like any lack of love to me.

[Dan Kelly]

To Tom Doak --

It is the writer's lot to be misunderstood by those who cannot read!

To various others --

This is what Mr. Doak said, by way of explanation, earlier in this very thread:

"I was asked to write on 'underrated' courses ... after negotiating my way out of writing about 'overrated' courses.

"Unloved is something very different, I think."

Dan

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen (as we chased off all the ladies with our pedantic dissections of minutiae),

Since admission to the Treehouse requires highly refined sensibilities rarely found among the unwashed hoi polloi, I do not think it is a coincidence that under-appreciated courses tend towards shorter, clever architecture - often combined with unusual feature work. I’m struggling to think of a single unloved layout of real merit that would not be considered a bit too easy for modern gunners armed with a howitzer.

This seems to be the demarcation line; it is possible real scratchmen are playing a different game than we mortals - and are therefore immune to the charms of a quirky layout of abbreviated length. I’ve played enough golf with Tom to know we hit the ball roughly the same distance and have similar skills; both of us are pretty good, but hardly great and therefore unable to simply overpower a Prestwick or Lahinch.

Classical strategies have become largely irrelevant with the march of technology - which seems to exponentially benefit stronger players by a factor of at least five. My findings several years ago demonstrated that a new driver set up (and the optimum ball) for my particular specs would AT BEST obtain 5-8 yards more off the tee with about 20% better shot dispersion. Pretty damned good, right? There is a big-ass difference between hitting a 4-iron and a 5-iron into an elevated green.

Put that same advantage in the hands of a low-handicapper (not one like me that depends on an arsenal of cutesy fluff shots) with some bat speed and while the dispersion might only improve 5-10%, the increase in carry and roll distance is often between 30-40 yards. Once a youngster stands on the first tee armed with a viagra drip in their golf bag (like he needs any more advantage), the game changes.

When confronted with a Redan, I’m fingering my 4-iron or rescue club - trying to figure out where to land my tee shot to catch the bounce and feed to the pin. 27 year-old Justin Kaboom, ignoring the contours of the green complex, whips out his over-length 7-iron, tees up a Super Ball and hits a towering cut that drops out of the sky next to the pin. So ended the Crimean War - as C.B. Macdonald spins in his grave.

I’ve come to believe the newfound spiritual awakening spreading through the G.D. Panel stems from the simple fact the average age appears to have climbed the last few years. Most of us are not quite so spiffy off the tee anymore - and there are more broom handles and horse-cock grips on our flat sticks than Bulls Eye blades with skinny-ass leather wraps. This tends to give some perspective once you’re standing too close to the ball after you hit it. BTW, I finally concluded the cure for whiskey fingers is not more fucking whiskey, but that is a plaintive tale for the next K.P.

Selah.



        

                

[JMEvensky]

I’ve come to believe the newfound spiritual awakening spreading through the G.D. Panel stems from the simple fact the average age appears to have climbed the last few years.         

                

Agree with all you wrote,but this seems worthy of discussion. Has GD's panel had a spiritual golf course design awakening or just realized that their raters are no longer good enough to score on courses they formerly considered "great"?

BTW--ever met any washed hoi polloi?

[John Kavanaugh]

I’ve come to believe the newfound spiritual awakening spreading through the G.D. Panel stems from the simple fact the average age appears to have climbed the last few years.         

                

Agree with all you wrote,but this seems worthy of discussion. Has GD's panel had a spiritual golf course design awakening or just realized that their raters are no longer good enough to score on courses they formerly considered "great"?

BTW--ever met any washed hoi polloi?

I would say the awakening may have more to do with the large number of GD's panel that are trained by Brad Klein before they "jump" ship.

[Dan Kelly]

When confronted with a Redan, I’m fingering my 4-iron or rescue club - trying to figure out where to land my tee shot to catch the bounce and feed to the pin. 27 year-old Justin Kaboom, ignoring the contours of the green complex, whips out his over-length 7-iron, tees up a Super Ball and hits a towering cut that drops out of the sky next to the pin. So ended the Crimean War - as C.B. Macdonald spins in his grave.

Even without the priceless "Justin Kaboom" -- which needs to be a character in the next comic golf novel ("Fifty Shades of Green"?) -- this is perfect.

[Gib_Papazian]

Barny,

I don't know anybody aside from me who marched under both flags - not that I want you to out anybody. Although it has been many years, there is no doubt Brad's panelists reflected a great appreciation for charm and quirk. My knowledge is certainly dated, but GW golf course ratings perhaps leaned more towards visceral impressions and philosophical prejudices than hard-core analysis. Not sure if my friend Jon Cummings (rocket scientist/golf writer) is still in charge of organizing the Golf Week numbers. My assertion would be the average handicap on the GD panel at one time was quite a bit lower than the Golf Week gang, but I'm not sure if that is the case any longer. We are all getting older - so perhaps the gap is closing a bit.

Whitten has always been a whole lot less dogmatic and though his system is long on categorical analysis, Ron is the last guy to demand group-think. I don't always agree with him, but since he admitted to me NGLA is his favorite course in America (note: FAVORITE, not greatest), its no wonder I tend to naturally see things his way.

Look John, tastes in fad and fashion change and evolve. I tried to get that across in my Art & Architecture opinion piece a few years ago. I think American expectations and taste have undergone a Renaissance (no pun intended) - and the GD Panel reflects it pretty well. 20 years ago, the idea of NGLA being rated ahead of one of those mean-spirited obstacle course was unthinkable. Maybe Brad was ahead of his time - the enfant terrible of the ratings game - but entrenched institutions tend to embrace change more slowly.

         

   

[Peter Pallotta]

Nice! But perhaps, as you and JME have already intimated, it may also be a case of needs-based value systems. To paraphrase badly a line I once read: "Every profession confirms the validity of its own biases. A discussion amongst grammarians about the causes of World War II would conclude that Chamberlain had misunderstood Hitler's grammar". Many are wearing the bottoms of our trousers rolled, and the mermaids are no longer (for the most part) singing their songs to us -- and so lo-and-behold we now re-discover the great value and worth in the once-forgotten "sporty" course. And that's okay too, I suppose.

Peter

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

Just a late chime in here...

Fenway - TD...even without the semantics of unloved, underrated...this course. I was wondering what your opinion is of the middle of that course?

One of the reasons I tamp down my own praise for this very fine course is its middle...holes 7-14...the first six are among the most enjoyable opening act to be found... the closing four are bold, varied, require precise play to be advantaged... a comprehensive "last section" of completing a good round... but those middle 8 are not up to the standards before and after them, significantly under them, though #13 is a rewarding hole and is a welcome difference from the six before it.

But doesn't Fenway deserve some sanction, some underrating, for the near identical "sameness" of #7 & 10, AND #s 8 & 12?... For the awkwardness of #9, the plainness of #14?...For the capricious, charmless 11th?

Also:

... I'm also not sure that Winged Foot West has an ounce more charm than Carmoustie, which would be one ounce above zero. If I belonged to W.F., I'd play the little brother every day and probably never set foot on the other tee. I prefer beauty with brains.

While the "set-foot on the other tee" is overstated, this statement was on the mark. I observe that the more one (outing guest, guest, member) plays there, the more the East is valued and desired...  To extend the "beauty with brains" analogy, I'll say the West is like a former Miss America-now-gold-digging MILF-Cougar with enormous knockers, who leaves marks, and tells you not to get too attached b/c you're not that great in the sack to begin with; she was just horny. By comparison, the East is like a comely young widow with whom you strike up a conversation at a driving range where she is by herself in the stall, who just took up golf, and is an unexpectedly, absolute twisted freak in bed. You get married, have a few kids, and later celebrate your 50th wedding anniversary by playing TOC for the first time.

cheers

vk

[Ian Andrew]

Can I offer up Cape Breton Highlands (Highland Links) as unloved?
Architecturally its among the one or two best we have , but every rating says its barely in the top 10

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