Best courses on difficult to terrible land

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There are countless threads dealing with terrible courses built on great land.  There certainly is a strong case that can be made that the land makes for the course.  However, due to the realities of modern course building, very rarely is the architect afforded great pieces of land.  Most courses built on lousy land are terrible at best.  However, there are courses that, somehow, achieve quality architectural value and provide a very enjoyable game.  In this category, walking is almost an impossibility, but there are probably a few that even achieve that outcome.  The gold standard that I have seen so far is Stone Eagle, because it is brilliantly routed on extreme land with walkability for the really fit.  Though  cartball due to ridge crossings, Eagle Glen by Todd Eckenrode is a remarkable feat
.
!0 of the holes are routed way up in the distant hills, and only 5 are able to be in the flood wash area.  This was a massive real estate development that had to used a ffew hundred acres of open space--the worst land for the golf course, and the old orange groves for the housing and schools





Stone Eagle

[Jon Cavalier]

Greywalls in Michigan has to be on any such list, I think. I'll post some photos later, but I thought this was a really fun, highly playable and well designed course on one of the most difficult pieces of land I've ever seen.

[mark chalfant]

Ross got an awful lot out of the challenging terrain at Glens Falls.     Ditto  CC of Troy  by Travis.

Emmets work at rugged  Bonnie Briar  is very good 

[Patrick_Mucci]

NGLA

[Bill Brightly]

NGLA

Followed by Yale.

[Bill_McBride]

NGLA

Please explain, citing examples.  I thought the NGLA property was pretty interesting, lots of up and down, the lake in play on a couple of holes, the spectacular view from 17 tee.   I've seen many decent courses on much worse terrain.  Talking Stick North comes to mind. 

[Tom_Doak]

I will second Greywalls, which I played three weeks ago.  The view on the way up to the 1st tee was daunting, but we walked 18 holes no problem.  Thank God someone brought our cart down to the 18th green as we finished so we didn't have to climb back up to #1 tee to get it!!

Country Club of Troy is also excellent use of a big hill.

I thought Glens Falls was terrific, but didn't think it was nearly as severe as the others mentioned here.  It is a brilliant routing that makes the most of the dramatic middle of the property.

[Peter Pallotta]

Riviera #10.   

Oh, sorry... I thought that was the omnibus answer to every question.

 

It is. But in this case you should've trotted out the other omnibus answer to every question - The Old Course. 

(Those two answers will cover you in about 99% of all threads. Art Hills will get you that last 1%).

Also, you should now quickly start the (inevitable) new thread: Worst Courses on Good to Excellent Land.

(Go with Art Hills on that one).

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Though Yale included some engineering feats, Glens Falls has some serious hilly ground movement, and preemptively,  Whippoorwill, Sleepy Hollow, and Alpine are on simply rough sites with abundant good golf terrain.  The courses pictured above, would never be considered possible golf course land.  Those who have been fortunate to play Stone Eagle have to walk off the 1st time in amazement how a great course could have been built on that terrain.  I'm interested in seeing Greywalls because to create a great course on extreme landforms is incredible.

[Thomas Dai]

In view of the recent thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59564.0.html - are any nominations of the Castle Course at St Andrews likely!
Apologies folks, unable to resist
atb

[Jim Nugent]

I was going to say NGLA, but I wonder if it really fits the bill?  The land itself was/is brilliant: great, sandy soil, few if any trees, wind, and land forms that lent themselves brilliantly to the ideal holes CBM wanted to build.  Isn't that why CBM chose it?  The problem was what covered a goodly part of that land. 

[Bill_McBride]

I was going to say NGLA, but I wonder if it really fits the bill?  The land itself was/is brilliant: great, sandy soil, few if any trees, wind, and land forms that lent themselves brilliantly to the ideal holes CBM wanted to build.  Isn't that why CBM chose it?  The problem was what covered a goodly part of that land. 

Which was?

[Carl Rogers]

RTJ's Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg, VA ... very narrow, abrupt hills in the middle of the property

[Patrick_Mucci]

NGLA

Please explain, citing examples.  I thought the NGLA property was pretty interesting, lots of up and down, the lake in play on a couple of holes, the spectacular view from 17 tee. 

Bill,

Evidently you've never read "Scotland's Gift", page 187 in particular.

Macdonald described it in negative terms. (page 187)

Who am I to contradict Macdonald on his evaluation of the land ?

You've only seen the finished product.

By the way, Tehama has great views too. 


I've seen many decent courses on much worse terrain.  Talking Stick North comes to mind. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was going to say NGLA, but I wonder if it really fits the bill?  The land itself was/is brilliant: great, sandy soil, few if any trees, wind, and land forms that lent themselves brilliantly to the ideal holes CBM wanted to build. 

Jim,

That's not true.

Macdonald described the land in places as "impoverished, requiring 10,000, that's 10,000 loads of additive soil.

He also stated that the land abounded in bogs and swamps.

Hardly brilliant, great sandy soil

Isn't that why CBM chose it? 


NO

The problem was what covered a goodly part of that land. 

I thought you indicated that it had "few trees" ?

Read "Scotland's Gift", it's a wonderful book.

[J Sadowsky]

I will second Greywalls, which I played three weeks ago.  The view on the way up to the 1st tee was daunting, but we walked 18 holes no problem.  Thank God someone brought our cart down to the 18th green as we finished so we didn't have to climb back up to #1 tee to get it!!

Country Club of Troy is also excellent use of a big hill.

I thought Glens Falls was terrific, but didn't think it was nearly as severe as the others mentioned here.  It is a brilliant routing that makes the most of the dramatic middle of the property.

What was the most difficult or terrible land you built a course on?  My guess - and this is a sort of trick answer - is Rawls?

[J Sadowsky]

RTJ's Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg, VA ... very narrow, abrupt hills in the middle of the property

Locally, I think the answer might be Glenn Dale, but only because they were able to fit a whole interesting 18 hole golf course (plus a driving range) on such a tiny property.

[Sven Nilsen]

I will second Greywalls, which I played three weeks ago.  The view on the way up to the 1st tee was daunting, but we walked 18 holes no problem.  Thank God someone brought our cart down to the 18th green as we finished so we didn't have to climb back up to #1 tee to get it!!

Country Club of Troy is also excellent use of a big hill.

I thought Glens Falls was terrific, but didn't think it was nearly as severe as the others mentioned here.  It is a brilliant routing that makes the most of the dramatic middle of the property.

What was the most difficult or terrible land you built a course on?  My guess - and this is a sort of trick answer - is Rawls?

Has to be Lost Dunes.

[Tom_Doak]

What was the most difficult or terrible land you built a course on?  My guess - and this is a sort of trick answer - is Rawls?

Stone Eagle was the most difficult, but I would never call that "terrible" land ... it's one of the most beautiful sites we've worked on.  It was just extremely hilly.

The Rawls Course was difficult in that we had to create the whole thing.  Our just-finished project in China was similar, and maybe even more difficult than The Rawls, because of all the engineering concerns of being in a flood plain [actually right in the middle of the river] yet trying to keep the greens up out of the flood waters.  I owe Eric Iverson an easy job one of these years, since he's had to shepherd a lot of our most difficult ones.

Just saw Sven's post ... I would never have thought of Lost Dunes as difficult.

[Sven Nilsen]

I missed the distinction between "difficult" land to construct a course on and a tough parcel to route a course on. 

To through another course into the mix, perhaps the original Lido takes the cake.

Sven

[David Stamm]

I'm uncertain Stone Eagle's land is "terrible", but it is without a doubt a difficult property to build on.


What I am certain of is that Stone Eagle is fantastic. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I agree that Stone Eagle is in the very difficult land category. I would imagine coming up with a viable routing was a difficult and time consuming process because there are some sensational natural green sites that needed great vision in mapping out holes to make them viable.  Not sure if this is too much of a stretch, but I think the current routing required the same kind of creative conceptualization that Thomas displayed when he routed Bel Air.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bayonne

[Carl Rogers]

I wonder if Lester George is out there lurking ....
After the George Cup this weekend and there is some more play at Ballyhack by some of the site participants, this thread needs to be bumped.  Let's not call the Ballyhack site, SW of Roanoke, VA terrible, but let's call it very challenging.

[Mike Hendren]

Augusta National Golf Club.  When to go down, when to come up and when to turn sideways?

Bogey