What did Watson do wrong ?

[John Kirk]

The competing argument is that the United States players are more selfish or individualistic, and less willing or able to be led.

Mr. Watson has already publicly apologized for his performance, in a rather broad and general manner.  I see significant cultural differences between the older captain and his players.

[George Pazin]

Watson shouldn't have answered the phone when the PGA called.

[David_Tepper]

Further comments:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/john-hawkins/hawks-nest-ryder-cup-fallout-enters-week-2/

[Thomas Dai]

I'm curious to know if anything good has been said or written about Tom Watson's captaincy? Anyone herein or within golf and the media generally reckon he did anything, well um, right?

Just curious.

atb

[Stephen Hynes]

My first post ... my 2 (Euro) cents ... I went to my first Ryder Cup in 1981 when the US fielded a team that paired Watson and Nicklaus and trounced Europe at Walton Heath. The tide was changing and Europe were unlucky not to win in 1983 - once they won in 1985 and several European players began to win Majors (Seve, Ollie, Woosnam, Lyle, Faldo) the European team began to believe that they could win and their standard of golf was on a par (pardon the pun) with the US players. Apart from a few lapses, as we all know it has been pretty much Europe all the way since. I believe the European Tour have found a winning formula from the administration where Richard Hills fronts the business administration side thru to the choice of Captain which is hotly contested and all the top players want to be Captain. Paul McGinley comes from a rich tradition of team golf in the Irish Amateur scene both inter club, provincial and international and he was also a Walker Cup player. He served his apprenticeship in the Seve Trophy and was a Vice-Captain in Medinah. He is a "current" tour player and spent a lot of time getting close to his team - they were a team from a long way out. Tom Watson is a legend but as others have pointed out, he is not close to the current players (ironically he is probably closer to Mickelson than any other member of the US team). I thought he cut a lonely figure at Gleneagles - even after the first morning at Gleneagles he was still doing interviews on the 18th green when the afternoon play had already started.

When it all boils down ...the Europeans outplayed the US team and although we will never know, I believe that Europe would have beaten any combination/permutation of the US players. Horschel, Kirk (Haas?) might have made some difference (not to mention Duffner and Johnson). I think Mickelson let himself down but one can understand the emotion of the moment - he is a winner and he wears his heart on his sleeve. I hope that the match at Hazeltine will be another epic battle with great golf on a terrific golf course. The US should pick a "current" player - Stricker, Furyk or Phil himself maybe but I wouldn't want to give any advantage to the home team ...

[Jon Wiggett]

Stephen,

it is difficult to pick a captain who might make the team which to me rules out all the guys you suggest. I would suggest someone such as Duval as being a perfect candidate. He also seems to have the sort of meticulous eye for detail that would be needed to ensure success.

If I were the US Captain I would want the top 24 players to pair off and playoff in foursomes against each other to get in the team.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I stand corrected.  
Captains are useless when it comes to the Ryder Cup, no matter if they win or lose.  

For that matter, so are coaches in every sport.  

On that, I'll have to disagree.
The drafting of game plans and adjustments as the game progresses and recruiting are all coach driven.
But, when it comes to playing on the field, there's not much a coach can do.

As Chris Carter told me, what can a coach teach me about catching a football ?

These teams should just captain themselves.  
What's the point, it's just an X's and O's thing and the players can handle that.  

Execution is done on the field, but, game planning is done in the film/coaches room.

You have so much to learn and I only have a limited amount of time.

I know the PGA is going to sit down and take a hard look at what needs to change in the future.  
Maybe a captainless team will be an option.

Figureheads remain an important aspect of marketing

I would like to quote the great Knute Rockne though:  "I've got nothing for you guys.  Just go out and play your best".

So, if you were selected for the Walker Cup, you'd need a coach to pump you up ?

Lastly, the girls that John McEnroe dated!  I see women walk by me every day that are far more beautiful that the women John McEnroe dated.

Dream on.

The John McEnroe you're thinking about was a male nurse in San Francisco  


I could understand if you threw out the women that George Clooney dated, or Brad Pitt, Jimmy Connors, or thousands of other men, but John McEnroe.  I actually threw up in my mouth a little bit when I read that comment.

Agree about Jimmy Connors.

Right now John Derek remains one of my heros  

I do appreciate you adding me to the "Mucci's morons" club.  I am humbled.  All in good fun Pat.

Scott, the ranks are swelling at an ever increasing pace, I had to poll the committee to get you with an 8-1 vote.
Usually, it's unanimous.
    

[Garland Bayley]

Hard to accurately cover an event if your source is a liar.

http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2014/10/9/6951403/brandel-chamblee-phil-mickelson-ryder-cup-press-conference

[Will Lozier]

Hard to accurately cover an event if your source is a liar.

http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2014/10/9/6951403/brandel-chamblee-phil-mickelson-ryder-cup-press-conference

I think Chamblee is spot on here...succinct and honest.

[A.G._Crockett]

Hard to accurately cover an event if your source is a liar.

http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2014/10/9/6951403/brandel-chamblee-phil-mickelson-ryder-cup-press-conference

I think Chamblee is spot on here...succinct and honest.

I must have missed something; nobody who was actually there has contradicted Mickelson, have they?  And even Watson's comments at the presser and his later statement/apology didn't say Mickelson was wrong, much less lying; he talked about different management styles and perspectives.

Chamblee is paid by the Golf Channel to be a flamethrower; it's what he does.  Nobilo is the good cop, Chamblee the bad.  The bigger the target, the more critical he becomes.  He knows more about Tiger's golf swing than he did his own, and this is more of the same.  Doesn't mean there isn't something to it, but calling Mickelson a liar is standard stuff for him.

And BTW, asking people to write down with whom they wished to play doesn't mean it happened, and I'm pretty sure Reed and Speith didn't ask to sit out on Friday afternoon after winning 5-4 that morning.

[Pat Burke]

Not going to comment on "liar"

But before the uproar, there was no doubt that Watson's leadership style was chafing, if
not confusing to some.
I am certain Brandel's sources are as confident as mine.
What I will say, is that it certainly seems there is a competitive leadership vacuum from
the PGA down through players.
Without that vacuum, Europe may only have scored 14 1/2 points!!

[Garland Bayley]

Hard to accurately cover an event if your source is a liar.

http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2014/10/9/6951403/brandel-chamblee-phil-mickelson-ryder-cup-press-conference

Kind of sad and a bit pathetic you would write this. Was Brandel in the rooms and meetings? No. Has ANY player yet to contradict what PM said? That speaks volumes more than anything in my book.

You have a hard on for Watson and that's fine. But your continued arrows at Mickelson and his fellow pros has worn thin and subsequently have warranted your opinions on this and most everything else as tripe.

Presumably one or more players have contradicted what PM said, unless you are now calling Mr. Chamblee a liar. To presume credibility of Mr. Ryder Cup eight time loser PM seems to me to be a bit incredulous. As Mr. Westwood has said, Mr. eight time loser should keep his mouth shut.

Besides, you think Keegan and Phil were paired in spite of each of them asking for another pairing?

You want to know tripe? Tripe is assuming that you know that Reed and Spieth would be killers at foursomes and thereby criticizing Watson for not playing them on Friday afternoon. I call that myopic hindsight conjecturing.

[Jon Wiggett]

Seems to me the US lost the Ryder Cup on the foursomes. That being the case then Watsons mistake was not realising that the key to foursomes is pairing a good iron player with a good putter and the US players mistake was not realising the importance of keeping the ball in play tee to green and hitting greens in regulation.

Jon

[Pat Burke]

Has there been any players come out to defend Watson?  Or take on Phil?

Hunter's comments were interesting about euros playing hard for their captain, and the need for US to
look more to the euro model

Would that be considered a shot at Tom

[JMEvensky]

Has there been any players come out to defend Watson?  Or take on Phil?

Hunter's comments were interesting about euros playing hard for their captain, and the need for US to
look more to the euro model

Would that be considered a shot at Tom

The only explanation for these guys still arguing must be that they don't know what you used to do for a living.

[Garland Bayley]

Hard to accurately cover an event if your source is a liar.

http://www.sbnation.com/golf/2014/10/9/6951403/brandel-chamblee-phil-mickelson-ryder-cup-press-conference

Kind of sad and a bit pathetic you would write this. Was Brandel in the rooms and meetings? No. Has ANY player yet to contradict what PM said? That speaks volumes more than anything in my book.

You have a hard on for Watson and that's fine. But your continued arrows at Mickelson and his fellow pros has worn thin and subsequently have warranted your opinions on this and most everything else as tripe.

Presumably one or more players have contradicted what PM said, unless you are now calling Mr. Chamblee a liar. To presume credibility of Mr. Ryder Cup eight time loser PM seems to me to be a bit incredulous. As Mr. Westwood has said, Mr. eight time loser should keep his mouth shut.

Besides, you think Keegan and Phil were paired in spite of each of them asking for another pairing?

You want to know tripe? Tripe is assuming that you know that Reed and Spieth would be killers at foursomes and thereby criticizing Watson for not playing them on Friday afternoon. I call that myopic hindsight conjecturing.

Garland

YOU are the jackass. I'd be interested in knowing if you can supply a quote of ONE member of the team's quote where they contradict PM's quote. My guess is that you can't but if you can supply one than I'll shut my pie hole.

Otherwise go back to your hole and blow yourself.

Anxiously awaiting your response.

How about we put this on equal footing. Please supply a quote of ONE member of the team where they support PM's statement that "they didn’t have any say in this Ryder Cup".

It seems everyone else besides PM is smart enough to keep out of it in public.

[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps it is instructive and revealing that, to date, neither Tom Watson nor the PGA of America have said anything that in any way contradicts or refutes what Mickelson said.  Watson attributed it to "different management styles" at the presser; in his statement, you'd have to assume that he either ignored it or was including it in his apology.

But all of that is beside the point of the thread, which is "What did Watson do wrong?"  Taken in total, his captaincy was a dumpster fire, regardless of the efficacy of what Mickelson did.  That is another issue entirely.

[Garland Bayley]

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/09/how-the-jordan-spieth-patrick.html

indicates that it was Stricker who got Tom to change the pairings and put Reed and Spieth out together. It also indicates the reasoning that they would be good in four-ball, but not in foursomes.

So it seems that the captain was listening more than many are portraying.

[jeffwarne]

Has there been any players come out to defend Watson?  Or take on Phil?

Hunter's comments were interesting about euros playing hard for their captain, and the need for US to
look more to the euro model

Would that be considered a shot at Tom

Pat,
I appreciate your insight as you have more intimate knowledge of the players/Captains than most anyone here,
and have the courage to share your opinion.
To what do you attribute the losses of the other 7 losing teams Mickelson has been on?
or for that matter , his own record in the Ryder Cup?
or taking it a step farther, his own losing record under Azinger?
Thanks

[A.G._Crockett]

In light of Chamblee's comments, this comes from Jeff Babineau's article in the current edition of Golfweek:

     "Players weren't involved in setting pairings.  Rookies Jordan Speith and Patrick Reed were told only midweek at Scotland that they'd be playing together, but they weren't clear on which format.  Speith and Matt Kuchar talked about pairing together on Wednesday, and it never came to be.  Watson said he had two strong pairings--Bubba Watson-Webb Simpson and Mickelson-Keegan Bradley--but both were abandoned after Day 1."

Each person may decide for themselves, of course, which source they consider to be more credible.  It seems significant, at least to me, that Babineau's account is in line with every other account of the proceedings, while Chamblee's version is his and his alone.  Even Tom Watson himself, at the presser or in his statement/apology, hasn't claimed he gave the players input.

[Jason Topp]

The US has a better record in foursomes compared to four balls since 1985.

http://www.rydercup.com/usa/history/2014-ryder-cup-team-records

[Pat Burke]

Has there been any players come out to defend Watson?  Or take on Phil?

Hunter's comments were interesting about euros playing hard for their captain, and the need for US to
look more to the euro model

Would that be considered a shot at Tom

Pat,
I appreciate your insight as you have more intimate knowledge of the players/Captains than most anyone here,
and have the courage to share your opinion.
To what do you attribute the losses of the other 7 losing teams Mickelson has been on?
or for that matter , his own record in the Ryder Cup?
or taking it a step farther, his own losing record under Azinger?
Thanks

Keeping in mind, I never sniffed being a Ryder Cup Player.
I'm shocked that Phil and Tiger don't have better records.  Especially when they were pretty much head and shoulders the best in the world.
As far as losses, it sure seems that the European team answers the bell better.  Every year,
it has been European players making hugely important putts at the right time. 
The Europeans have two intangibles in their favor IMO
1) It IS a tighter knit tour over all.  I played a few events, and it seemed most of us were in the same
hotels or areas.  Lot of guys at dinner together etc.  I feel there is more "us" due to the tightness in that situation
2) The European Tour is seen as a lesser tour by many.  There is a chip on their shoulder to prove that they are not.  Seve
was the beginning of "we are just as good or better", and they have built on it.

Again, Keep in mind, those are intangibles.  The reality is, for the most part, it is amazingly close over those years, and the Europeans have just played better in crunch time.  Not a surprise when in my best year, I was somewhere around 79th on the money list, and set my goals for the next year to try and improve 1/2 shot a round.  A half shot a round better that year, and I would have been in the top 30.  It doesn't take much to go from the top to the bottom.

I can tell you my personal feeling.  If I was playing in something like this, there is nobody I'd want to play more than Phil (or Tiger). 
A) nobody would expect me to win but me.  B) I believe I would be better focused in the crazed atmosphere.  I played hockey growing up, it would be so much fun to be in that atmosphere.  I think everyone gets fired up to take down Phil, Tiger, and honestly, the USA.

[jeffwarne]

Thanks Pat-great insight.
I've always felt that was the case as well, very good summary.

I've always been a Phil fan and thought he was given a bad rap by many for years.
Watson was never my cup of tea as a fan.

That said, I just haven't heard or seen any compelling reason to embrace ANY of Phil's philosophies or ideas for future success of the US Ryder Cup team-Or any reason to include him in the lineup decisions a Captain has to make-(my opinion might be different if he had a better record)
sounds like there was more than enough "help" and texts interfering with the process already.
Can you imagine sending Bobby Knight a text begging to be on the team or to play more

[Mark Bourgeois]

A general comment, not directed at any post / poster in particular but just based on a skim of the last page: do not discount the huge role luck plays. We are talking about two teams consisting of players with very closely matched levels of skill.

Had the USA not lost Johnson, Dufner, and Woods or perhaps even just one or two of them, we might not be having a debate. Who can say?

Had any number of events gone differently in 2012, really a lot of alternative scenarios to consider, just one shot here or there gone differently, we probably are not having this debate. Ditto for 2010. Who can say? Two consecutive 13.5-14.5 outcomes...and we're arguing like those results have more meaning than a coin flip?? Who can say?

Okay, sure, nobody's actually bothered to run the numbers, to do any amount of meaningful analysis, so who can say? Maybe in fact the selection criteria for the USA have suffered from specification error. Maybe Europe really is better. Who can say?

But I get it: once the battle lines are drawn and victory is the goal, no mooter wants luck in their corner, it's gotta be all black and white, 100% correlation between cause and effect in the mooter's argument. Who can say? The mooters, that's who. With 100% certainty.

Find your scapegoat, be it captains, players or the blood moon, line up your argument, draw your line in the sand...and start arguing.

[Sean_A]

Mark

In a team game with social aspects to consider, I find it hard to believe you think a computer can do the best all-round job.  You can't have it both ways and say the US needs a computer to pick to get things right when the winning Euros are closer to the US model of picking a team and running the show then they are to a computer doing the same.  I think the any model of how to run the show is too complicated for a computer...the group dynamics just can't be properly accounted for in a number crunching system.  In any case, none of this should be that important that either PGA would want humans (as much as possible - which I don't believe is a lot) taken out of any equation.   Its not like we are talking about road safety or air traffic control.  Its a sporting event and at the heart of every sporting is people.  I have a hard time with punters wanting replay reffing, so I am going to be a difficult person to convince that sporting events should look to remove the human element as much as possible. 

Ciao