What did Watson do wrong ?

[JLahrman]

Fair enough but back in the 1980s and 1990s the Euros seemed to do quite nicely in the event despite a decided lack of depth on paper.

True, but those European teams relied heavily on 6 or 7 players on Friday and Saturday and hid their weak links until Sunday. IIRC, the U.S. would traditionally win the singles matches.

Those days are over. Both teams are at least even from players 1 thru 12.

I don't disagree with you; it's not an exact comparison. However, the Euros were able to come up with a strategy that made up for their lack of strength on paper. So I don't know that it's sufficient to say that the US lost this year simply because the Euros had better players. That was certainly a contributing factor, but is there no strategy that the US can employ to mask team weaknesses? Europe certainly seemed to have a formula 20 years ago.

[Niall C]

I think there is also the F**k You factor that the GB&I team has that we don't.  Paul Casey said it several years ago when he stated that they bloody hate the U.S. team when it comes to the Ryder Cup (I'm paraphrasing here).  He took a lot of grief for that comment, but I think it's very true.

Scott

I don't think that's true and certainly hope it's not. I don't dispute he said it but really I think he was referring to the desire to win and the competitive juices that the Euros manage to get going as they go into the tournament.

I'm not sure there is that much of a discrepancy between the respective talents of the two teams and I think the difference is the amount of self belief the Euro's have built up on the back of a run of wins and the opposite effect that run has had on the US. I said before the best thing the US could do was pick some rookies who haven't had the going over that the older guys have and I think that was played out by the tremendous performance of Spieth, Reed and Walker. 

Niall

[David Stamm]

I think there is also the F**k You factor that the GB&I team has that we don't.  Paul Casey said it several years ago when he stated that they bloody hate the U.S. team when it comes to the Ryder Cup (I'm paraphrasing here).  He took a lot of grief for that comment, but I think it's very true.

I said before the best thing the US could do was pick some rookies who haven't had the going over that the older guys have and I think that was played out by the tremendous performance of Spieth, Reed and Walker. 

Niall

Unless they themselves start consistently losing, which could be a real possibility with the young guns the Europeans have.


Hazeltine will be crucial. If the U.S. loses again, it would not surprise me in the least if there is talk of rethinking the format. Something along the lines of adding countries to the U.S. side.


Hey, they did it for the GB&I side when they could not compete anymore. Why not the U.S.?

[A.G._Crockett]

In all of this, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the U.S. won the fourball and singles combined, which are formats that people actually play in the real world!

That we just got absolutely smoked in the foursomes is puzzling, but not especially important to me; it would be like an Olympic runner getting beaten at running backwards or in a three-legged sack race.

A better question might be what should be a third format to replace foursomes.  I'm NOT kidding when I say this, but a "reverse scramble" where the opponents get to pick the shot you play would make more sense. 

If not that, then surely something else. 

[A.G._Crockett]

In all of this, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the U.S. won the fourball and singles combined, which are formats that people actually play in the real world!

Huh? Europe won 2 of the 3 formats outright.

Four Balls
US 5 Europe 3

Foursomes
US 1 Europe 7

Singles
US 5.5 Europe 6.5

D Cronan,
My point was that the disparity was in a format that NOBODY plays, except every now and then in a club event.  It's not like the Euros are playing alternate shot during their practice rounds at their Tour events, right? 

All I said was that the US won the other two COMBINED, which is true.  The overall score of the competition is rather deceptive, given that the foursomes margin is bigger than the overall margin. But if you prefer, we'll call the singles and fourballs, for all intents and purposes, a draw. 

In any case, it's hard for me to get to excited about a format that is really nothing but an artifact anyway. 

Note:  I'm not especially nationalistic by nature, and swore I would root for the Euros anyway after Watson didn't pick Chris Kirk, which was just foolishly, utterly, 100% inexcusable.  I was perfectly happy watching the event unfold the way it did. 

[Garland Bayley]

In all of this, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the U.S. won the fourball and singles combined, which are formats that people actually play in the real world!

Huh? Europe won 2 of the 3 formats outright.

Four Balls
US 5 Europe 3

Foursomes
US 1 Europe 7

Singles
US 5.5 Europe 6.5

When he says combined, I think he means combine them to US 10.5, Europe 9.5.
However, his American chauvinism maintains that no one in "the real world" plays foursomes. Alternate shot is played quite often in the US, just not in his experience I suppose. He completely ignores what an important game it is across the pond (not the real world).

[Brent Hutto]

If they want a real-world format it ought to be pseudo stroke play with gimme putts, double-bogey max, two off the first tee, roll them in the fairway and drop one in the rough if you hit your tee shot OB.

[A.G._Crockett]

In all of this, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the U.S. won the fourball and singles combined, which are formats that people actually play in the real world!

Huh? Europe won 2 of the 3 formats outright.

Four Balls
US 5 Europe 3

Foursomes
US 1 Europe 7

Singles
US 5.5 Europe 6.5

When he says combined, I think he means combine them to US 10.5, Europe 9.5.
However, his American chauvinism maintains that no one in "the real world" plays foursomes. Alternate shot is played quite often in the US, just not in his experience I suppose. He completely ignores what an important game it is across the pond (not the real world).

Garland,
You, of course, have no way of knowing the truth of ANY of what you just wrote.  You are, at least, consistent in that disregard for both facts and for the opinions of others.  

I've played a lot of golf for a long time, and the ONLY time I've ever come across alternate shot formats is in club tournaments, usually only for either 6 or 9 holes at a time.  By contrast, both fourball matches and singles matches are played constantly.  Of course, you know this.

If you can provide some data to the effect that lots of people "across the pond" are playing foursomes, let me have it.  But absent that, I'm going to continue to believe that the 12 guys on the Euro side play foursomes about as often as our guys do, which is basically never, save team competitions like the Walker, Ryder, and President Cups.  Meanwhile, I'll speak with three friends at my club who are from Belgium and England and see what they say.

Maybe you can examine the USGA and R&A websites and give me a list of sanctioned foursomes competitions that they conduct.  Or just do it for your own state golf association.  Since "alternate shot is played quite often in the US", there MUST be state and national competitions, right?  Right?


Edit:  I'll amend this to say that there appear to be at least some foursomes tournaments in the UK.  Overwhelmingly, they appear to be club events, and mixed.  I'm going way out on a limb here and saying that Westwood, Rose, and the rest (not to mention Garcia!) won't be participating!

[Garland Bayley]

AG

I don't know the truth of what I wrote?

And, then you suddenly make the discovery that they do play foursome tournaments across the pond like I said. Are you discovering the truth of what you wrote? Or, are you still in denial?

[Mark Pearce]

AG

I don't know the truth of what I wrote?

And, then you suddenly make the discovery that they do play foursome tournaments across the pond like I said. Are you discovering the truth of what you wrote? Or, are you still in denial?

And he gets it wrong by saying the majority of foursomes events are mixed.  The suggestion that foursomes "isn't a real game" suggests to me a complete disconnect from real golf.  If it isn't a real game, why do the rules address it?  It may not be popular amongst the selfish play my own ball, 5 hour round golfing community that doesn't understand golf as a team sport.  Perhaps that's part of the reason Europe dominates the Ryder Cup.

[Rich Goodale]

AG

I don't know the truth of what I wrote?

And, then you suddenly make the discovery that they do play foursome tournaments across the pond like I said. Are you discovering the truth of what you wrote? Or, are you still in denial?

And he gets it wrong by saying the majority of foursomes events are mixed.  The suggestion that foursomes "isn't a real game" suggests to me a complete disconnect from real golf.  If it isn't a real game, why do the rules address it?  It may not be popular amongst the selfish play my own ball, 5 hour round golfing community that doesn't understand golf as a team sport.  Perhaps that's part of the reason Europe dominates the Ryder Cup.

Let's be honest, Mark.

The VAST majority of foursome events over here in the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands and Rockall, etc. ad infinitum (if you define an "event" as an adjudicated competition) are mixed.  Certainly a very few very posh clubs (Rye, Muirfield, etc.) play a lot of "bounce game" foursomes on a daily basis, but these games are recreational rather than competitive and serve more to get the players from the first tee to the bar in as few minutes as possible rather than identifying who are the best players on the day.

That being said, it is a fact that ELITE amateur golfers in the UKNIIMCIR do in fact play foursomes in adjudicated team competitions, and are therefore more used to the concept than the Americans, who never play this format seriously.

Rich

[Emil Weber]

The talk about foursomes being a format that shouldn't matter because no one plays it is making me really mad. Winning a foursome is not like winning a "running backwards competition" in Marathon but winning a relay team competition- a thrill of its own but an important part of track&field sports. If you are unable to see how much joy and variety a format like foursomes brings to golf i am sorry for you. What is the next thing? Abandon matchplay from golf because "no one plays it anymore"?

[Jason Thurman]

What percentage of total golf rounds globally are played in foursomes? I'd set the over/under at .75%, and take the under without a second thought.

That doesn't mean that the format shouldn't matter or should be wiped off the face of the earth, but AG isn't wrong when he says that it's rarely played.

[Peter Pallotta]

If they want a real-world format it ought to be pseudo stroke play with gimme putts, double-bogey max, two off the first tee, roll them in the fairway and drop one in the rough if you hit your tee shot OB.

Brent - if you and me controlled the golfing universe, there'd be a lot more happy golfers...and we could even quantify it!!

[Mike_Young]

IMHO here is why the Ryder Cup is doomed if things don't change with the PGA of America soon. 
The PGA of America markets the event as though these guys are out playing for their country.  Yet the actual players don't receive anything for the PGA Tour and  the Europeans share of the profits from the RC go to their tour.  The players see all of the corporate tents, all of the shopping venues and food vendors and get mad that they are providing the action and receiving nothing.  And then you have the added pressure from endorsements which come down on the agents when a guy like Mickelson sits all day on Sat.  Callaway is looking for a big day out of that and they get zilch.  The Olympic event may go the same way with these guys.  They are not into it and you can't blame them.  Soon there will be a player that says thanks but no thanks when it comes to the RC...  Come on a Mickelson could have gottne a good 2 mill for a week of appearance fees etc...it's screwed up...

[jeffwarne]

IMHO here is why the Ryder Cup is doomed if things don't change with the PGA of America soon. 
The PGA of America markets the event as though these guys are out playing for their country.  Yet the actual players don't receive anything for the PGA Tour and  the Europeans share of the profits from the RC go to their tour.  The players see all of the corporate tents, all of the shopping venues and food vendors and get mad that they are providing the action and receiving nothing.  And then you have the added pressure from endorsements which come down on the agents when a guy like Mickelson sits all day on Sat.  Callaway is looking for a big day out of that and they get zilch.  The Olympic event may go the same way with these guys.  They are not into it and you can't blame them.  Soon there will be a player that says thanks but no thanks when it comes to the RC...  Come on a Mickelson could have gottne a good 2 mill for a week of appearance fees etc...it's screwed up...

Imagine the pressure of playing for country AND money
We might never win a back nine hole

[A.G._Crockett]

I hereby apologize to all who are, were, or will be offended by my comments denigrating the foursomes format in the Ryder Cup, or its place in the world of golf. 

It is an ancient and honorable way to play the game, greatly misunderstood, underestimated, and unappreciated by provincial, chauvinistic American philistines such as myself.

I look forward to my next opportunity to play the foursomes format, whenever that might be. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I hereby apologize to all who are, were, or will be offended by my comments denigrating the foursomes format in the Ryder Cup, or its place in the world of golf.  

It is an ancient and honorable way to play the game, greatly misunderstood, underestimated, and unappreciated by provincial, chauvinistic American philistines such as myself.

I look forward to my next opportunity to play the foursomes format, whenever that might be.  

I love pure alternate shot because I understand the unselfishness of team competition and take pride in my spotless record including a victory against a much younger and more talented team with Tom Doak as my partner. People who can't or don't play alternate shot well are the same who believe golf is an individual sport. The only individual sport is auto-erotic asphyxiation.  Play away and let us who enjoy the thrill of team competition revel in the spoils of our sport.

[Bill_McBride]

I hereby apologize to all who are, were, or will be offended by my comments denigrating the foursomes format in the Ryder Cup, or its place in the world of golf. 

It is an ancient and honorable way to play the game, greatly misunderstood, underestimated, and unappreciated by provincial, chauvinistic American philistines such as myself.

I look forward to my next opportunity to play the foursomes format, whenever that might be. 

Go over to play in the Buda Cup, pure foursomes every afternoon!   Great after lunch game, very social. 

[Bob_Huntley]

IMHO here is why the Ryder Cup is doomed if things don't change with the PGA of America soon. 
The PGA of America markets the event as though these guys are out playing for their country.  Yet the actual players don't receive anything for the PGA Tour and  the Europeans share of the profits from the RC go to their tour.  The players see all of the corporate tents, all of the shopping venues and food vendors and get mad that they are providing the action and receiving nothing.  And then you have the added pressure from endorsements which come down on the agents when a guy like Mickelson sits all day on Sat.  Callaway is looking for a big day out of that and they get zilch.  The Olympic event may go the same way with these guys.  They are not into it and you can't blame them.  Soon there will be a player that says thanks but no thanks when it comes to the RC...  Come on a Mickelson could have gottne a good 2 mill for a week of appearance fees etc...it's screwed up...

Mike,

You have hit on the head. The PGA haven't a clue

Bob

[Lou_Duran]

Is it the suggestion that the American pros would play better if they were paid?  Are the player sponsors not receiving value via product placement in front of a worldwide audience for three full days and the prestige of their players making this premier event?  Might the players not be receiving bonuses and other consideration from their sponsors as a result of making the team?

What reforms does the PGA need to undertake to turn things around?  I was under the impression from the two or three similar threads that the main problem was not the selection of the captain but the poor performance of pampered, pressure adverse veteran players.

Should the PGA be more open regarding the process?  We would like for Phil to keep his opinions to himself.  Would it be good if the PGA gave its reasons why guys like Larry Nelson are not picked (a good source has told me that serious- i.e. more than quirky eccentricities- personality issues weighed against him) for the very public position of captain?

How much have the President's Cup and the FedEx series diluted from the motivation and freshness of the top players.  Maybe the veterans just need more rest.  Ok, and give them each a $500k stipend for their troubles.  But keep the "exhibition" largely unchanged.  It is compelling golf that brings a lot of interest to the game.

[John Kavanaugh]

Lou,

The players are paid by increased endorsements. These guys are a brand to themselves and Ryder Cup is an important factor. Jeff Overton may never win on tour but he will always have that. 

[Mike_Young]

Lou,
A few years back when the players were arguing "pay" etc for RC it was brought up that the same week they played the RC the La Cantera Open or something like that was being played.   The PGA of America made like $35 million and gave none to the players or to charity.  Meanwhile the LaCantera gave around 2 mill to charity the same week.  There is a disconnect between the players and the PGA of America and it is rarely discussed.  $500,000 stipend is not quite enough for such an event.  The agents get involved and see the money being made and it goes from there....

[Niall C]

.

[Ronald Montesano]

This may all have been said/written, but I've neither time nor eyes to read through 4.5 pages of your brilliance, compadres mios.

1. Said "Yes." ~~ Why he said yes in the first place is beyond me. Like taking points off the board. No one remembers 1993 if he loses in 2014. Oops.

2. Got stuck in a year when no ones outside the automatic qualifiers were playing well. ~~ Horschel hadn't become Horschel, Haas-meh, Kirk had one win and didn't seem to care whether he made the team or not.

3. Picked Simpson. ~~ I'm a Wake guy and still couldn't understand this one: you take a guy who begs you over the phone, who then says "that's too early for me" to Bubba.

4. Bubba. ~~ Remember when Bubba lost the PGA at Whistling Straits to Kaymer after Dustingate, and all that Bubba cared about was making the Ryder Cup team? That Bubba is long gone.

5. Got stuck in a year when his veteran players offered no tacit leadership. ~~ Phil? Yut. Furyk? Hasn't closed anything but a door in years. Stricker? Oh, right, he's a captain's assistant-captain pick.

6. Picked old guys like himself as assistants, to make his own self feel comfortable.

7. Didn't defer to Larry Nelson (see my trilogy on the Larry Nelson curse.)

8. Didn't ask Mrs. Pavin to pick the uniforms (yaaah, I'm running out of funny stuff to say.)

9. Didn't ask Ben Crenshaw to pick the Sunday shirts (Almost completely on empty.)

10. Didn't ask Lynn S. for a copy of anything John Wooden ever wrote or said about coaching.