What did Watson do wrong ?

[jeffwarne]

For the record, I do not mean to take anything away from the Euros win, or to seem to be suggesting that Watson cost the US the Cup.  I thought Europe had the clearly better team coming in, and they played that way.

But the thread is "What did Watson do wrong?", not "Did Watson cost the US the Ryder Cup?"  I started with a bad attitude because I coached against Chris Kirk throughout his high school golf career, and the first day of the competition sent me over the edge.  Take just three decisions.

Reed and Speith, both in their 20's, win 5 and 4 and sit out the afternoon foursomes.  Meanwhile Mickelson, an arthritic 40 something with something like a 2-15-4 foursomes record, plays 36 holes in cold weather.  Then in the Saturday four ball, Mickelson and Bradley, the first US team with a 4-0 four ball record in a couple of decades, sit out.  That did it for me.

I was rooting for the Euros on Sunday.  

AG,
agreed on your assessment of what he did wrong.
Kirk should've been picked for sure, and I said as much at the time.
Reed and Spieth should've played foursomes rather than Mickelson/Bradley, and those two should've played 4 balls Saturday.
While I also agree Watson could've said nothing when given the replica tropy, I must say that was a pretty stupid gift to give a crusty competive SOB like Watson BEFORE the outcome-especially when they had just fallen further behind.
And of course Mickelson should've ducked the press conference question.
For those wo have decided it's NOT an exhibition, what exactly is it?
and how do we get back to acting with the class, sportsmanship, and dignity that the event represented many years ago.

and finally, Pat has it right-well for a moron
Well done by McGinley and the Euros

[Scott McWethy]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

[Ben Sims]

Sports is a great microcosm of life in that moral victories are few. Binary results--wins and losses--define lives. Unfortunately, frequently I see a  society unwilling to attribute a negative result to lack of execution. Usually it's some other excuse that involves officiating, lack of clear direction, poor coaching, etc. See the current issues around the San Francisco 49ers for an example of players not liking a coach. Tom Watson said the truth.

Unfortunately, you can't do that. And he should've known as much. Good caddies have an almost mythical ability to surreptitiously remind their players of a prior poor result, whilst keeping their focus on the positive result for the next shot. That is Watson's job as the arguably worthless coach of the Ryder cup team.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

[Will Spivey]

I understand the sentiment "golf is an individual sport, these guys are pros, etc.," but the more I think about this the more I believe the captain CAN make a big difference.  The GD linked earlier was a great look into what can be done to build a team from individual athletes.

I also wonder what can be learned from the Team USA basketball experience?  Here you have a team of All Stars, all multimillionaires, who are used to having their way at nearly all times with their teams.  Hell, only 5 of them can start a game, the rest start on the pine, which for these guys probably hasn't ever happened in their entire lives. 

Here's a great story from the Wall Street Journal discussing what Coach K did to "motivate" these guys to play for their country:  http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-coach-k-motivates-usa-basketball-1410474885.

What should the next captain learn from Coach K?

Pat, per my earlier post, are these guys any less "professional athletes" than their NBA brethren?  Clearly, the Euros played better (and had better players), but Team USA got waxed.  Do you not believe, particularly in the case of highly spoiled, multi-millionaire, money motivated professional athletes, that a good/great coach can make a difference? 

I don't think any level of "leadership" would have resulted in the USA winning this past Ryder Cup, but perhaps better leadership could have made it competitive.

[Scott McWethy]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Yes, Pat I'm serious.  What makes you think a top athlete in the world doesn't need inspiration from time to time and to also help rally the troops.  Do you think these golfers are immune to that.  Did you see the press conference for the Americans afterwards.  Did they look like the highly successful best golfers in the world to you.  These full grown men looked battered, bruised, and completely deflated.
Pat, the bottom line is that a good captain is an essential part to a Ryder Cup TEAM.  I like the fact that we can share our opinions on this site even though we disagree.  The only real difference I see between your view and my view on this, is that mine is correct.  If captains or coaches for that matter aren't an essential part of a team, then what am I missing here.
By the way, anyone that quotes John McEnroe can't be taken seriously.      

[Jon Wiggett]

The USA picks more Faldo characters than Azinger ones, and that's why. Maybe there are fewer inspiring captain choices in the new world, just as there were few captain's picks options.

Ronald,

if the US team were made up of Faldos they would win hands down as Faldo had a superb Ryder Cup record.

Jon

[Paul Gray]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players.  

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Pat,

Whilst I have genuine sympathy for your position, the fact that you felt obligated to write 'THEIR COUNTRY' is somewhat indicative of why your team fails. The Europeans are representing a proud golfing continent which for many years was made to feel like the poor relation. We invented the game and had it smugly wiped in our face every two years. The non-Brits in the European team get that better than anyone, being the cavalry and all that. Remember that it took a Spaniard and a Brit together to begin the turnaround. Despite the emotion, ultimately though they are playing for a golfing continent, not for a political cultural and/or empire. Your boys are struggling to represent an all encompassing philosophy which is not the power it once was, but I'm sure you don't need me, yet again, to point out the staggering similarities between the death of your own empire and that of the British. There are enough papers written on the subject by people far more learned than I.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Pat,

Whilst I have genuine sympathy for your position, the fact that you felt obligated to write 'THEIR COUNTRY' is somewhat indicative of why your team fails. The Europeans aren't representing a proud golfing continent which for many years was made to feel like the poor relation. We invented the game and had it smugly wiped in our face every two years. The non-Brits in the European team get that better than anyone, being the cavalry and all that. Remember that it took a Spaniard and a Brit together to begin the turnaround. Despite the emotion, ultimately though they are playing for a golfing continent, not for a political cultural and/or empire. Your boys are struggling to represent an all encompassing philosophy which is not the power it once was, but I'm sure you don't need me, yet again, to point out the staggering similarities between the death of your own empire and that of the British. There are enough papers written on the subject by people far more learned than I.

Or, alternatively, the European team has had better players and captains.  Sheesh...

[Paul Gray]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Pat,

Whilst I have genuine sympathy for your position, the fact that you felt obligated to write 'THEIR COUNTRY' is somewhat indicative of why your team fails. The Europeans aren't representing a proud golfing continent which for many years was made to feel like the poor relation. We invented the game and had it smugly wiped in our face every two years. The non-Brits in the European team get that better than anyone, being the cavalry and all that. Remember that it took a Spaniard and a Brit together to begin the turnaround. Despite the emotion, ultimately though they are playing for a golfing continent, not for a political cultural and/or empire. Your boys are struggling to represent an all encompassing philosophy which is not the power it once was, but I'm sure you don't need me, yet again, to point out the staggering similarities between the death of your own empire and that of the British. There are enough papers written on the subject by people far more learned than I.

Or, alternatively, the European team has had better players and captains.  Sheesh...

I believe the current rankings somewhat contradict that assertion. Nonetheless, I don't mean to dismiss the fact that ultimately it's about 12 golf swinfs against another 12 golf swings. I'm merely pointing out that there are other factors at work. Ultimately, humans are not robots and don't perform as such. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Pat,

Whilst I have genuine sympathy for your position, the fact that you felt obligated to write 'THEIR COUNTRY' is somewhat indicative of why your team fails. The Europeans aren't representing a proud golfing continent which for many years was made to feel like the poor relation. We invented the game and had it smugly wiped in our face every two years. The non-Brits in the European team get that better than anyone, being the cavalry and all that. Remember that it took a Spaniard and a Brit together to begin the turnaround. Despite the emotion, ultimately though they are playing for a golfing continent, not for a political cultural and/or empire. Your boys are struggling to represent an all encompassing philosophy which is not the power it once was, but I'm sure you don't need me, yet again, to point out the staggering similarities between the death of your own empire and that of the British. There are enough papers written on the subject by people far more learned than I.

Or, alternatively, the European team has had better players and captains.  Sheesh...

I believe the current rankings somewhat contradict that assertion. Nonetheless, I don't mean to dismiss the fact that ultimately it's about 12 golf swinfs against another 12 golf swings. I'm merely pointing out that there are other factors at work. Ultimately, humans are not robots and don't perform as such. 

You believe wrong about the current rankings, and that's with what many believe to be a (slight) bias in the ranking points toward play in the US.

Keep it simple.  The thread is about what Watson did wrong.  I don't think he represented the wrong failed empire.  I think he made poor captain's picks, and even worse lineup decisions.  I do NOT believe that cost the US the Ryder Cup, but that's not what the thread is about, either.

I won't bother to look it up again, but Mickelson's foursomes record is absurdly bad, something in the neighborhood of 2-15-4.  His four ball record, though, is pretty good, and VERY good with Keegan Bradley.  So what would YOU have done with him on Friday and Saturday?

[Paul Gray]

AG,

OK, so the ranking bit I may have jumped the gun with. As for keeping it simple, although I fail to see why you feels that's so important, nothing could be more simple than pointing out that the situation does not need a scapegoat. It's Medina all over again. Regardless of the varying talents of the two sides, the American's did not play up to their potential. To simply blame this Mickelson or that Watson without considering the underlying reasons isn't going to get you anywhere.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,

OK, so the ranking bit I may have jumped the gun with. As for keeping it simple, although I fail to see why you feels that's so important, nothing could be more simple than pointing out that the situation does not need a scapegoat. It's Medina all over again. Regardless of the varying talents of the two sides, the American's did not pay up to their potential. To simply blame this Mickelson or that Watson without considering the underlying reasons isn't going to get you anywhere.

Paul,
Keep it simple.  The thread title is "What did Watson do wrong?"  I'm not looking for a scapegoat, be it Mickelson or Watson.

But answer my question, ok?  YOU are the US captain, and you've got an arthritic 44 yr old with a comically bad record in foursomes and a very good record in four balls, especially with his current partner.  You watch him win in a morning four ball, while spraying the ball all over creation.  Meanwhile, a team of two 20 somethings demolishes their opponents 5-4 in the morning.

Which team goes 36 holes and plays the afternoon foursomes, and which one sits out?  The next morning, do you play Mickelson and Bradley, with an undefeated four ball record, in the morning foursomes?

These aren't hard questions, and it isn't looking for a scapegoat to examine what Watson did and didn't do critically.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I won't bother to look it up again, but Mickelson's foursomes record is absurdly bad, something in the neighborhood of 2-15-4.  His four ball record, though, is pretty good, and VERY good with Keegan Bradley.  So what would YOU have done with him on Friday and Saturday?

A.G., not trying to catch you in a gotcha, just trying to buttress my point, but in another post somewhere you mention it's impossible to quantify the impact of the captain on the outcome, and I think John Kirk said there's insufficient data. To an extent you are both correct but that's mainly because no one has bothered to actually run the numbers using available data. In your quote above is a simple yet apparently meaningful statistic.

I suspect there is a meaningful amount of luck involved when the world's best golfers play the world's best golfers, perhaps even likely so much that no decisions have an impact on the outcome -- even seemingly "terrible" decisions like Watson's that you reference -- at least not before the fact and in a predictable way, and *on the margin*. (What is missing from a lot of these "pro-captain" arguments is that no one shows us how the outcome would have been different had Watson made this or that decision differently. People just assert or imply things as though they are fact, but they are far from fact.)

An analysis of the role / magnitude of luck can be done. I am not sure many will like what that probably says, that the captain matters little. BUT: there likely is some proportion of the outcome influenced by the decisions. Even if it's a small part, use data and analysis to get the part you can control correct. A machine can / should do that, leaving the captains to the all-important tasks of babysitting and sweater knitting.

[Paul Gray]

AG,

OK, like I said, I'm not disputing the mistakes. He backed experience where youth may well have prevailed on the Friday afternoon but having been there I would equally argue that Sergio and Rory getting a point was about as likely as hell freezing over. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I will say this: Watson just wasn't the presence I expected him to be. It's all well and good to be respectful and Watson does that in Scotland with aplomb. It's OK however to be determined to win and I didn't see a jot of that from him. Think back and there was talk for quite a while about how Watson was a good pick as captain for a US team in Scotland because he was a popular figure over here. Sorry, but that sounds suspiciously like appeasing the opposition. I wasn't aware the aim of the game was to charm the Ryder Cup out of European hands. Now, I could bang on about how this has much to do with stumbling tentatively into a new role in the world but no doubt I'd only be shouted down for doing so. 

[Garland Bayley]

...  Meanwhile Mickelson, an arthritic 40 something with something like a 2-15-4 foursomes record, plays 36 holes in cold weather.  ...

This analysis has no meaning. If a more arthritic 60 something that is clinically obese can play his best golf in the second 18 of the day on steep terrain while climbing dunes to search for opponents balls, then Phil has no excuse.

People knowledgeable about sport know that adrenaline and competitive spirit make such minor problems such as this disappear during competition.

[A.G._Crockett]

I owe Mickelson an apology; his foursomes record is better than I stated.  It's 4-8-2 in the Ryder Cup if I'm counting correctly.  My mistake.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I understand the sentiment "golf is an individual sport, these guys are pros, etc.," but the more I think about this the more I believe the captain CAN make a big difference.  The GD linked earlier was a great look into what can be done to build a team from individual athletes.

I also wonder what can be learned from the Team USA basketball experience?  Here you have a team of All Stars, all multimillionaires, who are used to having their way at nearly all times with their teams.  Hell, only 5 of them can start a game, the rest start on the pine, which for these guys probably hasn't ever happened in their entire lives. 

Here's a great story from the Wall Street Journal discussing what Coach K did to "motivate" these guys to play for their country:  http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-coach-k-motivates-usa-basketball-1410474885.

What should the next captain learn from Coach K?

Pat, per my earlier post, are these guys any less "professional athletes" than their NBA brethren? 

Yes, in the sense that their NBA brethren are "specialists.
Guard, forwards, centers.
And, you can break that down further.
Point Guard, shooting guard, power forward, etc. etc..

Pro Golfers have to do it all by themselves without assistance from other members of their team.

Clearly, the Euros played better (and had better players), but Team USA got waxed. 

You must have missed the part about 70 birdies to 125 birdies

Do you not believe, particularly in the case of highly spoiled, multi-millionaire, money motivated professional athletes, that a good/great coach can make a difference? 

No, I don't believe that a coach, good/great or poor can change the game of a PGA Tour Pro

I don't think any level of "leadership" would have resulted in the USA winning this past Ryder Cup, but perhaps better leadership could have made it competitive.

HOW ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players. 

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Yes, Pat I'm serious.  What makes you think a top athlete in the world doesn't need inspiration from time to time and to also help rally the troops.

Scott, if you're serious, you must be deranged and bordering on the moron category.

Now a PGA Tour Pro needs "inspiriation" in order to play his best in the Ryder Cup ?  ?  ?

He needs help to play his best ?  To rally ?  

Do you think these golfers are immune to that.

If they're not, a Knute Rockne pep talk ain't gonna fix it.  

Did you see the press conference for the Americans afterwards.  
Did they look like the highly successful best golfers in the world to you.  

They LOST.
Did you expect them to by bouyant, vivacious, effusive and over joyed ?

These full grown men looked battered, bruised, and completely deflated.

Repeat.
They LOST.
They got outplayed.
70 birdies to 125 birdies.  What does that number alone tell you ?

Pat, the bottom line is that a good captain is an essential part to a Ryder Cup TEAM.

Baloney.
What proof do you have of that.
Did Europe/UK have bad captains in all the years they lost ?  

I like the fact that we can share our opinions on this site even though we disagree.  
The only real difference I see between your view and my view on this, is that mine is correct.

Only in your mind. 

If captains or coaches for that matter aren't an essential part of a team, then what am I missing here.

That it's the players, on the field of play that determine the outcome, not the "team captain"

By the way, anyone that quotes John McEnroe can't be taken seriously.

Have you seen the women that John McEnroe dated ?
That's some serious talent.     

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Whilst I have genuine sympathy for your position, the fact that you felt obligated to write 'THEIR COUNTRY' is somewhat indicative of why your team fails.

I wasn't obligated, I just made a statement of fact.
It wasn't like they were playing for their block party team.
Someone stated that they needed to be motivated and I felt that if you can't be motivated when playing for your country, you don't belong in the competition.

The Europeans aren't representing a proud golfing continent which for many years was made to feel like the poor relation.

By whom ?


We invented the game and had it smugly wiped in our face every two years.

That's not true at all.
The competition took a turn for the worse at TCC.
In addition it went from a healthy, gentlemenly competition to an overly commercialized circus.

The non-Brits in the European team get that better than anyone, being the cavalry and all that.

Remember that it took a Spaniard and a Brit together to begin the turnaround.

I don't see the relevance, especially since they all live in Orlando, Florida

Despite the emotion, ultimately though they are playing for a golfing continent, not for a political cultural and/or empire.

They live in Orlando, but are playing for THEIR team.

Your boys are struggling to represent an all encompassing philosophy which is not the power it once was, but I'm sure you don't need me, yet again, to point out the staggering similarities between the death of your own empire and that of the British.

For a response, I refer you to Samuel Clemens

There are enough papers written on the subject by people far more learned than I.

You'll have to refer me to those papers that equate the the success of the Ryder Cup team to the state of the respective Unions.

Learned or pedantic ?

[Rich Goodale]

In addition it went from a healthy, gentlemenly competition to an overly commercialized circus.

Pat

Was it a healthy, gentelmanly competition in 1967 when Ben Hogan dissed the entire opposing team in his opening speech?

http://www.pgamediaguide.com/rydercup_detail.cfm?tourn_name_id=9&dateid=1967&tournament_id=718&player_id=766

Rich

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Whilst I have genuine sympathy for your position, the fact that you felt obligated to write 'THEIR COUNTRY' is somewhat indicative of why your team fails.

I wasn't obligated, I just made a statement of fact.
It wasn't like they were playing for their block party team.
Someone stated that they needed to be motivated and I felt that if you can't be motivated when playing for your country, you don't belong in the competition.

The Europeans are representing a proud golfing continent which for many years was made to feel like the poor relation.

By whom ?


We invented the game and had it smugly wiped in our face every two years.

That's not true at all.
The competition took a turn for the worse at TCC.
In addition it went from a healthy, gentlemenly competition to an overly commercialized circus.

The non-Brits in the European team get that better than anyone, being the cavalry and all that.

Remember that it took a Spaniard and a Brit together to begin the turnaround.

I don't see the relevance, especially since they all live in Orlando, Florida

Despite the emotion, ultimately though they are playing for a golfing continent, not for a political cultural and/or empire.

They live in Orlando, but are playing for THEIR team.

Your boys are struggling to represent an all encompassing philosophy which is not the power it once was, but I'm sure you don't need me, yet again, to point out the staggering similarities between the death of your own empire and that of the British.

For a response, I refer you to Samuel Clemens

There are enough papers written on the subject by people far more learned than I.

You'll have to refer me to those papers that equate the the success of the Ryder Cup team to the state of the respective Unions.

Learned or pedantic ?

Seve and Jacklin are both currently living in Florida? Hell of a lot of Spaniards are going to be fascinated to hear this.

Never mind.

[Scott McWethy]

Tony,

It's different because these are PGA TOUR PROS who are playing individual matches.

There's no "game plan", no half time adjustment, you go out and play the golf course, you try to post the lowest score possible on each hole and a captain can neither alter that outcome or the outcome produced by your opponent.

This is a very simple issue.

The European team outplayed the American team and people are whining and looking for a scapegoat instead of praising the European team on their play

I believe the respective number of birdies was something like 125 to 70.

If that doesn't make you have a "light bulb" moment nothing will.

Everyone should stop whining and looking for excuses and congratulate the European team on an outstanding performance.

End of rant  

Pat, just disagree with you on this.  A captain does have an impact on his players performances.  The best captains / coaches can inspire their players, or bring in others to help inspire, to go out and do great things.  I know this is off topic from what the thread was about, but I believe the Ryder Cup is more of a team effort.  I look at it as a 12 man team and I feel you look at it as 12 individual players.  

Scott,

Are you serious ?

These are full grown, highly succesful men who just happen to be the best golfers in the world, playing for THEIR COUNTRY.

And you think that they need to be "inspired" ?

That they need to be cajoled to "go out there and do great things"

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious"

Yes, Pat I'm serious.  What makes you think a top athlete in the world doesn't need inspiration from time to time and to also help rally the troops.

Scott, if you're serious, you must be deranged and bordering on the moron category.

Now a PGA Tour Pro needs "inspiriation" in order to play his best in the Ryder Cup ?  ?  ?

He needs help to play his best ?  To rally ?  

Do you think these golfers are immune to that.

If they're not, a Knute Rockne pep talk ain't gonna fix it.  

Did you see the press conference for the Americans afterwards.  
Did they look like the highly successful best golfers in the world to you.  

They LOST.
Did you expect them to by bouyant, vivacious, effusive and over joyed ?

These full grown men looked battered, bruised, and completely deflated.

Repeat.
They LOST.
They got outplayed.
70 birdies to 125 birdies.  What does that number alone tell you ?

Pat, the bottom line is that a good captain is an essential part to a Ryder Cup TEAM.

Baloney.
What proof do you have of that.
Did Europe/UK have bad captains in all the years they lost ?  

I like the fact that we can share our opinions on this site even though we disagree.  
The only real difference I see between your view and my view on this, is that mine is correct.

Only in your mind.

If captains or coaches for that matter aren't an essential part of a team, then what am I missing here.

That it's the players, on the field of play that determine the outcome, not the "team captain"

By the way, anyone that quotes John McEnroe can't be taken seriously.

Have you seen the women that John McEnroe dated ?
That's some serious talent.      

Pat, I stand corrected.  Captains are useless when it comes to the Ryder Cup, no matter if they win or lose.  For that matter, so are coaches in every sport.  These teams should just captain themselves.  What's the point, it's just an X's and O's thing and the players can handle that.  I know the PGA is going to sit down and take a hard look at what needs to change in the future.  Maybe a captainless team will be an option.

I would like to quote the great Knute Rockne though:  "I've got nothing for you guys.  Just go out and play your best".

Lastly, the girls that John McEnroe dated!  I see women walk by me every day that are far more beautiful that the women John McEnroe dated.  I could understand if you threw out the women that George Clooney dated, or Brad Pitt, Jimmy Connors, or thousands of other men, but John McEnroe.  I actually threw up in my mouth a little bit when I read that comment.  

I do appreciate you adding me to the "Mucci's morons" club.  I am humbled.  All in good fun Pat.
    

[John Kirk]

I wonder if those of us, who over the course of this thread, have tended to be more sympathetic to Tom Watson, and less supportive of the concept that a golf captain makes a significant difference, are "lone wolf" types who work best as individual contributors, and would make less successful captains and/or leaders. 

On his website, Geoff Shackelford posted a (very unscientific) graph which showed that more egotistic, detached players tended to make poor Ryder Cup captains.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/ryder-cup/2014/john-barton-ryder-cup-captains-scale-2014-2

The graph is baloney; it also makes a compelling case that British men are more passionate than American men.  But his point is probably right.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

To all those who think a Captain has no significant role in the Ryder Cup. I posted this on Geoff Shackelford's blog:
Vince Lombardi quotes. Here is what he said about teamwork:
Teamwork
“The achievements of an organization are the results of the combined effort of each individual.”
“People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society.”
“Individual commitment to a group effort – that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work.”

Clearly, the Euros have accomplished this over recent years in making an individual sport a team sport.. Azinger did too.Players have to be invested in the team by their Coach, Manager or Captain. You just can't say anymore : "Win one for the Gipper" It doesn't work in today's world.

By the way, what's the Team USA's record in foursomes over the past 10 Ryder Cups? I think the USA's record is not very good as compared to singles and fourball.

Speaking of foursomes:

Here's  an old golf joke....

A husband reluctantly agreed to play in the couples' alternate shot tournament at his club.

He teed off on the first hole, a par four, and blistered a drive 300 yards down the middle of the fairway.

Upon reaching the ball, the husband said to his wife, "Just hit it toward the green, anywhere around there will be fine."

The wife proceeded to shank the ball deep into the woods.

Undaunted, the husband said, "That's OK, Sweetheart" and spent the full five minutes looking for the ball. He found it just in time, but in a horrible position. He played the shot of his life to get the ball within two feet of the hole. He told his wife to knock the ball in.

His wife then proceeded to take her putter out and knock the ball off the green and into a bunker.

Still maintaining composure, the husband summoned all of his skill and holed the shot from the bunker.

He took the ball out of the hole and while walking off the green, put his arm around his wife and calmly said, "Honey, that was a bogey five and that's OK, but I think we can do better on the next hole."

To which she replied, "Listen , don't bitch at me, only 2 of those 5 shots were mine."