The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)

[Terry Lavin]

Am I wrong or does the mounding removal also give you a great view of a parking lot and an apartment complex?  Looks like a mixed blessing at best from the photos.

[PCCraig]

Am I wrong or does the mounding removal also give you a great view of a parking lot and an apartment complex?  Looks like a mixed blessing at best from the photos.

Ha - thanks, Terry.

To be fair, I took the photos this week in late October in Minnesota. I'm guessing the view will be significantly better when there are leaves on the trees and a blue sky.

You're not wrong about the parking lot view. However, I think the "apartment complex" you're referring to is, unfortunately, our clubhouse. In the name of forward progress, the club tour down the original Cass Gilbert designed beauty of a clubhouse (picture is below) in the 1960's and built the current structure in what was then a modern style. It doesn't look like much from outside but it fits the membership's needs OK and has a nice bar.

[Dan Kelly]

In the name of forward progress, the club tour down the original Cass Gilbert designed beauty of a clubhouse (picture is below) in the 1960's and built the current structure in what was then a modern style.

So much for progress -- forward or otherwise.


I wonder how much thought was given to the possibility of saving some of Mr. Gilbert's work, via a renovation.


Pat (or anyone) --


Did that porch face the golf course or the river (or both)?

[PCCraig]

In the name of forward progress, the club tour down the original Cass Gilbert designed beauty of a clubhouse (picture is below) in the 1960's and built the current structure in what was then a modern style.

So much for progress -- forward or otherwise.

I wonder how much thought was given to the possibility of saving some of Mr. Gilbert's work, via a renovation.

Pat (or anyone) --

Did that porch face the golf course or the river (or both)?

Dan,


Unfortunately I don't think any thought was given to saving any of Cass Gilbert's work. Much like the classic golf courses we love, the 1950's and 1960's wasn't a time when members cared much for architectural heritage. In the archives and club history, there is a fair amount of information on the old and new clubhouse. The old one had a main clubhouse, which based on the photos I've seen of the interior looked and felt like an old mansion on Summit Ave (wood work, big fireplaces, etc.). The porch wrapped around the entire clubhouse and there was a separate locker room building as well as a tennis building to the north.


Supposedly, in the 1950's and facing the threat of suburban flight, the Club made an effort to morph from an "old-boys club" to a "family" club by building a new "state of the art" clubhouse with a big pool off the back. While the pool and tennis has since been reconstructed and moved to the north side of the property, the clubhouse from the 1950's/1960's remains.



Of course, I wish they hadn't torn the original clubhouse down. And while I don't think the current clubhouse is all that attractive from the outside (and the only view of the river/skyline is from the banquet room), it serves everyone fine. The bar is usually packed, there is a lively "card" room, and the locker room has some cool old wire lockers and showers with solid pressure.

[Doug Siebert]

That's a real shame about tearing down the old clubhouse, but better to replace the clubhouse with an inferior one as opposed to replacing a bunch of holes with inferior ones.

When I arrived there I immediately knew it was built during the 50s or 60s - it just has that look.  Inside too...it is clean and well maintained, but definitely looks dated.

[Terry Lavin]

Pat,

No offense intended. It was a quick look. The rest of the photos are a more positive "reflection" of your great club.

[Jeff Shelman]

I think the work done at T&C over the past several years has been very good. All of the changes seem to make really good sense.


The progress is probably slower than Pat and Neil would like, but the car is moving in the right direction.

[Joe Zucker]

Thanks, Dan.

I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.

Correct, as far as I know it will be used as an additional tee box.  Not a fan?

Nice change on 3. Now, as for the green screen....

Thanks. I am in 1000% agreement on the green screen!

I'm of two minds on the new tee on 18.  On one hand I really like the current hole.  It's a shortish iron into a fairly steep back to front green.  The way the hole currently sits, it's more of a par/bogey hole.  But with a new tee that looks down to the green and plays at more of a wedge distance could be pretty fun.  Especially in a match play setting, which the course is already well suited for.


I can imagine a match coming to 18 with a player 1 down, if he has the honor he could choose to play the short tee and go for birdie.  As a wedge par 3 it may not be the most interesting hole hole in the world, but it certainly suits the fun nature of the course, in my opinion.

[Dan Kelly]

I can imagine a match coming to 18 with a player 1 down, if he has the honor he could choose to play the short tee and go for birdie.  As a wedge par 3 it may not be the most interesting hole hole in the world, but it certainly suits the fun nature of the course, in my opinion.

Joe --


I wasn't there to see it, but reports had you missing an ace on that hole by inches in the Midwest Mashie. That sounds like fun to me!


I'm not disagreeing with you or disliking the new tee (I never like or dislike something till I've played it), and perhaps Pat can tell me I'm wrong, but the current 18 at Town & Country rarely has felt like a "shortish" hole to me. It's usually into a headwind or a head-crosswind. Seems to me the least club I've ever hit there, in five or six playings, has been a 7-iron. (Of course, your near-ace was probably an 8 or 9.)


My guess: From the top tee, many more halves with par would result -- whereas from the current tee, par is always a very satisfying result, and very often a winning one.


But of course I'm just guessing. The proof will be in the putting!


Dan

[Joe Zucker]

I can imagine a match coming to 18 with a player 1 down, if he has the honor he could choose to play the short tee and go for birdie.  As a wedge par 3 it may not be the most interesting hole hole in the world, but it certainly suits the fun nature of the course, in my opinion.

But of course I'm just guessing. The proof will be in the putting!


Dan

I think I agree with everything you put out there Dan.  Unfortunately, it was not me who almost made the ace.  I came up short with a 7 there on my lone playing and it was into a good wind.


I agree with your comment that a short 18 might yield more par-par halves, but I like the idea of tempting a player into thinking he is better than he is.  With a front pin and the typical headwind, I would bet a lot of wedges would end up in those front traps for the greedy golfer.  From what I can see in the pictures, the new tee creates an option (that may not be more interesting/better) without disrupting an already good hole. Pat and the other members will have to tell us how it plays out.

[Dan Kelly]

Unfortunately, it was not me who almost made the ace.  I came up short with a 7 there on my lone playing and it was into a good wind.

Apologies to whoever it was, then!


Who almost aced 18 in the Mashie? Stand up and be applauded!

[Joe Lynch]

Dan,

I believe it was me who almost had the ace on 18.  I hit a 6 iron flush into a stiff head wind.  It was pretty cool to have the gallery watching and applauding as I walked up to the green.  I really enjoyed my first mashie and look forward to attending future events.  Everyone involved did a wonderful job with planning and execution and i couldn't have asked for a better three days of competitive golf.  Feel free to PM me if anyone is interested in playing Southview later this fall or early next year. 

Joe Lynch

[Jeff_Mingay]

Guys,


I just glanced over this thread .. the new tee at the 18th is a forward and/or optional tee. We had to get rid of some dirt, and opportunity to create that tee with said material was too obvious. There's a plan on the table to improve the existing tees, more or less in their current locations but shifting them slightly left, away from the adjacent 10th fairway. Hopefully this might happen next year. From those tees, the 18th will probably get a bit longer from the back markers.


The new tee is a brilliant tee (fun, with a beautiful view) for those golfers who play the forward markers at T&C.


And, yes: I've also advised the club that the big, obnoxious evergreen hedges behind the 3rd and 18th greens should be removed

[PCCraig]

Joe, Dan, Jeff Shelman, Jeff Mingay,


Thanks for posting your thoughts above. Sorry I haven't had time to check GCA since last week.


So far, in the roughly two weeks since Jeff's visit, I have heard nothing but great things regarding the work done around the 17th green and the new tee on 18. The new vistas from the 17th green are fairly dramatic in person (as compared to in my poor photos) and if anything most members want to take down an additional 7-10 trees further along the ridge so that a full view of downtown Minneapolis is (re)created.


Personally, I really like the new tee on #18. To me, it reminds me of the drop tee shot on the par-3 12th at Shoreacres. It's not a difficult shot, just a half-wedge or full wedge for most, but it's pretty fun and while a good swing gives you a chance at a birdie, a poor swing can result in a bogey.


From the existing tees, 18 is hardly my favorite hole on the course by any means. The tee shot is fairly claustrophobic, and the shot itself is fairly straightforward. The evergreen screen behind the hole is horrible and needs to be removed...currently it sits just a few feet off the back of the putting surface and it creates a goofy hazard behind the green. So while the hole is fun to play in match play as it's a par-3 where a lot could and does happen, I think the hole could be less penal and could use a dash of some "fun" (as in the new high tee box) with some minor tweaks.

[Dan Kelly]

Got (and eagerly accepted) a fine opportunity to end (?) my season yesterday, at Town & Country (where, at the 3rd tee, I ran into Messrs. Craig and Davis, who were playing 9).


Just a couple of notes:


1. Having never played T&C late in the year, I had no idea that only a few unnecessary trees stand in the way of getting GREAT views of downtown Minneapolis throughout the year from the 2nd tee and the 2nd green -- even better views than are available on No. 9.


2. I like the new tee on No. 18 -- particularly if it used as an alternate tee along with the current tee. The new tee is not so high up as I had thought. It's still a drop-shot 3, but not a Bud Chapmanesque cliff shot.

[PCCraig]

Got (and eagerly accepted) a fine opportunity to end (?) my season yesterday, at Town & Country (where, at the 3rd tee, I ran into Messrs. Craig and Davis, who were playing 9).

Just a couple of notes:

1. Having never played T&C late in the year, I had no idea that only a few unnecessary trees stand in the way of getting GREAT views of downtown Minneapolis throughout the year from the 2nd tee and the 2nd green -- even better views than are available on No. 9.

2. I like the new tee on No. 18 -- particularly if it used as an alternate tee along with the current tee. The new tee is not so high up as I had thought. It's still a drop-shot 3, but not a Bud Chapmanesque cliff shot.

Dan,

Nice running into you yesterday out at T&C. Sorry we never had a good chance to chat. Hopefully you enjoyed your round and the course. The course closed after yesterday for the season, and overall it's been a nice long golf season here in Minnesota and at T&C.

I've hit a shot off of the dirt tee on #18 a couple of times now this fall, and I think it's a fun shot. It's certainly more scenic than the existing tee and even though it's only a 110-120 yard shot, it's a difficult one to judge given there isn't really anywhere to miss where you don't leave yourself a tough up and down. As Jeff described above, I hope he gets the chance to rebuild the rest of the tees on #18 next year (as well as restore/renovate the green and it's surrounds).

I've heard nothing but positive things regarding Jeff's recent work on #17/#18 and I'm told the membership really likes it.

I agree, a little tree removal on #2 would go a long way to opening up some terrific views looking west toward Minneapolis. This time of year, when all of the leaves have fallen off the trees, you can really see the long vistas and better internal views of the course that would be possible with significant tree removal.

While not necessarily on the same level of scenic views, the view west from the top plateau of T&C's golf course reminds me of the view of Lake Superior from Northland CC. Much like how the view from Northland CC of the lake had been slowly covered up over the years by tree planting and growth, the dramatic view from T&C looking west over Minneapolis has slowly and largely been lost other than from the top of #9. I may be dreaming, but much like recent tree removals at Northland, I think it would be a wonderful improvement to clear as many trees as possible below said plateau to open up the view west. If the trees were cleared on the west side of #17, for example, it would really give a great sense of place and a sense that you are playing on a very dramatic river bluff high above the Mississippi with a backdrop of downtown Minneapolis.

[Rick Shefchik]

I agree with your tree removal suggestions, Pat. There are currently a number of wonderful vistas at T&C -- just like at Northland a decade ago -- but many more available. There are spots on the course where you don't realize where you are: overlooking the Mississippi River and downtown Minneapolis. Those available vistas should be uncovered where at all possible.

[PCCraig]

I agree with your tree removal suggestions, Pat. There are currently a number of wonderful vistas at T&C -- just like at Northland a decade ago -- but many more available. There are spots on the course where you don't realize where you are: overlooking the Mississippi River and downtown Minneapolis. Those available vistas should be uncovered where at all possible.

Thanks, Rick. Of course, you managed to get to exactly what I was trying to say in far less words!

[PCCraig]

I took an evening walk around the golf course last night and snapped a couple of photos on my phone of some of the things going on at T&C, for those that might be interested.

The grounds crew has completed a few "projects" which have brought a bit more of the classic charm back to our old golf course.

The bunkers, which were completed in 2013/14, are being overseeded with some fescue grasses to give them a bit more of the rugged/natural look. Here is just one example from #17:



A couple of the fairway approaches were restored on the course. The fairway approach on #10 was brought all the way out to the ridge line and looks great, and the approach to #8 was widened significantly to the left.



This was the "before" shot from the same angle in Fall 2014:



The significant restoration of the putting surface on the par-3 3rd is coming in great:



There has also been a considerable effort made to establish more "natural" and/or "no-mow" areas around the course. These areas are scattered throughout the property, and I like them a lot as it makes the course look less manicured and gives it texture. Here is one example of an area in front of the 9th tee box:



Here is another example from the 15th tee. This view has also been benefited from some tree removal from last winter.



Here is the same view from 2014 off #15 tee as a comparison:



Hopefully I'll have some very good news to share out of T&C regarding the golf course in the near future.

[BHoover]

The work looks very nice, Pat. There's also something about evening light that makes golf course photography even better.

I'm looking forward to my next playing of T&C this year. I recently played Minneapolis GC and found the property to be similar to that of T&C. There's more quirk at T&C than at MGC, but I thought both courses had a similar feel and style.

It will be interesting to hear/see what may be coming for the course.

[PCCraig]

The work looks very nice, Pat. There's also something about evening light that makes golf course photography even better.

I'm looking forward to my next playing of T&C this year. I recently played Minneapolis GC and found the property to be similar to that of T&C. There's more quirk at T&C than at MGC, but I thought both courses had a similar feel and style.

It will be interesting to hear/see what may be coming for the course.

Thanks, Brian. It's interesting that you think T&C and MGC feel similar. It's been a few years since I've been there, but MGC to me always felt like a much "brawnier" course. For years many of the best players in town played out of MGC, and that is because the course was always fairly long, tree lined, well bunkered, etc. which made for a tough test. At least when I'm at MGC, I hit a lot of mid-iron + approaches and when I'm at T&C I hit a lot more wedges & short irons.

[BHoover]

I think the similarity is more in terms of the property and the look of the course. Certainly MGC is longer and features less quirk than T&C. But for whatever reason, I thought the courses "felt" similar.

I did not think MGC was particularly brawny, however. Maybe I was just bombing it off the tee that morning!

[Joe Zucker]

This does look nice, Pat.  It made me reminisce about many of the fun shots you're forced to play at T&C. Are any of the new natural areas meant to play as a hazard of some sort to toughen up the course?  Or are they all out of the way for most shots and just cosmetic?

[PCCraig]

This does look nice, Pat.  It made me reminisce about many of the fun shots you're forced to play at T&C. Are any of the new natural areas meant to play as a hazard of some sort to toughen up the course?  Or are they all out of the way for most shots and just cosmetic?

Thanks, Joe. The new natural areas are all pretty much 'out of play', as much as possible as they can be on a course that sits on only 95 acres. They aren't intended to toughen up the course as far as I know.

[PCCraig]

Well, I wasn't sure if I needed to keep this quiet or not, but given that he's been tweeting from T&C all week I figured the cat is out of the bag.


T&C has commissioned GCA's own Jeff Mingay to complete a Master Plan for the golf course. Jeff has been at T&C the last few days playing, walking, and studying the course in preparation of the Master Plan process.


It's still very early in the overall process, but this is very exciting for the Club to have someone of Jeff's caliber working on our course!