The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)

[Neil Davis]

That's a common refrain from people who like trees, although I've never heard that said about the trees behind 3 (generally people claim they don't want to see Cretin or the houses outside of the property).  If safety is the reason, the trees aren't located in the correct spot.  And the 3rd green was exposed for probably 80 years before the trees were installed to act as a backdrop, not as a safety mechanism.  Regardless, I don't know that in 6 years playing golf at T&C I have seen a shot from 8 hit on a line that would end up on the 3rd green, yet were stopped by the trees that are there.

[PCCraig]

A member that read this thread commented that the trees behind 3 are needed because of safety issues associated with approaches to 8.  I have never considered that issue.

Looking at a map the back edge of 3 green is 42 yards from the right edge of 8 green.  I could see how very wild short right shot on 8 could reach the back of 3. 

I am not sure the trees would make a huge difference on the issue but I would be interested in hearing from Neil and Pat on the issue.

My personal opinion on the trees behind #3 (as well as other similar evergreen "screens") is that they should absolutely be removed. I've been told that they remain standing because members don't want to be able to see the neighborhood beyond the property line (for the record, Neil & I live in that neighborhood  ), not that those trees somehow make the course safer. I've heard far more negative thoughts on those trees then positive from other members, but I believe they survive primarily due to "political" reasons within the club. 

[Dan Kelly]

I've been told that they remain standing because members don't want to be able to see the neighborhood beyond the property line...

Sigh. What is wrong with people (particularly "members")?

If they didn't want to see the town, maybe they should have joined the Country & Country Club!

As for trees and safety ... I've said it 100 times before, and I'll say it a 101st:  I got hit in the head with a golf ball, and lost some of my hearing, because the trees between Braemar Nos. 5 and 15, planted for the sake of "safety," kept me invisible to the woman who hit the ball that hit me. She never yelled "Fore!" because she had no idea I was there. She had no idea I was there because she couldn't see me.

Trees DO NOT ensure safety. In some cases, they do not even promote it.

[PCCraig]

I've been told that they remain standing because members don't want to be able to see the neighborhood beyond the property line...

As for trees and safety ... I've said it 100 times before, and I'll say it a 101st:  I got hit in the head with a golf ball, and lost some of my hearing, because the trees between Braemar Nos. 5 and 15, planted for the sake of "safety," kept me invisible to the woman who hit the ball that hit me. She never yelled "Fore!" because she had no idea I was there. She had no idea I was there because she couldn't see me.

Trees DO NOT ensure safety. In some cases, they do not even promote it.

Thanks, Dan. Trees and safety seem to go hand-in-hand with each other when discussing tree management programs, at T&C and elsewhere,  and as you share above it is often done so erroneously.

[Rick Shefchik]

By the way, Pat, don't you think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "...Saint Paul, MN, USA (1893)"?

Since no one else saw fit to document the origins of the golf course, we probably ought to go along with William Peet's recollections.

[PCCraig]

By the way, Pat, don't you think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "...Saint Paul, MN, USA (1893)"?

Since no one else saw fit to document the origins of the golf course, we probably ought to go along with William Peet's recollections.

I agree that golf was first played at Town & Country in 1893, however since the Club was founded in 1888 that was the year I used in the subject title.

[Morgan Clawson]

Like the aerial photos. 

Fun to see that 3rd green bunker morph over time from an almost perfect circle, to a circle with a few breaks, and then to larger breaks, to no circle at all now.

Some of those old bunkers were really quite large compared to the 2012 aerial.

I get a kick out of that big round bunker in the NE corner of the property that looked to be quite a ways away from the line of play on those two holes.

Approximately what % of the bunkers were reshaped in the last few years?

[PCCraig]

The tree management work continues at Town & Country this fall. I managed to take a quick picture yesterday from the 10th tee (before our first snow) which shows the recent clearing of a few trees. Their removal opens up the tee shot nicely while presenting the existing specimen "V" tree more prominently.

Before

After

[Rick Shefchik]

Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.

[Jason Topp]

Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.

Pat - will it change the way the hole plays?  I do not remember that short tree really being a factor.  It definitely looks better.

[Dan Kelly]

Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.

Pat - will it change the way the hole plays?  I do not remember that short tree really being a factor.  It definitely looks better.

The short tree wasn't a factor, unless you were a short-hitting elder (or a kid), or you hit worm-burner hooks.

The big tree on the left could've been a factor, I think, if you planned to fade one off the tee and pulled it a bit.

I like seeing that goofy V tree. No sense hiding it!

[PCCraig]

Big improvement. That was an extremely awkward tee shot.

Pat - will it change the way the hole plays?  I do not remember that short tree really being a factor.  It definitely looks better.

Jason - I don't think any of the removals will impact play, but the improvement comes from the improved visuals off the tee. The fairway looks wider and now the "V" tree is much more visible.

[PCCraig]

This past week Google updated its satellite images for St. Paul and an image taken T&C of in October 2014 is shown below on the left. On the right is an image from 2010. Within that four year period, the bunkers were renovated and a modest number of trees were removed, primarily around the greens.

[Jason Topp]

I thought there was a bunker in front of number 3!

[PCCraig]

I just wanted to "bump" this thread in order to congratulate Town & Country's Superintendent, Bill Larson, on being named Golfdom's "Businessperson of the Year."

Full Article:
http://digital.golfdom.com/feb2015

Bill is Town & Country Club's greatest asset and it is wonderful to see him receive some well deserved praise!

[Neil Davis]

Another bump to keep this up at the top.  Bill's a giant as far as Minnesota/Midwest superintendents go.  We're lucky at T&C to have him and he, and his crew, deserve all the recognition they get.  Congrats, Bill!

[PCCraig]

[Rick Shefchik]

Thanks for the link, Pat. Great piece on an outstanding man.

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks for the link, Pat. Great piece on an outstanding man.

And with a fine dog, too!

[Phil McDade]

Best quote: "Bill is a hard worker. He's a St. Paul guy at a St. Paul club."

[PCCraig]

I thought I would share a few photos of some of the changes that have been made to Town & Country this past fall. 

Jeff Mingay was at the course last week reshaping the back of the 17th green. A cart path is being redirected to go behind the green (as compared to far short right of the green), and Jeff and our superintendent Bill thought it would be a good opportunity to reshape the whole area. In the process non-original mounding (some added ~7 years ago, some added ~30 years ago) behind the green was reshaped, lowered, or removed completely.

Here is a panorama view of the green last week pre-shaping:



And a panorama photo taken post-shaping:



As you might notice, the 17th green sits high on a plateau above the Mississippi River. The removal of the mounding behind the hole gives the player a greater sense of his surroundings and allows for a very long view southwest over the river into Minneapolis.

After the removal of a few trees immediately to the west of the putting surface, the player now gets to enjoy this terrific view:



Here is a few pictures showing the evolution of the approach to the par-5 17th, with a picture from the 1920's, 2009, and just last week:







Jeff also shaped a new tee for the par-3 18th behind the 17th green, which sits much higher than the existing tee boxes and offers a more dramatic shot of approximately 110-120 yards to the center of the green:



Also exciting is the putting surface reclamation at the par-3 3rd. Our superintendent used the plugs from last fall's aerification to build a nursery green, which he then took to reclaim the lost putting surface. (The same process which Oakmont used to reclaim their lost putting surface).

Here is the "before" of the 3rd green:



And the "after" illustrating the reclaimed putting surface:

[Dan Kelly]

Pat --


I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.


Nice change on 3. Now, as for the green screen....

[PCCraig]

Thanks, Dan.

I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.

Correct, as far as I know it will be used as an additional tee box.  Not a fan?

Nice change on 3. Now, as for the green screen....

Thanks. I am in 1000% agreement on the green screen!

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks, Dan.

I hope that new 18th tee box is an *additional* tee box, not a replacement.

Correct, as far as I know it will be used as an additional tee box.  Not a fan?

I'm neither a fan nor a non-fan -- particularly in that I've never played it (though I have played many holes more or less like it, I suspect).


I'm sure it will be fine, once in a while.


What I am is: I am a fan of the hole that is there now, and think that a 110-120 yard drop shot is a hole *dramatically* different from the ca. 150-yard shot now required.


I think the Pucker Factor drops considerably from what's there now, if one is hitting a wedge rather than the considerably more club now required. I like the Pucker Factor, perhaps particularly on the home hole. 


I also wonder if that shorter option will add to the "need" to keep that arborvitae (?) screen between 18 green and 1 tee. I would LOVE to see that greenery gone, so that players on 1 tee could watch the play on 18 (as, at Midland Hills, after removal of similar blocking vegetation, we can watch the play on 3 green from 4 tee and the play on 4 green from 7 tee.

[Doug Siebert]

Good call on removing that mound behind 17. I had no idea the Mississippi was even visible from the course...a lot of time private clubs like to make it hit views from the outside, but that also hides views from the inside!

I remember playing Lincoln Park in SF back in the 90s with a friend who had moved there. On the 7th (I think it was, the one where you cross that monument to get from the previous green to the tee) there were a bunch of ugly bushes along the right edge of the hole. Not really in play, and neither of us had hit over there but my friend made a point to go over there, and told me to squeeze my way into the bushes to see what was on the other side. Only probably the best view of Golden Gate in the whole freakin' city! Talk about missed opportunities.