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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks Pat, it was good to see you on Monday.


I had a great time this week at T&C hanging out with Bill Larson and his assistant, Erik Tolzmann ... a lot of cool things came out of our touring and studying of the course, and talking golf at T&C. Should be fun and productive moving forward.
jeffmingay.com

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)- XMAS Tree Sale!!
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2016, 04:33:01 PM »
There is some great tree removal work going on out at Town & Country this fall!

The entire area between the 4th tee and 8th fairway is being cleared out of evergreen trees and tall brush.

Here is a view from the tee in 2011:


Here is the same view today, pre-evergreen removal:


And the same view post-removal!:


More to come!
H.P.S.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)- XMAS Tree Sale!!!!!
« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2016, 10:27:59 AM »
Huge improvement!
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)- XMAS Tree Sale!!!!!
« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2016, 02:56:02 PM »
More evergreen removals taking place today near the 11th tee!:



H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
Edit
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:50:26 PM by PCCraig »
H.P.S.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #130 on: January 11, 2018, 05:36:49 AM »
Pat...thanks for doing this tour...and Jason...thanks for the link from this thread  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65362.0.html

The course looks...ahem...very interesting to say the least.  I really like the mix of hills and plains...of course the plains are littered with trees.  The hole I kept going back to was 10...very cool, but again the trees muck it up considerably.  IMO, one of the best aspects of wild holes is being able to attempt the recovery (often foolishly) from a poor position.  Why do course managers continually choose to remove recovery options?  Additionally, I find that long narrow greens are prime candidates for "open" golf. That said...I wouldn't dream of cutting down the V tree...very nice.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 06:06:24 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #131 on: January 11, 2018, 10:23:37 AM »
I'm glad you enjoyed the tour.

At the time I took those pictures, in 2014, the course was very much a "work in progress." Years of well-intentioned but misguided green committees had wreaked havoc on the course, with the case in point being the evergreen screen steps behind the 18th green and rows of evergreens planted in places behind greens like at the 3rd. The bones have always been there though, and thankfully they were largely left untouched.

The course's conditioning and functionality has always been second-to-none in the twin cities. The property naturally drains extremely well allowing for consistent firm, fast, and healthy turf. However, it wasn't until more recently that the club and its membership began understanding and appreciating the uniqueness of the golf course.

It started slowly. For example, during the bunker renovation in 2013 the approach to the 1st green was reclaimed as short grass from the rough that was artificially planted years ago by a Green Chairman (with a fairway opening no more than 10 paces wide). The result was that even on a short, 330 yard par 4, many of the women golfers came to the superintendent praising the additional shortgrass which allowed them to now run a longer iron or wood shot onto the green vs. being caught in rough. That in turn allowed for eventual projects such as the restoration of the very wide run up (down?) to the 15th green.

The best example of prudent stewardship of the golf course was the effort by the Superintendent to bring Jeff Mingay on as consulting architect. His first visit was in response to a small, but vocal, contingent of members who wanted to bulldoze and flatten the hill on the 6th hole. Thankfully Mr. Mingay visited the club and advised those in power that they were greatly underestimating the cost of the project, and the likely result it that no matter how much dirt you moved you would never rid the hole of a blind second shot.

That eventually led to a Master Plan. I believe to date about 8 greens and their surrounds have been renovated/restored (1, 2, 3, 9, 11, 15, 17, 18). There is no doubt that the course in 2014 was heavily over planted. Since then I would guess upwards of 250 trees have been removed (~130 last winter) and quite a few are scheduled to come down this winter. Their removal has opened internal vistas into the ravine which are just breathtaking and has even some older tree-favoring members coming around. The results have been terrific in my opinion and the course should only get better over the next few years.

Overall, I think Town & Country's golf course is really special. It gives you a sense of place in which you never doubt where you are as it is so unique that it never reminds you of anyplace else. There are quite a few people who dismiss it as *too* quirky or odd, some people who hate it, and many people who just adore it. That's ok, T&C has and always will fit my eye and is the example of the type of course that I really enjoy. If you ever make it to the area I would recommend you check it out.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:36:22 AM by PCCraig »
H.P.S.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #132 on: January 11, 2018, 10:28:01 AM »
Hi Sean,


More trees are coming down at T&C as we speak. Most of those trees that infer with golf and hide the beauty of the property will be gone by the time this golf season begins. With more open space, we're also planning to plant in appropriate places; mostly oak.


The "V Tree" is on its last leg. It's old and in declining health, and could become dangerous if something's not done sooner than later. The 10th hole will be better without it, frankly.
jeffmingay.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2018, 05:06:40 AM »
Thanks Pat.  It is clear T&C holds a special place in your heart.

Jeff...sure, if the V tree is a goner then it must go for firewood.  In general though, I caution against cutting down cool trees even if they may not help the strategy of a hole unless the trees actually cause damage. I am no tree hugger, but I love trees.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2018, 04:24:20 PM »
Sean,


I think and feel the same. I'll always hesitate to recommend cutting down a cool tree. The "V Tree" at T&C is cool. But, it's at the end of its rope. And, again, I think the 10th hole - a tough one - will be better for it.
jeffmingay.com

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2018, 09:53:45 PM »
Sean,


The "V" tree is a neat tree but as Jeff notes it doesn't have much longer...it's literally rotting through the middle and eventually the great weight of one of the two trunks will peel itself off.


The ideal line on the hole is to play left and away from the V tree, anyway. So it's possible to hit the tree, but its typically a very poor shot if you do.


The hole would be truly special if the V tree and about 5-6 trees short and right of the green are removed. That would allow the player the strategic choice to either hug the OB on the left and gain a flat lie and an ideal shot into the green, or to bail out right off the tee but have a hard  lie with the ball above your feet with all the trouble left looming.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2018, 10:04:49 AM »
Pat,


That's the plan on the latest draft of the Master Plan: Expect the "V Tree" to be gone soon. It doesn't need to be replaced. Remove/trim some trees on the right, as you mention, to open a line of play to the green from the right side. And, remove the declining Oak on the left side of the green.
jeffmingay.com

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Town & Country Club, Saint Paul, MN, USA (1888)
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2018, 01:05:40 PM »
The following article from Golf Course Architecture details some of the recent work completed at T&C:

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/restoration-work-continues-at-town-country-club
H.P.S.

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