Stourbridge GC - photos & confusion

[Thomas Dai]

What do folks think of this par-3 hole?

It's on a rather nice, but not particularly well known outside of its locality, inland sand based course in the UK designed by a famous architect.

As the planner states, the hole plays 130 yds to the front edge and 145 yds to the middle. The elevation change is about 15 ft (+/- a bit). To the rear is long grass, to the right is mown and to the left are trees and a considerable away slope.

I'm not yet going to name the course or the architect - that's not the point of the case study - but I will name them in due course.

So, what do you think of the hole, which by the way, now plays as the 9th rather than the 7th as the planners diagram states.

Would you change the hole and if so what would you do?

Here's the hole plan -


First photo - view from behind the green


Second and third photos - views from the front left and front right



Fourth photo - view from within the left side front bunker


atb

[Brent Hutto]

A club I belonged to from 2002-2005 had a bunkerless version as its fourth hole. About 135 yards to the center from the regular men's tee (160 from the tournament tees) and the one I'm thinking about was more like 25-30 feet uphill. From the tee you could see the tip of the flagstick when it was back and about half the flagstick when it was front. Our green was a couple yards shallower and a couple of yards wider, basically shaped like a 25-yard diameter circle but with countours to provide a couple of humps and bowls.

I always liked the hole except for one thing. If we came up more than about three yards short of the front of the green there was a very deep hollowed-out area with extremely steep upslope and/or sideslope depending on exactly where the ball ended up. Not only was hitting the shot out of there difficult (rightly so I guess as it was a de facto hazard on a very short Par 3) but keeping ones footing while clambering in and out of that area was onerous.

But playing-wise I like the very short, very uphill Par 3 better than a similarly uphill one of 180 yards or whatever.

[Ronald Montesano]

Love it...#2 at Colgate U. (New York) is similar. #3 at Concord Crest (New York) as well. It's a pitch with a short iron or wedge, and one should be able to negotiate such a shot with dexterity.

[Bill Brightly]

I don't mind the hole, a perfectly fair test of your short irons. But if the green is firm and you miss in one of the side bunkers, I but there are plenty of players going Saddam. (Bunker-to-bunker.)

[Thomas Dai]

I don't mind the hole, a perfectly fair test of your short irons. But if the green is firm and you miss in one of the side bunkers, I but there are plenty of players going Saddam. (Bunker-to-bunker.)

I know what you mean Bill and the greens are famous for being firm and fast. I hit my tee shot into the rear left hand bunker and was extremely happy to splash to 10ft. Missed the putt, grrrrrr!

Wee par-3's with small greens are terrific in my view.

From the tee it appears that the rear of the green is angled to the left, but it isn't. More visual deception.

atb

[Ronald Montesano]

does the stand of trees obstruct at all?

[Thomas Dai]

does the stand of trees obstruct at all?

Good point Ron. They do very slightly on the left hand side. I imagine that once upon a time, like when the course was first laid out, there were no trees there.

atb

[Paul Gray]

Aside from the need to remove the trees on the left, I really rather like it. Can't say I recognise it though so will be interested to know where it is.

[Thomas Dai]

This hole is at Stourbridge GC, located about 15 miles SW of Birmingham.

It's a cracking wee hole. In fact Stourbridge is a cracking wee course. Not 'wee' in the sense of overall length, it's 6,200 yds from the back tees, but 'wee' because of the small acreage used, believed to be about 90 acres. And I must say if someone can point me in the direction of another 18-hole course of Stourbridge's quality on only 90 acres, well I'd love to see it.

Whoever designed the course - Dr MacK' or not? - see later for confusion!! - managed to fit 18-holes within 90 acres by routing 4 cross-over holes. Not something usually acceptable but at Stourbridge it works pretty well, maybe that's due to the quality of the individual holes. The course is pretty heavily bunkered and the nice thing from a GCA point of view is that the bunkering remains in Dr MacK's (??) style.

It may well not be a 'known' name course, a bit of a 'sleeper' really, but a course worth visiting.

atb

[Frank Pont]

Very nice... I need to visit this course next time I am in Blackwell!

One thing that is clear is that the bunkers have shrunk a lot, would be interesting to see how spectacular the hole was with the original size bunkers. The other odd thing is that there is an even number of bunkers, whereas in those days the old archies liked using uneven numbers. So did one bunker get added or was one bunker lost.....

[Thomas Dai]

Very nice... I need to visit this course next time I am in Blackwell!
One thing that is clear is that the bunkers have shrunk a lot, would be interesting to see how spectacular the hole was with the original size bunkers. The other odd thing is that there is an even number of bunkers, whereas in those days the old archies liked using uneven numbers. So did one bunker get added or was one bunker lost.....

Frank - interesting point about the 'even-uneven' number of bunkers. If you plan to go, let me know beforehand.

I have some more photos but am struggling with posting them at the moment.

atb

[Joshua Pettit]

The other odd thing is that there is an even number of bunkers, whereas in those days the old archies liked using uneven numbers. So did one bunker get added or was one bunker lost.....

Frank - interesting point about the 'even-uneven' number of bunkers. If you plan to go, let me know beforehand.

This notion that an odd number of bunkers is more in tune with nature is one that over time people have seemingly accepted as being true, even though their is plenty of evidence to refute it.  And this is certainly not a rule MacKenzie gave any credence to.  For instance, at Meadow Club, 15 green complexes have an even amount of bunkers -- 11 at Pasatiempo -- 7 at Valley Club.

Who's to say that odd numbers of anything appear more often in nature than even numbers?  I'd venture to say it's roughly 50/50.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that this is true...a number of questions should arise from applying such a premise to the enumeration of bunkers on a golf course:

1. How do you delineate a green complex?  Do you just include bunkers that butt up against the green or do you also include bunkers that are 20-30-40 yards short of the green?  What about a bunker that's 150 yards short of the green but seamlessly blends with the green-side bunkers when you are standing on the tee?

2. What about a situation where 2 adjacent bunkers were built to look as if they were 1? and vice versa?  In this situation you could have a green complex with 4 bunkers that look like 5, or 5 bunkers that look like 4, etc.

Counting bunkers on a golf course is like counting clouds in the sky...it entirely depends on your perspective.

[Frank Pont]

Joshua, good point I was speaking for Colt and Simpson, where the principle is true in about 80-90 % of the time. No expert on Mac....

Always be careful with what is there now, versus in the oldest aerials (usually 1935-40) and when the course was built

[Thomas Dai]

Some interesting aspects and holes at Stourbridge

It's worth noting that the Club changed the routing/hole-numbering earlier this year. The old 1st is now the 3rd. I've used the 'new' hole number referencing in this thread.

Here is a little more flavour of the course.

This is the second shot on the 4th hole, par-4 of 410 yds doglegging left from a tee on a ridge.


and some photos of the 4th holes green complex with its quite extensive bunkering, firstly as seen from front-left and secondly, as seen from front-right



In an earlier post above I mentioned the bunkering and the cross-over holes. Here is an example of the fairway bunkering, in this case to the right of the fairway at the first of the cross-over holes, the 390 yd par4 6th.


And this fairway bunker comes into play on both the 7th and the 11th holes.


Below is a hole I found particularly interesting, the now numbered 16th. It plays downhill and can play as either a 270 yd par-4 or as a 180 yd par-3.

When playing as the par-4 version you tee-off over the preceding green and the hole plays as a very slight dogleg right and the green is blind. When in par-3 mode the top of the flag is just visible. But it's the narrowness of the green that fascinates me.

Here is the hole diagram - when in par-4 mode the tee shot has to be very exact or a pretty nasty approach shot from an awkward angle could await. When in par-3 mode it still plays interesting.



Two photos taken from the rear of the green -




And from the right side (as you play the hole) -






And from the left side -





As you see the green on this hole is incredibly narrow in the middle. I believe a pin on the very front of the green is just about possible and obviously there are several pin positions within the wider rear section but the middle, wow, that's tight, and the ball rolls down onto the green with considerable pace to it. Incidentally, that's my ball in the bunker (I played the hole as a par-3) in the earlier photo and I hit a real ripper of a bunker shot with a lot of spin and still only managed to stop it 6ft past the hole. The hole is SI-18 when played as a par-4. I can't imagine it's SI-18 when played as a par-3.

Anyway, that's a flavour of Dr MacK's Stourbridge and here's a Bing sat-map - http://binged.it/10exzmg

Certainly a course worth playing if you're either in the area. Fine condition too, especially the greens which were firm and rolled very well.

atb

[Joshua Pettit]

Joshua, good point I was speaking for Colt and Simpson, where the principle is true in about 80-90 % of the time. No expert on Mac....

Always be careful with what is there now, versus in the oldest aerials (usually 1935-40) and when the course was built

Absolutely Frank.  That's another very important stipulation.  In this case the examples I used are almost entirely original with a few minor exceptions:

No. 9 at Valley Club has 4 bunkers now, but originally there was another bunker 45-50 yards short-left of the green that sat just behind the creek, which would have blended with the bunkers around the green as you are standing back in the fairway -- so I didn't count that.

No. 11 at Valley Club is missing an original bunker on the left hillside which would give it 5 bunkers, so I didn't count that.

No. 12 at Meadow Club has 4 now, but originally it had 2 more bunkers that were about 30-40 yards short of the green that would have blended with the others, so in any case I count it as an even.

No. 14 at Meadow Club has 2 bunkers now, but originally had 4, with one being way short-right.  But that also qualifies as an even in my book:

[Duncan Cheslett]

Thomas,

I'd never heard of Stourbridge in connection with Alister MacKenzie. It is not listed amongst MacKenzie's courses in Tom Doak's book, the club are not members of the MacKenzie Society, and there is no mention of him on the club website. I have not found any mention of Stourbridge on the MacKenzie Chronology.

Are you sure that he was the architect?  I have to say that the course does look interesting.

Rgds
Duncan

[Thomas Dai]

Duncan,

Most curious!

I will happily stand corrected, indeed I have inserted numerous ??'s into the lead thread title in the hope that one of GCA's Dr MacK' experts will chime in with an answer. I did double check with the Colt course listing and it's not on there either!

I will admit to not checking the Dr MacK' literature for a couple of reasons, one, because folk I know in this part of the world always associate Stourbridge with Dr MacK', perhaps an oversight, and two, because some of the greens, for example the narrow centred 17th (ex 15th) don't half look similar to what we know that Dr MacK' designed not too far away at, for example, Worcester (Boughton Park), Malvern (The Worcestershire) and Walsall.

I'd love to know the answer!

atb

[Neil_Crafter]

Thomas
Interesting post and your thread title got my attention! 

In all the research we have undertaken about Mackenzie our little group has yet to uncover any mention of Stourbridge in connection with Mackenzie. Now of course this doesn't mean that he was not connected with Stourbridge in some way, just we haven't come across anything.
Given his work at Worcester, Worcestershire and Walsall is not too far away it is certainly possible.

The course does look interesting and certainly has visual elements that could be Mackenzie. I just checked in Cornish & Whitten and the course is not listed at all, so no help there.

Thomas, my suggested course of action would be for you to contact the club and see if they have any information on the designer of their course. If indeed they have information supporting a Mackenzie provenance then we would love to talk to them further.

As an example, in the last 18 months or so we have confirmed four more courses with a strong Mackenzie connection, so I would never rule anything out until we know more.

cheers Neil

[Tony_Muldoon]

Joshua, good point I was speaking for Colt and Simpson, where the principle is true in about 80-90 % of the time. No expert on Mac....

Always be careful with what is there now, versus in the oldest aerials (usually 1935-40) and when the course was built

Absolutely Frank.  That's another very important stipulation.  In this case the examples I used are almost entirely original with a few minor exceptions:

No. 9 at Valley Club has 4 bunkers now, but originally there was another bunker 45-50 yards short-left of the green that sat just behind the creek, which would have blended with the bunkers around the green as you are standing back in the fairway -- so I didn't count that.

No. 11 at Valley Club is missing an original bunker on the left hillside which would give it 5 bunkers, so I didn't count that.

No. 12 at Meadow Club has 4 now, but originally it had 2 more bunkers that were about 30-40 yards short of the green that would have blended with the others, so in any case I count it as an even.

No. 14 at Meadow Club has 2 bunkers now, but originally had 4, with one being way short-right.  But that also qualifies as an even in my book:

This may or may not be relevant.

In flower arranging one of the first things you are taught is 'never' to use even no's.  
With even no's you struggle to avoid symetry and with an odd no, the eye never rests.
In short odd is more visually interesting than even.

[Neil White]

Hi Thomas,

I have just come across your thread regarding Stourbridge G.C.  I have a copy of the Centenary book and the following is lifted from it.

The club had an original 9-hole layout from their inception in 1892 thru' 1898, where upon a change in the ownership of the tenanted land resulted in the closure of the course.  Nearby Hagley G.C provided a stop-gap for members of SGC until a further change in the ownership of the original tenanted land allowed SGC back onto the original course.

Built within the confines of a racecourse the course had a number of crossing holes even when only a 9-hole layout.  On December 18th, 1909 18-holes were opened, designed by then Kings Norton Golf Club professional, Mr. W.P Lewis.

Prior to the construction of the 18-holes the club approached Braid, Taylor and Vardon for estimates of fees to extend the course, however nothing came of this. 

In 1924, the club requested the advice of James Braid regarding the problem of the crossing holes - although nothing was done at the time.  A similar thing happened in 1967 Henry Cotton was called in to provide a plan removing the crossing holes - initially his plan was accepted but by 1968 the Cotton solution was rejected.

The course as it stands now is pretty much the same layout as it was when it was first built in 1909, apart from some re-numbering.

I have scoured the book but cannot find any mention of MacKenzie.

Neil.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you for this Neil. It's a strange one as visually there many similarities with other Dr MacK' work, that (now) 17th green for example is sooo Worcester/Boughton Park like, others too. I wonder if the staff and members in charge at Stourbridge over time incorporated things they liked from other courses in the area?

I wonder if there are any old aerial photos that could throw some light on things.

atb

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I remember playing at Stourbridge quite alot as a kid in thier Junior Open.
I remember some of the older members...this would have been mid seevmties talking about"some old pro from the old Kings Norton building the course. for what that is worth.
It always remnded me of much of the course archiotecture in that portion of he midlands where Colt and Briad have a very heavy influence with the likes of Copt Heath, Robin Hood , Fulford Heath et al

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I have a feeling that Stourbridge used to be listed in the Guinness Book of Records as having (words to the effect of) the most golf for the least acreage.

I lived in Wolverhampton in the 1960s and played quite a few of the courses in the West Midlands, but I don't recall playing at Stourbridge - you couldn't forget a hole such as the one you have selected.

Anyone got photos of Penn, South Staffs, Oxley, etc to share with us?

[Thomas Dai]

I have a feeling that Stourbridge used to be listed in the Guinness Book of Records as having (words to the effect of) the most golf for the least acreage.
I lived in Wolverhampton in the 1960s and played quite a few of the courses in the West Midlands, but I don't recall playing at Stourbridge - you couldn't forget a hole such as the one you have selected.
Anyone got photos of Penn, South Staffs, Oxley, etc to share with us?

Mark,

I posted herein some photos of South Staffs - an really excellent parkland, very much worth playing, 6,600 yds, lots of long par-4's, tough track, super conditioning, worth travelling to play - http://www.southstaffordshiregolfclub.co.uk/ - a while back but can't now trace them. A course that deserves a GCA photo tour.

Not played there but is Penn the course on the common?

I don't know Oxley but I see it's a Colt design.

I've heard good reports about Shifnel. Anyone know it?

Michael,

The bunkering and green complexes at Stourbridge are noticeable different to those at Copt Heath, Fulford Heath etc. Much more like Walsall, Worcester, Malvern, hence my particular referencing of the (now) 17th hole/green. Not that I don't like Copt H and Fulford H because I do.

Anyone recall the old Kings Norton course, not the new 27-holer, but the original one which is now lies under housing I believe?

atb

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Thomas certainly agree on the differences you mentinoned and some of those Stourbridge greens are bizarre but it a good way

The entire green complexes that I mentioned and also to include Robin Hood, Edgbaston,Handsworth are certainly more straightforward and more Colt like you are very correct.