[Jason Thurman]

0. A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

In the thread discussing Tom Doak's bestowing the St. Andrews Castle course with a rating of 0 in the new edition of The Confidential Guide, several posters have suggested that golf courses rated 0 should be seen in order to learn what not to do. Yet, Tom Doak's definition of a 0 states that he doesn't recommend such courses under any circumstances. Who is correct?

[Craig Van Egmond]

You learn to appreciate the Doak 2,3,4 that you play normally.   

[jeffwarne]

That you should've bought the book....

[John Kavanaugh]

In his world there is no 0 in Doak.  Tobacco Road is a perfect example of a 0 worth playing.

[Tom_Doak]

In his world there is no 0 in Doak.  Tobacco Road is a perfect example of a 0 worth playing.

Tobacco Road sure won't be a 0 in the next volume.

Ultimately, if you learn anything from a 0, then I was wrong to give it that grade.  If you don't learn anything from it, then maybe I was right.

[John Kavanaugh]

Honestly, I don't get the whole learning thing.

[Tom_Doak]

Honestly, I don't get the whole learning thing.

 

(No comment)

[Matthew Petersen]

I think it's an interesting experience to play a zero and consider why Tom might have felt it deserved that harsh rating. They are usually not boring golf courses, just flawed in some fundamental way. That someone who obviously has a lot of knowledge about course construction and design would say this shouldn't have been built causes you (well, my, anyway) to consider the course on a more basic level than I normally would. You start from "What was here before and why did someone think it should be a golf course?" which is not something I normally consider when looking at a course.

[Joe Bausch]

Frank Layden, on a former player: “I told him, Son, what is it with you: Is it ignorance or apathy?’ He said, ” ‘Coach, I don’t know and I don’t care.’”

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - tee hee!

Jason: Assuming the kind of course I myself might view as a "O", I think I'd learn -- or should I say, re-learn -- that perched greens and a manufactured aesthetic and a high slope rating and expensive green fees combine (as those elements inevitably seem to do) to characterize a golf course that this average golfer has no business playing, and little no interest in experiencing.

Peter

[DMoriarty]

The first Doak "0" I played was a travesty of a course in Orange County called Cypress something, and I played it before I had ever seen the Confidential Guide.   Seeing it listed as "0" confirmed for me that the book was a worthwhile resource. (While I don't recall specifically, that may have been the reason I bought the book.)   So it wasn't so much that I learned something by playing the course, but I did learn something about TD's views on architecture, and that his opinion was worth consulting.

[Mac Plumart]

Maybe you can learn that golf is fun.

I played, what just may have been, a Doak 0 a few years ago with some GCAers in the Low Country.  We had a great time, laughed our butts off at some of the architectural features, and looked forward to our next round(s) at some better courses.

[Tim_Weiman]

The first Doak "0" I played was a travesty of a course in Orange County called Cypress something, and I played it before I had ever seen the Confidential Guide.   Seeing it listed as "0" confirmed for me that the book was a worthwhile resource. (While I don't recall specifically, that may have been the reason I bought the book.)   So it wasn't so much that I learned something by playing the course, but I did learn something about TD's views on architecture, and that his opinion was worth consulting.

David,

I think you are talking about the course next to the horse track. Think I played it twice. Yeah, pretty bad. Much rather go play Rec Park - by a long shot!

[Jud_T]

That you chose to piss away $200 and 4 hours of your life even though you had a heads up from a reliable source?

[Bill Seitz]

The first Doak "0" I played was a travesty of a course in Orange County called Cypress something, and I played it before I had ever seen the Confidential Guide.   Seeing it listed as "0" confirmed for me that the book was a worthwhile resource. (While I don't recall specifically, that may have been the reason I bought the book.)   So it wasn't so much that I learned something by playing the course, but I did learn something about TD's views on architecture, and that his opinion was worth consulting.

Playing that course (it was just Cypress Golf Course, or maybe Club), I learned that they should not have built a golf course there.  About a decade later, the market apparently agreed, and it's NLE.  It was pretty terrible.  Basically take the worst qualities of Pete Dye courses, and shove them into a spot (actually, two separate plots of land, as a few holes played in the infield of Los Alamitos Race Track), and lump them all together into one terrible golf course.  Conditioning was alright, I guess.

[Sean_A]

Well, judging by Castle being a 0, I learned that like anybody, Doak can be incredibly harsh when something gets up his nose.  Thats basically how a 0 should be defined...the course got up my nose...never again.

Ciao

[Ian Mackenzie]

Jeez...a "0"..?...really?

From Golf.com...,

"Kidd, who lives in Oregon, was traveling overseas this week, but he rang in from London and was asked for his reaction to Doak’s Castle Course review. He said it was the first he’d heard of the “0” rating.

“That’s pretty ridiculous,” Kidd said. “Ok, so maybe it’s not a 10. But it is a zero? No way.”
He chalked up the grade to “Tom letting his emotions cloud his impartiality.”

On a more philosophical note, Kidd added, “I don’t appreciate being reviewed by one of my peers. I think it's pretty childish. But I suppose any publicity is good publicity, right?”

[JESII]

Importantly, Tom never does pretend to be impartial, does he?

These are opinions.

It's the strength of that opinion that makes the rating/books worthwhile.

[JESII]

And my opinion is that there are no 0's.

Who is Tom to judge ROI for the guy that funded the Castle Course?

[Jud_T]

Would people's panties be less bunched up if he didn't give it a grade but rather said simply "Personally, I can't in clear conscience recommend playing this course, particularly for this money and with so many other great options nearby"?  It's not as if he said the guy's a child molestor.

[Sean_A]

Jud

Perhaps, because my beef is that I don't believe Tom is evenly applying the definition of a 0.  I would prefer he just said the course stinks and I won't suggest anybody should give it a go.  But to say the following is speculative and could easily fit many modern courses like a glove...yet there is only one in the book.  If there were half a dozen or whatever I may buy it much easier, but only one 0?  It doesn't set right with me.

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Ciao

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There is a course on Long Island that earned a 0,  which I have played quite a few times in tournaments.  Knowing that it was a 0 kind of made the rounds go by with devious smiles.  In the case of this course, the knowledge of the rating made me observe how badly it was misrouted and how poorly every feature had been constructed.  A case of sour grapes could be made, since another architect got the opportunity to put the tuxedo on the pig when the club decided to enhance and renovate the course. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jud

Perhaps, because my beef is that I don't believe Tom is evenly applying the definition of a 0.  I would prefer he just said the course stinks and I won't suggest anybody should give it a go.  But to say the following is speculative and could easily fit many modern courses like a glove...yet there is only one in the book.  If there were half a dozen or whatever I may buy it much easier, but only one 0?  It doesn't set right with me.

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Ciao

Sean:

There's not only one "0" in the book.  There's only one "0" in this volume, which covers Great Britain & Ireland.

Are you suggesting there are others among the courses I've covered?  If so, you should name names.  If not, you should not criticize me for being uneven, thank you.

[Josh Stevens]

Never played it, but admire your courage.  Criticising peers is a tricky business - how do respond when you bump into a fellow architect that you have in effect labelled as incompetent and  should consider a career change?

[Garland Bayley]

And my opinion is that there are no 0's.

Who is Tom to judge ROI for the guy that funded the Castle Course?

Guy???

It was the St. Andrews Trust!

Decision by committee I presume.

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