[Mark Pavy]

You can probably learn a lot more about the rater than the course.

"0" stinks of elitist golf architectural snobbery.

[Tom_Doak]

Never played it, but admire your courage.  Criticising peers is a tricky business - how do respond when you bump into a fellow architect that you have in effect labelled as incompetent and  should consider a career change?

Josh:

Those are your labels, not mine.  Perhaps you should go read my review of the course on the other thread. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought one of Bill Coore's early designs earned a zero. Perhaps that made him a better architect and we have all benefited in the long run.

[Josh Stevens]

Wasn't accusing you of anything, just relating personal experience.  I don't take criticism well, even when it is justified.  Its a delicate business

[Tom_Doak]

I thought one of Bill Coore's early designs earned a zero. Perhaps that made him a better architect and we have all benefited in the long run.

John:

That was King's Crossing, in Corpus Christi.  Actually, I gave it a 2.  Bill was not very happy about that.

I just double-checked and confirmed that the course has been closed for 5 years.  I doubt my review had anything to do with that.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sorry, but if you didn't give at least one course a zero all your tens would be eights.

[William_G]

I thought one of Bill Coore's early designs earned a zero. Perhaps that made him a better architect and we have all benefited in the long run.

John:

That was King's Crossing, in Corpus Christi.  Actually, I gave it a 2.  Bill was not very happy about that.

I just double-checked and confirmed that the course has been closed for 5 years.  I doubt my review had anything to do with that.

Tom Doak," The Course Killer", LOL

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak," The Course Killer", LOL

William:

I think about half of the courses I gave 0's in the original book are either closed or have been completely redesigned.

Of course, three of my own designs have closed, too, even though none of them were 0's.

[William_G]

Tom Doak," The Course Killer", LOL

William:

I think about half of the courses I gave 0's in the original book are either closed or have been completely redesigned.

Of course, three of my own designs have closed, too, even though none of them were 0's.

Tom

What are you saying?

Reminds me of Hal in 2001 Space Odyssey, LOL 

[Sean_A]

Jud

Perhaps, because my beef is that I don't believe Tom is evenly applying the definition of a 0.  I would prefer he just said the course stinks and I won't suggest anybody should give it a go.  But to say the following is speculative and could easily fit many modern courses like a glove...yet there is only one in the book.  If there were half a dozen or whatever I may buy it much easier, but only one 0?  It doesn't set right with me.

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Ciao

Sean:

There's not only one "0" in the book.  There's only one "0" in this volume, which covers Great Britain & Ireland.

Are you suggesting there are others among the courses I've covered?  If so, you should name names.  If not, you should not criticize me for being uneven, thank you.

Tom

Okay, so the one volume is not the book, fair enough.  Honestly though, you can't think of any other GB&I courses which fit the definition of a 0?
I won't say which are 0s because I obviously don't buy the definition, but according to the definition, here are some possible candidates

The place where the Ryder Cup will be played this weekend
The place where the Ryder Cup was played when last in Britain
Trump Aberdeen
Bally Cashen
Old Head
Dukes

I could go on, but you get the idea.  Much depends on which aspect of your definition is emphasized.  All I am saying is that what should be emphasized is that you wouldn't recommend the course.  The reasons for this are likely a bit different in each case.

Ciao   

[Thomas Dai]

Is there a listing - or a link to a listing - that someone could please post of the courses in the original Confidential Guide and what Doak Scale ranking each course was awarded?
atb

[Joe_Tucholski]

Is there a listing - or a link to a listing - that someone could please post of the courses in the original Confidential Guide and what Doak Scale ranking each course was awarded?
atb

The below link has Tom listing the 10's.  Jud's comment will get you the rest, and the price has gone down quite a bit
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

[Ian Mackenzie]

oops

[Jason Thurman]

Sean, do you really think the 0 rating emphasizes anything other than that Tom Doak doesn't recommend a given course, at all, under any circumstances? I'm not sure what you're looking for with "even application" of the 0 rating. It sounds like you want the rating to be applied to every course that is modern, relatively expensive, and moved some dirt during construction. That just seems a bit ridiculous. My understanding of a zero is that it's a course that had its sights set high and failed miserably in reaching them, resulting in something audacious and unredeemable. All of the "ands" in that sentence are important. I've never heard anyone suggest that Trump Aberdeen is unredeemable. Gleneagles, from what I've seen, doesn't look very audacious. "So contrived that it may poison your mind... that I cannot recommend under any circumstances" is a really strong sentence that shouldn't be thrown onto every course that feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.

[Jud_T]

Is there a listing - or a link to a listing - that someone could please post of the courses in the original Confidential Guide and what Doak Scale ranking each course was awarded?
atb

The below link has Tom listing the 10's.  Jud's comment will get you the rest, and the price has gone down quite a bit
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

I'm not the one who spilled the beans...

[Garland Bayley]

It occurs to me that the practice of casting out outliers in course ratings simply continues perhaps flawed conventional wisdom. The ratings for the Castle Course in the new CF are 0,5,5. Cast out the outlier, and the rating is 5. Now who's rating do you trust most? Tom's or the other two? Is considering it a 5 not flawed conventional wisdom being propagated.

I played Saunton East last week. It seems that conventional wisdom has it as a highly rated course. However, it seems to me that Alister MacKenzie might exclaim that it had been ruined, as the undulation in the fairways was missing while still present on Saunton West. I presume that those undulations had been removed at the insistence of the mindless scratch men who want to shoot low scores. I say mindless, because Dr. Mac reminds us that the scratch man has the advantage of being better able to play the ball off the uneven lies than the handicap man, so removing them diminishes the scratch man's advantage over the handicap man. Furthermore Dr. Mac would warn us against a course where lost balls and ball searching are a very common occurrence. If I had known what I know now, I would never have played it in the first place.

[Thomas Dai]

It occurs to me that the practice of casting out outliers in course ratings simply continues perhaps flawed conventional wisdom. The ratings for the Castle Course in the new CF are 0,5,5. Cast out the outlier, and the rating is 5. Now who's rating do you trust most? Tom's or the other two? Is considering it a 5 not flawed conventional wisdom being propagated.

I played Saunton East last week. It seems that conventional wisdom has it as a highly rated course. However, it seems to me that Alister MacKenzie might exclaim that it had been ruined, as the undulation in the fairways was missing while still present on Saunton West. I presume that those undulations had been removed at the insistence of the mindless scratch men who want to shoot low scores. I say mindless, because Dr. Mac reminds us that the scratch man has the advantage of being better able to play the ball off the uneven lies than the handicap man, so removing them diminishes the scratch man's advantage over the handicap man. Furthermore Dr. Mac would warn us against a course where lost balls and ball searching are a very common occurrence. If I had known what I know now, I would never have played it in the first place.

Saunton - impact on Herbert Fowler's original work by it's later use for US Army WW2 tank training?
atb

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom
Did you get to Banff already?
Will you be going to nearby Silvertip?
That is a complete 0!
Miles of cart path between holes, unsafe retracements and a par 5 that required a marshall on the tee to tell us to tee off with a 9 iron.
I was unable to take my club back after a while, it did leave me dumber for the experience.
It must have been very expensive and it is a modern course.
Cheers

[James Brown]

What I learned from Castle:  That a course like that would seem novel in say, the Eastern Shore of Maryland, but seemed like a total abomination  at the Home of Golf.  In other words, our perception of a course is pretty darn important. 

[Steve Lang]

  Playing??  Just like any other course, learning depth perception tricks of the trade, synoptics as presented, and of course what challenges my shot making.  Paying???  Probably never again.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I'm just curious.

Of the commentators here how many have actually played the Castle course???

What did you think???

[Jim Nugent]

It occurs to me that the practice of casting out outliers in course ratings simply continues perhaps flawed conventional wisdom.

I think we should NOT omit outliers.  Why should their opinion not count? 

That said, it's good to know the standard deviation as well. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom
Did you get to Banff already?
Will you be going to nearby Silvertip?
That is a complete 0!
Miles of cart path between holes, unsafe retracements and a par 5 that required a marshall on the tee to tell us to tee off with a 9 iron.
I was unable to take my club back after a while, it did leave me dumber for the experience.
It must have been very expensive and it is a modern course.
Cheers

Mike:

I'll go to Banff and Jasper next summer.  Sounds like there's no need to add Silvertip to that itinerary.

[David Ober]

What I learned from Castle:  That a course like that would seem novel in say, the Eastern Shore of Maryland, but seemed like a total abomination  at the Home of Golf.  In other words, our perception of a course is pretty darn important. 

Just played Castle back in July, along with several greats in Scotland and Ireland. By far the worst course we played. Just awful, IMHO. Beautiful views. Horrible golf.

[David Ober]

I'm just curious.

Of the commentators here how many have actually played the Castle course???

What did you think???

It's just horrible. Contrived, blind, severe, no fun. Great views, though! LOL

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