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Happy Gilmore

The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« on: August 25, 2003, 12:06:13 PM »
I had the good fortune to spend this past and glorious weekend playing my first 36 holes at The Bridge and another 36 at Friars Head.
   My rookie round at TB was met by wonderful weather, mild but apparent winds, and near perfect conditions. The greens were quick (likely 10-12), the course maintainence perfect. I vowed to give it my most objective obeservations and to forget about the price of membership or anyting other than the course and its practice facilities. The range and putting green are perfectly situated(next to the first tee) very ample and functional.
    We played the course at its tips, a brutal 7341 (on the card) 76.1/140. The 1st hole, a 460yd straight away par 4 looks very inviting and feels like an invigorating start. From elevated tee to re-elevated green it has the trademark Rees look of a side opening to an oblong green guarded by a single and deep greenside bunker. The second, a 208 par 3 once again uses the elevated tee to elevated green with another oblong green and single deep bunker. The 3rd (a 439 4 par) with a semi-blind drive and fairway bunker to a crowned green and the 4th (a short dogleg left) were slightly more interesting. Not until the 9th(a 585yd par 5) did my interest pique again (other than the very pretty and expansive vistas from a few tees). The hole was rather bland until, near the hole, a few strategic bunkers and dunes appear to guard the green from errant shotmaking. The 10th, another 5 par made the drive fit into a skinny alley well defined by a neck of grassy and sandy bunkers let me down. Once past the drive, the approach was all uphill to a green that won't accept any shot other than a 250yd or under sky high fade. Just not quite as good as it visually appears.
   From there on, the course resumes its vistas and elevation swopes. Not once does it veer off its path of formulaic Rees elevated tee, lower green for par threes, reverse or doppleganged for the 4's. All the holes are beautifully framed apart from one another and are wonderfully maintained. The walks between greens and tees are serious hoofs and tiring. No steps or planks are used to assist the walker. Only the very tiring walk from 15 to 16 is rewarded with something interesting...this time a 250yd all downhill par 3 to a well protected green. The 17th also elicits some reaction as it is the first time Rees really uses fairway bunkers to pinch the fairways. The ending hole, a 567 five is the best of its class, but still is in sore need of something special (such as a splitting fairway bunker).
     Our between round lunch was punctuated by the host member lamenting over just how underwhelming the course is relative to the quality of land given to him. He remarked tha Rees has called this a "masterpiece" and if that's the case, history will not treat him well. I didn't do any "Rees bashing" and promised to rereview after another 18.
    4 hours later, the verdict was final: It was a monumental miss on a great piece of land. The bulk of the holes border on repetitious, few are memorable and none are so visually or strategically unique. It's a tough and excessively tiring walk punctuated by scenic vistas. The course is no less than a decent one, but far short of anything great. As my member friend said, "it was a choice of location and proximity, but a miss on perfectly converting the property." He went on to say he didn't know if he could have gotten into other nearby clubs (inc. FH).
    The next day might have been my best of the year. 36 holes at Friars Head with a stiff 20mph wind that shifted and quartered from North to West. The course forced me to use shots normally reserved for across the pond and the sagebrush whipped lands of Kansas and Nebraska. The same holes played 1-2 clubs differently from the 1st to 2nd rounds. The greens were running as fast as they ever had (at least 10 everywhere to 13 in spots) and the fairways were fairly firm. I could have played until dark and not once did I feel tired(even on the steps of 14).
   Surely I plead guilty to being a FH fan, but it is deserved and earned. The Bridge made me yearn for Atlantic. The latter is a more complete and testing track, albeit with lesser vistas.
Simply put, what we have here is a dichotic and diametrically opposite result of two architects getting magnificent properties and waving their brushes over them. Thus an easy comparison evolves and one that becomes less and less flattering over time. I liken it to looking at late Warhol (Rees) and early Johns (C & C); both artists, but one lacks soul while the other worships it. ;D
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 02:54:56 PM by Happy Gilmore »

Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2003, 01:11:11 PM »
Happy,

Nice review, very thoughtful, great detail.  

TEPaul

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2003, 02:11:45 PM »
mitchgolf said:

"Happy,
Nice review, very thoughtful, great detail."

And probably a review that very shortly will be crucified by Pat Mucci as the very definition of "bias", "double standard" and "most favored nation" mentality.

Basically Pat's philosophy is--if you say something nice about Coore & Crenshaw you have to say something equally nice about Rees Jones and Tom Fazio or you're exhibiting bias and a double standard!   ;)  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2003, 02:28:05 PM »
TEPaul,

I've never seen or played The Bridge, so I'm unqualified to comment on the golf course, unlike others on this site.

What I am curious about is:

How can you make the above statement if you've never played The Bridge ?

How can you tell if Happy Gilmore's assessment is accurate if you've never played the golf course ?

Or do you automatically side with anyone extolling the virtues of a C&C golf course compared to any other, even if you've never played the other  ??

Do I sense a bias on your part ?   ;D

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2003, 02:50:27 PM »
Laughable, Mucci, laughable ::) ::)



What I am curious about is:

How can you make the above statement if you've never played The Bridge ?


What statement?  I'm confused.  The statement about mitchgolf statement or the OTHER statement?  Terribly confused...


How can you tell if Happy Gilmore's assessment is accurate if you've never played the golf course?

What do you mean?  If TEPaul WAS indeed bring biased he would get on his high horse and say that Happy Gilmore is wrong, even though Happy can never be wrong in his opinion.  Hmmm, something doesn't fit here.  I didn't know we had to play a golf course to be allowed to readily discount someone else's opinion?

Or do you automatically side with anyone extolling the virtues of a C&C golf course compared to any other, even if you've never played the other?

Again,

When did TEPaul offer ANY opinion other than...."nice review"

Quote

It's silly
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2003, 03:11:29 PM »
Happy Gilmore,

Can you tell us a little more about your experience at Friar's Head?  What are your favorite holes?  I have heard great things regarding the practice facilities there as well, how are they and the Par 3 course?  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2003, 03:22:07 PM »
MDugger,

Confusion seems to be a state that you constantly reside in.

How did I get brought into this thread ?
on my own ?
or did TEPaul drag me into it ...
alleging that I would make comments about a bias in the "Friar's Head versus The Bridge" analysis, when TEPaul knows perfectly well that I haven't played The Bridge, and won't comment on the course until I do play it, hence, I have no frame of reference for evaluating Happy's comments.

Although, I don't view a turning of the winds as something done at the hands of the architect, or something they should get credit for.

TEPaul can fend for himself, and doesn't need help from the peanut gallery to bolster his views.

Wait... is that Buffalo Bob calling you ????   ;D

P.S.   Work on your reading comprehension skills.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 03:23:30 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JerryZuckerman

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2003, 03:26:50 PM »
I couldn't agree more! Isn't it obvious that there was a little friendly ball-busting going on between messers. Mucci and Paul then your either a little slow on the uptake or you plain just don't get it because of too much drugs.

Get a life dugger.

Happy Gilmore

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2003, 03:33:22 PM »
Hey Jerry,

Reading your other query for where Eric Gleacher donates his money makes me think the same for you! ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2003, 03:37:48 PM »
Jerry Zuckerman,

If you have to explain it to someone, not only does it mean that they didn't get it, but, that they probably won't get it in the future, either.

If one looked carefully at TEPaul's post, they would have seen the smiley face at the end of it, and the same on my post.

Sadly, many now understand that TEPaul and I are friends and like to bust each other at every opportunity.
Others however, fail to get it.

Enjoy the site, learn, teach and laugh.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 03:38:35 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2003, 06:30:52 PM »
No, I get it loud and clear.  I have the whole time.

Haven't you figured out by now that I simply don't like the way you convey yourself on this website?  Some may call our banter a vendetta, I call it a crusade.

Pat, you are potential wasted.  Big ol' cranium full of stuff, poor communication skills.
 
Pat's favorite golf course: Myopia Hunt Club  

If I read "how disingenous of you" on one of your posts but one more time I'm going to off myself.

"I'm unqualified to comment on the course because I haven't played it."  ARRRGGGHHHH >:(

You are right, I'm no rocket scientist, but I do know how to communicate.  You say I don't get it and am stupid.  Ok, fine, chalk up another insult for the Mucci team. I guess I'm just a doped up little hippie from Oregon who has attended too many dead shows, eh?

If you continue to drag my name through the mud over the Sandpines thing.  I continue to hound you.

Sandpines was wasted potential.

Cite the million reasons why I'm wrong (oblique dunes, $$$, developer, etc.), it doesn't matter.  I use to think that this was a website about golf course architecture....both good and bad.  Now I understand it is about politics.  Goes without saying everyone understands the "Mucci agenda."

You are lowering the ceiling if you think Sandpines should be looked at as a good course.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  I can understand educating us as to WHY it is what it is, but what it is is still a major bummer.

You can't admit it, though, and instead you choose to continue dragging MY NAME through the mud because I took a position opposite yours.    

I get it, I got it back then, it reaks of old boys club.  

Like I said, it's a crusade





What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2003, 07:33:33 PM »
MDugger,

Go back and re-read this thread in the sequence of the posts.
Then ask yourself who started the attack, you did.
Well, actually TEPaul did, but, he put a  >:(, which indicated he was jesting, as did I.

You threw the gauntlet, and now you complain when I join in the battle.  You can't believe that you're exempt from retaliation.

You can't go crying "foul" when you instigate, insult and direct stupid posts at other people.
If you're going to dish it out, you've got to learn to take it.

Even if I overlooked the Sandpines issue, need I remind you of your posts on and off line to Geoff Childs or Jerry Zuckerman ?

Are you the person who told Jerry Zuckerman to "blow me", now telling me that I lack communication skills ????

Surely, you see the absurdity of your advice, both in the context of your actions and your methods of communication.

Focus on the issues and stop trying to even the score with me
and we'll all be better off.

TEPaul

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2003, 09:11:29 PM »
"How can you make the above statement if you've never played The Bridge?"

Pat:

My above statement has nothing to do with me playing the golf course or giving my opinion of the golf course. I didn't say a thing about either golf course. All I said is you'd probably be on here shortly claiming that Happy Gilmore's post exhibited bias, double standard and most favored nation status on here for Coore and Crenshaw and against Rees Jones. The reason I said that has nothing to do with playing the course and everything to do with the fact that you've been singing this bias and double standard song every time Coore and Crenshaw and Rees are mentioned on the same thread.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2003, 09:17:05 PM »
TEPaul,

How could I maintain that if I never saw the golf course ?

I think it's a matter of the record that one architect has been villified for just about everything he has done, and the others deified for just about everything they have done.

One only has to read the "EMPEROR" thread to understand what goes on, or have I missed something over the last three years ?

Have I had nothing but good things to say about Friar's Head and Hidden Creek, or did you miss my posts on those golf courses ??
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 09:32:54 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Happy Gilmore

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2003, 09:38:09 PM »
Jimmy VA,

    The practice facility at FH is quite likely the best of its kind in the US (or the world perhaps). There are over 30+ hitting stations with 5+ target green complexes(complete with bunkers), a pair of chipping and pitching greens beautifully crowned and set into an enormous sand dune/cliff that permts any type of bunker work imaginable. The practice putting green is the size of several typically over-the-top Hampton's manses put together. Seriously, the putting green might well be in excess of 25,000 sq. ft. It also has a world class calm yellow lab(Gus) who drools all over anyone who needs it.
   All of this with perfectly sized (20-30) bags of practice Pro V-1's (all equipped with radio transmtters programmed to tell Jim or Kenny they are in use on the course  ;). What they do have as a deliberate consequence is the reminder that one only needs a handful of balls to warm up. All in, it puts PVGC to shame.
    The par 3 is lots of fun and was designed with children in mind (I am perfect for it! ;D). It is on the small side and doesn't quite rise to the level of others of its type (i.e PVGC, Hamilton Farm or ANGC). It is fun however and fits in perfectly.

Pat, Tom, et.al.,

   I obviously have seen FH several times before and am thus inclined to bow in Ken's direction for the most part, but I really did reserve any judgement for the Bridge until post both rounds. I really don't respect either of you guys anyway so who really cares! ;) ;) ;D

TEPaul

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2003, 05:31:18 AM »
Pat:

There's no question about the things that've been said on here by certain people about Coore and Crenshaw's and Rees Jones's golf courses and architecture.

The thing that fascinated me though is how you conclude those opinions constitute a double standard. Didn't it ever occur to you that perhaps some people just happen to really like the courses and architecture of Coore & Crenshaw and don't like the architecture of Rees Jones?

I don't see that as constituting a double standard. To me it even exhibits a single consistent standard such as "I generally like the work of Coore & Crenshaw and I generally don't like the work of Rees Jones." Somehow that apparently hasn't occured to you.

TEPaul

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2003, 05:34:58 AM »
"I really don't respect either of you guys anyway so who really cares!"

Well, thanks for that gratuitous remark, Happy, and henceforth the feeling will be mutual, I'm sure.  :)    

Happy Gilmore

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2003, 05:52:41 AM »
Aw Tom,

   Actually we've met before (the FH parking lot/Aronimink) and do like each other...I just like stirring the pot. I've met Pat as well, but ????? :D ;D

Alex

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2003, 07:37:36 AM »
Happy,
 Excellent accessment! I agree, Rees missed the boat big time.
 I heard the super convinced Rees to remove all the bluegrass [which was wall to wall in spring of 2002] and add the fescue.
All the times I've played, has been in perfect condition. Great job George T.

GeoffreyC

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2003, 08:47:51 AM »
Happy

How's the old slapshot?

I have not played the Bridge yet (actually turned down an invite to play it today- I'd never do that for Friar's Head!) but your description of the practice facilities and atmosphere at FH is spot on perfect. The par 3 is fun with its Maxwell influenced greens and some holes probably could be played from different directions. It is just a world class facility.

Happy Gilmore

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2003, 08:53:46 AM »
Alex,

   No question...George Tiska, the superintendent at the Bridge has done a phenomenal job in presenting the best possible maintainence meld available to the terrain. His work left me quite impressed and I can only surmise that without him, this Rees Jones layout would be universally panned.

Geoff,

   I'm working on my Barker right cross! When we last talked, you were just leaving ye olde FH...I hope you are enjoying the last dog days of August.

  Redanman,
 
     You are absolutely right about the "flattering" 76 slope. The elevation changes do make length managable. I do still think it was a "great piece of land" as the soil is sandy perfect and if Rees had used the hilly terrain better (especially after he knew no other or public course would be permitted to be built) and used parts of the property along the bottom flats(left side on way in)..it might have turned out soooo..much better. Too bad, as I hate to see any eastern LI land wasted like this.

NewsFlash: Did hear that the owner of the new Bayberry land might reconsider using Nicklaus ;D ;D ;D

All for Grandma ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 08:59:19 AM by Happy Gilmore »

Happy Gilmore

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2003, 09:27:40 AM »
NewsFlash: Did hear that the owner of the new Bayberry land might reconsider using Nicklaus ;D ;D ;D

The disappointment that I felt when I finally saw Muirfield Village in person last month only further enhances the feeling of joy that would bring to this curmudgeon.  With all due respect, I would hate to see a modern "masterpiece" next to SH and NGLA.  Personally, I'd rather not see another golf course there at all.  

COULD NOT AGREE MORE...let's ban Bayberry...until further notice! :o

Matt_Ward

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2003, 01:25:20 PM »
It amuses me when people say that The Bridge is not at the level of Shinnecock Hills, National, and now Friar's Head. My answer is so what? Does that mean the course is a bonafide turkey! I dare say no.

First, let me state that I have not played Friar's Head to date, but the issue of that course's standing is not my point or focus. I have played The Bridge no less than twice -- the second time coming yesterday and I concur with those who have stated about the turf aspects provided for by George Tiska -- The Bridge is in marvelous shape and the greens were extremely firm and fast when I played. Heaven help anyone who doesn't nip their iron shots crisply.

Second, after playing the course a second time I will agree that from the standpoint of a design that's architecturally compelling / significant The Bridge is not at the highest level. Rather, The Bridge is a course that is a demanding test of golf and I dare say to my friend redanman that if the course is not a "flattering" 76.1 -- which it is from the checkered flag tee boxes -- what would you rate it as? 75.0? 74.0? I would daye say The Bridge is one of the most demanding and toughest courses to play from the tips in the metro area. You must have a solid tee game and constantly avoid steering the long shot. You do have moments where low scores can ba had, however, there are other equal areas during the round where high numbers can come extremely quickly.

Also, when redanman says the course yardage is really 6,900 yards instead of the posted 7,341 yards I wonder did you factor into the equation the uphill holes that one must play. What about the numerous elevated greens you are forced to hit? Oh, forgive me -- I guess one only remembers the
downhill holes.

The Bridge is a demanding test of golf -- it is not easy by any means and you had best be hitting your driver with consistency for both power and placement. Let me also mention that if you should begin to spray the driver and if your iron game is deficient and you should venture near to the bunkers that dot the landscape you will have a helluva tough trying to recover -- if one does. The Bridge never suffers the foolish play. I will admit that the course is for the most part one dimensional in that the tee game strategic elements are for the most part one way oriented with the use of the driver. Mixing up the sequence of holes would have served the course better.

I do concur with those who have said that the site, while clearly scenic, doesn't have the sophistication or maximum design aspects you would see with other more noted courses on the east end of the island. The walking aspect of the course is also quite problematic because of the hikes you need to make between certain holes although I understand that there were reasons for this. Does that then make The Bridge some dog food layout? Hardly.

I don't doubt that The Bridge has a good deal of man's hand through shaping and the like. There has been much discussion about the mounding that is part of the course so I won't go over that point again here. Nonetheless, people that I read here take the tone that since The Bridge doesn't have the qualities of Friar's Head then ipso facto the course is just "another" Rees Jones disappointment. That is rubbish. Does one forget holes such as the 3rd? The 4th is also quite good with its decision at the tee? The 6th is a strong uphill par-4? What of the 10th? The long par-4's at the 13th and 15th? Shall I name others?

I have played a good number of Rees Jones designs (between 25-30 -- not the spot analysis that some provide) and besides places such as Olde Kinderhook -- in my mind the Albany area layout is a top 100 course IMHO -- I would rate The Bridge as being one of his better works and I would still hole to my proposition that it belong among the top five courses I have played on the Island -- oh, by the way, before others chirp in about other courses -- please search your memory banks for the weak and pedestrian holes at those places too -- including the one located in East Hampton that's always a top 100 pick.

Just because a course doesn't make the top 100 (how many can -- although C&C's Hidden Creek did?) doesn't mean it's bad by any means. I also played Briar's Creek in South Carolina (another RJ design) -- which won best new private by GD a year ago --and while I liked that course a lot I would still vote for The Bridge as a better test and design. I also reviewed the state listings for New York and I chuckle that The Bridge is rated sooooo much lower than a number of other courses that are simply getting by through name recognition and the fact that they are "older" more "traditional" courses.

The east end of Long Island is arguably the greatest location for courses in the USA and The Bridge -- while not perfect (how many courses are?) -- is still a fine test of golf that has its highlights and areas for improvement. Guess what -- my last line for areas of improvement goes for just about all courses that I know -- including the "most favored ones" that always seem to be touted upon here on GCA.


Nigel_Walton

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2003, 01:36:23 PM »
Mr Ward, are you yourself exhibiting bias by not playing Friar's Head? ;D Surely a man as well traveled as you are has had  many opportunities to do so?

T.J. Sturges

Re:The Bridge at Bridgehampton and/vs. Friar's Head
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2003, 03:47:21 PM »
To Matt Ward:

Interesting post.  

It begs the following questions:

1.  How would you improve Shinnecock?
2.  How would you improve NGLA?

TS

PS:  Still waiting for your list of courses that "used to be great" (although it sounds like Maidstone is to be on your list).