Cabot Cliffs, World Top 10?

[Gary Sato]

Matt Ginella called Cabot Cliffs a World top 10 golf course this morning.  Although he has the greatest boon doggle job in television, I don't value his architectural opinions with much value.

Which course comes out if Cabot Cliffs goes in?  Golf Magazine has the world top 10 as;

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Augusta
St Andrews
Shinnecock
Royal County Down
Pebble Beach
Oakmont
Merion
Muirfield

followed by,
NGLA
Sand Hills
Royal Melbourne

[Garland Bayley]

Pebble Muddy Beach comes out.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Or, one could argue that since it's the newest, the oldest should be removed.

[With tongue planted firmly in cheek.]

[David_Elvins]

All good course look better during construction.  The observer imagines that all the features and strategies work perfectly.  When it comes to playing the course, the faults start to be exposed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Does the course still have 6 par threes?  Top ten executive course no doubt.  Isn't it obvious that the cliffs are being over used with all the par threes?

[jeffwarne]

Yep, right along with Doral, Whistling Straits, Old head and TPC Cartgirl
or wherever else he's just been comped

[Carl Johnson]

Does the course still have 6 par threes?  Top ten executive course no doubt.  Isn't it obvious that the cliffs are being over used with all the par threes?

From Golf Advisor: "Unique to Cabot Cliffs will be it's 6-6-6 routing of par 3s, 4s and 5s. There will be a number of exceptional holes, but the early pick for signature hole has to be the par-3 16th, which features a tee shot played over the ocean to a green guarded in front by jagged cliffs. It's certain to become one of the most famous par 3s in North America."  (Emphasis added.)  Wonder how it will compare with No. 2 at Ardglass, Northern Ireland (not North America).

[Tim Gavrich]

Isn't having Golf Channel devote a chunk of time to discussing architecture--especially that of Coore & Crenshaw--a good thing? Why the derision?

I wonder how many skeptics there were whenever early Sand Hills fans started asserting that the course was one of the best in the world.

[Declan Kavanagh]

100% agree Tim.  As a causal GCA member I am no expert on golf course architecture but here are my thoughts:

Golf is the thing I love most in the world and I would love to see more mainstream coverage of golf course design and history rather than 24/7 coverage of the PGA Tour and the golf fix crap.  I became addicted to golf while caddying at Shinnecock and I love nothing more than classic courses.  Yes, the original designers were pioneers and luminaries in the golf world and I think it is truly amazing that more than half of the holes they created still challenge the best of golfers but golf is a completely different game than it was when those courses were built.  I heard a story the other day that a U.S. OpenWith that being said, there are some modern courses that I believe would stand up with the best of the old courses if we were to introduce someone who knew no history to the game for 20 years and then ask him/her what the best 100 courses in the world are.  Aside from the Oakmont argument, courses were sub 7-8 on the Stimpmeter until the '80's and '90's.  Such made possible for greens that you see at NGLA.  Now, they have greens with 5-10% total pinnable locations. 

What I am getting at is that while some new courses are terrible, others are epic.  My gauge of a course is not simply it's architecture but more so the emotions it elicits throughout each and every round.  If told I could only play one course for the rest of my life it would be Shinnecock, but if you told me it would be Arcadia Bluffs, I'd be pretty excited.

Playing in 10 hours and can barely sleep.  It has only been just over a week but I cannot wait for another crack at Donald Ross tomorrow.

[Gary Sato]

Pebble Muddy Beach comes out.

I agree except the history would make it tough to drop.  Not sure the general public sees the cart paths, the numerous weak holes and Palmers rabid bunker work as a negative.

[Mike Hendren]

Our group was featured in Golf Digest's buddies trip series a few years ago. Matt joined us at World Woods and spent the night with us at the Chaz Motel dining and watching NCAA hoops.  I found him to be a very nice guy who at the time knew surprisingly little about golf course architecture.  I can't speak for his knowledge now but I suspect he's fairly impressionable and prone to a little hyperbole as he's in the "high-five" phase of his golf architecture education.  

Bogey  

[Peter Pallotta]

More than a little hyperbole, no? Macdonald's NGLA was being praised lavishly before it opened too, but at least observers back then limited themselves to claiming it was the finest course in the country. Who couldn't like and be excited about a C&C by the sea -- but really, too much is too much when "a world top 10" gets tossed about like confetti.

Peter

[Jim Nugent]

Our group was featured in Golf Digest's buddies trip series a few years ago. Matt joined us at World Woods and spent the night with us at the Chaz Motel dining and watching NCAA hoops.  I found him to be a very nice guy who at the time knew surprisingly little about golf course architecture.  I can't speak for his knowledge now but I suspect he's fairly impressionable and prone to a little hyperbole as he's in the "high-five" phase of his golf architecture education.  

Bogey  

It can't hurt to get flown to the course in the owner's private jet... and play a pre-opening round with Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw. 

[Bill_McBride]

Pebble Muddy Beach comes out.

I agree except the history would make it tough to drop.  Not sure the general public sees the cart paths, the numerous weak holes and Palmers rabid bunker work as a negative.

"Numerous weak holes?"   Not to go all Mucci on you, but have you played Pebble Beach?  Do you really think holes like 2, 3, 12, 13, 14, and 16 are weak?   They might be when compared to the oceanfront holes but they are still good holes.  The figure eight routing is genius the way it wraps the ocean and inland holes around each other. 

Not sure why Pebble Beach has fallen into disfavor, but it remains one of the iconic classics in the world.  How many times have we heard XYZ referred to as "the Pebble Beach of ......?”

[Ronald Montesano]

More than a little hyperbole, no? Macdonald's NGLA was being praised lavishly before it opened too, but at least observers back then limited themselves to claiming it was the finest course in the country. Who couldn't like and be excited about a C&C by the sea -- but really, too much is too much when "a world top 10" gets tossed about like confetti.

Peter

Any course that is the finest in the country is automatically a top-ten in the world, so the song remains the same.

[Terry Lavin]

I have twenty in my top ten. If I ever spend a couple weeks in New York/NJ/LI, I'd have thirty. This is hair-splitting at its finest.

[Jim Hoak]

I love the C&C courses I have played.  And I played Cabot Links and liked it very much.  And I got a tour of the land for Cabot Cliffs and thought the site was spectacular.  And I love the pictures I see of the course as it is completed.
BUT . . . no one knows how good a course is going to be till it is done--and even then probably not for a year or two till it settles in.  It is silly to be pronouncing it top 10 in the world when it isn't even open.  So let's all settle down.  I think it is going to be a very good course--maybe even great.  But we'll see.
And I think the bashing of Pebble Beach is absurd.  Is it the best course in the country?--probably not.  But it is a wonderful course--and great fun to play.  Sometimes the bandwagon gets going too fast on this website!

[Keith OHalloran]

Jim,
I agree that the bashing of Pebble is ridiculous, but I disagree that a course has to be open for years for people to judge it. I think Tom Doak proclaimed Sand Hills to be one of his favorite course before it was opened, and he seems to be right on about that.

[Chris DeToro]

I certainly don't understand the bashing of Pebble Beach either.  It's a genius routing and the holes away from the ocean provide a little more variety.  If every hole were on the ocean, someone would complain about that too

Everything I've seen/heard about Cabot Cliffs makes me very excited to go see it as soon as it opens.  Whether it ends up being top 10 in the world, I'm not really sure, but all I do know is that I haven't been this excited for a course in a long time

[Bill_McBride]

I certainly don't understand the bashing of Pebble Beach either.  It's a genius routing and the holes away from the ocean provide a little more variety.  If every hole were on the ocean, someone would complain about that too

Everything I've seen/heard about Cabot Cliffs makes me very excited to go see it as soon as it opens.  Whether it ends up being top 10 in the world, I'm not really sure, but all I do know is that I haven't been this excited for a course in a long time

Going to play Cabot Cliffs is a no brainer partly because in Cabot Links there is already a world class course.  In Louisiana they would call Cabot Cliffs a lagniappe, a special extra thrown into the pot.  It's going to be a great week long trip, with an overnight to Highland Links thrown in to complete the deal. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

From the photos, I still like the look of the Cabot Links site more so than that for Cabot Cliffs...

[Bill_McBride]

From the photos, I still like the look of the Cabot Links site more so than that for Cabot Cliffs...

Mike Whitaker and I agreed the site and sea views of the first course are very similar to Royal Porthcawl, and the par 5s are much superior.  Cabot Cliffs will have some spectacular holes.

[Matt Kardash]

From the photos, I still like the look of the Cabot Links site more so than that for Cabot Cliffs...

I agree. The site for the Cliffs is more spectacular and may well produce the better course. However, there is something about Cabot Links which is just so intimate and charming.

[Mike Bowen]

Terry's comment about 20 in his top ten is spot on.  We are talking about A+ courses.  Could a course ever be in the top 10 in the world before it's 10th birthday.  I think to get a true reading of how great a course is you would need to go 30 to 50 years into the future.  But by then I will be remodelling Pac Dunes at home on my simulator.

[Howard Riefs]

Matt Ginella called Cabot Cliffs a World top 10 golf course this morning.  Although he has the greatest boon doggle job in television, I don't value his architectural opinions with much value.

If you're once again going to throw out one of your haymakers (e.g., Arnold Palmer is a hypocrite), you could at least take the time to present an accurate account of what Matt said:

"I've said (before) that (Cabot Cliffs) could debut as a top 10 course in North America .... I left there (this week) having walked all 18 holes and I feel like maybe it needs to expand to not just top 10 golf courses in North America but to top 10 golf course in the world. I think it will be in the conversation with the Pebble Beaches with the Cypress Points."

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/matt-ginella-discusses-progress-cabot-cliffs/

Use of the word "could" is not typically associated with absolutes.