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Brent Hutto

Now seems as good a time as any to mention that I'm spending a long weekend September 19-21 at Royal St. Davids and would LOVE SOME COMPANY. My afternoon tee times (Fri-Sat-Sun) are 2pm-ish and mornings 9am-ish (Sat-Sun) and I'm booked as a one-ball so room for anyone who'd care to join me. You may see the odd dodgy golf swing or chipping stroke but the course is very fine and seems to have weathered this tough winter with no major damage.

http://www.royalstdavids.co.uk/en/content/cms/visitor_information/visitor_information.aspx

With reference to a couple other threads currently running, links golf in that part of Wales is a relative bargain even at weekends. I believe the per-round rate is 59 pounds or 69 pounds for a 36-hole day ticket. I'm staying on a package deal with three nights in their dormie accomodation and three days of golf. I believe there may be other rooms available on some or all of those nights. But even at the walk-up rack rate there's a pretty short lists of links courses as good or better than Harlech for equal or less than 60 quid!

You might also be interesting in the greenskeeper's "blog" which documents their winter improvement programme (sp?) with a few snapshots and detailed descriptions. Most of the changes are likely to meet Treehouse approval with removal of scrub and a few trees, scraping away fertile topsoil that has accumulated on top of the native sand and basically opening up around greens and between greens and tees where ever possible. Good stuff!

http://royalstdavidsgolflinksteam.blogspot.com/

P.S. I'm also playing a morning round at Aberdovey on Monday the 22nd, another bargain at 47 pounds for the round. Not sure the disposition of the 12th green there, a portion of which was lost to winter storm damage.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 12:49:04 PM by Brent Hutto »

Brent Hutto

I thought I might bump this thread as my trip is now two months closer, albeit still nearly four months away.

I'd encourage folks to click on the above link to the Royal St. Davids greenskeeper's "blog" for interesting pictures and descriptions of the work that went on there over the winter.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sadly I can't join you Brent,


just a word of warning...don't get into any arguments with the locals, they breed real men up there! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjvKZHJeayg 
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Men of Harlech stop your weeping
Soon enough you will be teeing
See the pro shop, so appealing
To the links, afield

Men of Harlech lay a stymie
For the match is tight, so frightening
The opponent is not dormie
Welshman never yield

From the dunes, rebounding
Let this song be sounding
Summon Titleist and Bridgestone
Mulligans, for all

The mighty wind has blown us yonder
Men of Harlech forced to ponder
Take a loss and pay a fiver
Or just press away
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Brent Hutto

I don't know what to say, guys. As always, the sheer erudition and...how shall I put it...DAFTNESS of this group continues to astound me. Thank you all three for your invaluable cultural guidance.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
And this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4mIlYKG9s



atb

Reminds me of the Duke of Wellington reviewing his troops
 "I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me."


John "Mulligans" in Wales? They've all gone bloody soft, it's no wonder they've only managed 9 wins from their last 30 games against IRELAND! ;D
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
I will be too busy at my place to join Brent but anyone with the chance should join him as the courses are excellent choices and I am sure his company would be equally enjoyable.

Jon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
49 to the greens, 65 to the reds since fixture inception.

My suspicion however, irrespective of whether the shirt is red, green, dark blue or even light blue, or these days, very light blue from the Continent, is that only one fixture really matters, the one against the whites.

However, in many ways the most enjoyable of all is when the reds and the greens and the dark blues and yes, even the whites, join forces to venture to the Southern Hemisphere. Results from such ventures may historically favour those from the south in black or gold or green, but the event is wonderful. Long may it continue.

Enjoy R-St-D Brent, and Aberdyfi too.

atb

Brent Hutto

Final pre-trip thread "bump".

Weekend after next I'll be at Royal St. Davids on Fri-Sat-Sun. Solo tee times are booked but if anyone fancies a game and can make their way to Harlech I'd love the company.

Also Aberdyfi the morning of Monday, 22 Sept.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've once more heard they are planning to widen the storm damaged short 12th at Aberdovey by widening the green on the landward side. Any confirmation or more details established by soon to be visitors would be appreciated.
Have a great time.
atb
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 11:51:08 AM by Thomas Dai »

Brent Hutto

Interesting.

I'm not much for photo-taking when on a golf holiday, mostly because my pictures are generally of poor quality and not worth the distraction. But I'll definitely catch some snapshot of the twelfth when I get there.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Brent Hutto

You know how some people arrive at Bandon or St. Andrews and start gushing about how they knew at once they were in Golf Heaven?

Well I just got off the train at Harlech, checked in at their Dormy and I have found MY version of Heaven. Right now I am sprawled on my bed facing out the window at a foursome teeing off hardly over 50 feet away. 63F, a slight breeze, sunshine and a golf course looking to be in perfect condition.

My tee time is in one hour so I think I will grab a quick nap before heading out!!

Wow.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hope you enjoy the game Brett.

Brent Hutto

Just back from my long-weekend golf trip in Wales. Five rounds over three days at Harlech so I've formed a pretty solid opinion regarding Royal St. Davids. Aberdovey left me very favorably impressed but it was a one-round hit-and-run, making it hard to say how my impression of the course might evolve over a few more rounds.

Bottom line summary first:

1) Harlech is clearly the better of the two golf courses but I found Aberdovey more fun to play.

2) Given a choice to play one round only at one of the two courses I would choose Harlech. More variety, more challenge, more spectacular surroundings and incredible undulation in the ground.

3) Given the proverbial "10 rounds" question I would probably play 6 at Aberdovey and 4 and Harlech (provisional on the fact that I'm going off a brief first impression of Aberdovey).

A few more random comments.

A 36-hole day at Harlech is too much for this double-digit handicapper. The course is very, very tough and by the 9th or 10th hole on the second round of the day my game just gets beat down. Plus it is physically the more tiring of the two courses to walk. I think it's because the most up-and-down parts comes late in the round at Harlech.

One thread or another made mention of Aberdovey having "gathering" greens (or some similar term). Several of them do fit that description and many of the holes without "gathering" contours around them are at least flat and low-profile without the tendency for balls to shoulder off on one or more sides. That said, there are also some tiered greens where being on the wrong shelf means a likely three-putt.

Royal St. Davids reminds me a LOT of Royal Cinque Ports. And I mean that as a compliment to Harlech! The last four holes are built over the sort of humpity-bumpity ground that makes up the final stretch at Deal. And the entire course has a similar degree of undulation (although the turf quality at Deal is probably a fraction nicer). There's even a sunken green (15th hole) that reminds me of the similar green on the front nine at RCP. Harlech struck me from the very first round as a slightly scruffier variant of the same type course as Deal.

There's one way in which Royal St. Davids is very different, though. The Par 3's are absolutely brutal. My eclectic score after five rounds at Harlech is six over par (even though I had two holes with birdies) and it's mostly due to the 14th hole where I never managed better than double-bogey and was in my pocket time after time. As a set, someone who could average maybe a couple over par on the one-shotters at Deal would be fortunate to play the set of Par 3's at Harlech in five or six over. And a big number is lurking on at least three of them.

Aberdovey is a much more pleasant walk. And unlike Royal St. Davids a poor shot at Aberdovey almost always allows some sort of possibility of saving par. At Harlech there are already so many "half-par on the plus side" holes that any ball in a bunker or the rough tends to make double bogey a very likely outcome. And Aberdovey has a couple of frankly pushover holes (like the 16th if played sensibly with mid-iron then wedge) while at Harlech about the easiest prospects are probably #2 and #16, both of which are easier pars than the rest of the course but certainly no pushovers.

I will post a few comments on the recently damaged twelfth at Aberdovey shortly...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just back from my long-weekend golf trip in Wales. Five rounds over three days at Harlech so I've formed a pretty solid opinion regarding Royal St. Davids. Aberdovey left me very favorably impressed but it was a one-round hit-and-run, making it hard to say how my impression of the course might evolve over a few more rounds.

Bottom line summary first:

1) Harlech is clearly the better of the two golf courses but I found Aberdovey more fun to play.

2) Given a choice to play one round only at one of the two courses I would choose Harlech. More variety, more challenge, more spectacular surroundings and incredible undulation in the ground.

3) Given the proverbial "10 rounds" question I would probably play 6 at Aberdovey and 4 and Harlech (provisional on the fact that I'm going off a brief first impression of Aberdovey).

A few more random comments.

A 36-hole day at Harlech is too much for this double-digit handicapper. The course is very, very tough and by the 9th or 10th hole on the second round of the day my game just gets beat down. Plus it is physically the more tiring of the two courses to walk. I think it's because the most up-and-down parts comes late in the round at Harlech.

One thread or another made mention of Aberdovey having "gathering" greens (or some similar term). Several of them do fit that description and many of the holes without "gathering" contours around them are at least flat and low-profile without the tendency for balls to shoulder off on one or more sides. That said, there are also some tiered greens where being on the wrong shelf means a likely three-putt.

Royal St. Davids reminds me a LOT of Royal Cinque Ports. And I mean that as a compliment to Harlech! The last four holes are built over the sort of humpity-bumpity ground that makes up the final stretch at Deal. And the entire course has a similar degree of undulation (although the turf quality at Deal is probably a fraction nicer). There's even a sunken green (15th hole) that reminds me of the similar green on the front nine at RCP. Harlech struck me from the very first round as a slightly scruffier variant of the same type course as Deal.

There's one way in which Royal St. Davids is very different, though. The Par 3's are absolutely brutal. My eclectic score after five rounds at Harlech is six over par (even though I had two holes with birdies) and it's mostly due to the 14th hole where I never managed better than double-bogey and was in my pocket time after time. As a set, someone who could average maybe a couple over par on the one-shotters at Deal would be fortunate to play the set of Par 3's at Harlech in five or six over. And a big number is lurking on at least three of them.

Aberdovey is a much more pleasant walk. And unlike Royal St. Davids a poor shot at Aberdovey almost always allows some sort of possibility of saving par. At Harlech there are already so many "half-par on the plus side" holes that any ball in a bunker or the rough tends to make double bogey a very likely outcome. And Aberdovey has a couple of frankly pushover holes (like the 16th if played sensibly with mid-iron then wedge) while at Harlech about the easiest prospects are probably #2 and #16, both of which are easier pars than the rest of the course but certainly no pushovers.

I will post a few comments on the recently damaged twelfth at Aberdovey shortly...

Brent,
Glad you enjoyed your trip.
Hope you remembered to close the gate at Aberdovey ;)

I'm a bit confused about statement #1.
If Harlech is "clearly" the "better" course, but you found Aberdovey "more fun"........
I have to question why you play the game.
Presumably for fun, no?

and is Harlech "tougher" or do they simply let the rough grow taller?
In many ways, with the exception of the last 4 holes at Harlech, I found it much like playing in mowed out areas of an open deep grass  field, a bit like the parts of Muirfield I found less than compelling, and certainly zero fun for the mid handicaps I had in tow.


One thing is for certain, if we consistently rate tough, knee deep rough native adorned courses as "better",
we're sure to get more ::) ::)


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brent

Glad you enjoyed Harlech and Aberdovey, both are fine courses.

I think I am opposite to you though.  I think Aberdovey with its new bunkers (comfortably the best looking bunker re-do job I have seen), a few oddball holes and more interesting greens just about pips Harlech, but I prefer Harlech as a course because I like the tough half par holes.  To be fair though, there isn't much to choose between the two.  I am a sucker for short yardage/short par courses that play tough so I give Harlech the personal nod.  

I would gladly go back to either course.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 08:48:35 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Jeff,

They actually had substantial areas of rough mowed down to a playable level at Harlech. There were quite a few shots where I flared a driver far enough left (lefty block-push) that I was sure I'd be in the knee deep junk but found it in areas that seemed to have been fairly recently knocked back to a much lower cut.

The bramble-covered dunes and somewhat in play areas of knee-deep rough at Harlech is a negative in my view. Those elements made it "less fun" than Aberdovey. But honestly there were pretty ample fairways and there was that intermediate hacked-down stuff that kept it from being a total slog.

The "better course" label has more to do with the shot on offer from the fairway. I found myself with a huge proportion of shots being on a slight upslope or downslope or diagonal slope lie at Harlech. The number of flat-lie (or nearly so) shots per round at Aberdovey seems much higher by comparison. And on those final four holes it seemed there was always a hill or a bit of a dune blocking me off from a full view of the green when hitting my approach.

There's one other thing happened over and over at Harlech but not so much at Aberdovey. There's something about the dune ridge to one side and that enormous hill looming on the other that rendered me totally unable to correctly assess where "uphill" was on the putting greens. Green after green was fooling me even after three or four rounds and I think it was due to the otherworldly sense of the overall terrain. I never realized how much the general surroundings seem to influence my intuition about putting line and pace.

So anyway the "better" evaluation is mostly about the undulations and the tricky greens. Not about what happens to balls in the deep rough. But the fact that Aberdovey does have less of the really penal rough is a plus in its favor and certainly adds to the fun.

Sean,

One drawback to my hit-and-run at Aberdovey (only on the property for 5-1/2 hours total, including breakfast and lunch) was that I failed to fully experience the bunkers. I had to hit a shot out of the fairway bunker on that short Par 4 (is it the eighth hole?) and that's the only time my ball touched sand. So I can tell you all about the bunkers at Harlech but didn't get the benefit of checking out the new Aberdovey ones!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 08:33:13 AM by Brent Hutto »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good stuff Brent.
To be fair, I know Aberdovey about as well as you now know Harlech, and only played Harlech once.
I only had time to return to one this summer and opted for Aberdovey, which paired with an evening jaunt around Borth on the way down the coast was a wonderful day.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brent Hutto

Let me gnaw on this question for one more moment.

Maybe I'm talking about two different kinds of fun. At Aberdovey I joined up with another visitor playing solo and we spent as much time talking as paying attention to the shot at hand. So I pretty much walked up, grabbed whatever club I thought might be a good one and hit the ball. Surprisingly often those shots turned out good, maybe even better than they seemed when they were in the air.

Aberdovey is a great "hit it, find it, hit it again" type course. Which in my book is fun.

At Harlech most shots just seemed more complicated than that. And honestly, a ball could look good in the air and end up exactly where I didn't want to be. Harlech seems to really reward a careful selection of clubs and shots (or at least it does quite often). It's necessary to do more of the "miss it in the right places" thing at Harlech.

But you know, a course that makes you play smart shots is fun too. Perhaps I'm wrong to term that sort of fun "better" than the kind of fun that comes from everything being more straightforward.

P.S. It's also possible my next couple rounds at Aberdovey result in it seeming much more complicated that it did my first time. Wouldn't be the first course where I've had a good round with no worries the first time I see it, then later figure out that it ain't really that easy!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think Aberdovey with its new bunkers (comfortably the best looking bunker re-do job I have seen).

Just to pick up on this aspect because I too was most impressed with the Aberdovey bunkering. Shaggy faced and with the message "I'm a hazard, best keep away from me or else..."

One of the more hidden aspects to Aberdovey IMO are the ditches. There are many of them and they come into play more than perhaps expected. Hidden or half hidden by long grass they are too and thus not easy to spot, even after consulting the course guide.

No fairways sprinklers at Aberdovey - yippee!!! :) - so firm and fast and the ground game is still possible. I played there earlier in the year with a senior gent who used a putter numerous times from 1-to-40 yds off the green and with great accuracy to, and his putter was a hickory shafted blade style of 1930's vintage.

Here's a Aberdovey wind direction tip given to me by a local - check the course map closely for the course isn't actually straight out-and-back like it may first appear to the senses. It's on a curve and the 1st and 9th holes, which seem to the brain to be at 90* to one another, actually point in the same direction. A tip worth considering at other links courses too perhaps, as many are actually on a curve not a straight line.

Looking forward to hearing Brent's comments about the 12th green.

atb

Brent Hutto

Thomas,

I do have a few more Aberdovey thoughts, twelfth green and otherwise.

Regarding wind direction, my subjective experience was that the wind picked up from the merest zephyr when we teed off to about a full one-club breeze while at the same time shifting direction gradually. But now I realize that apparent directional shift was almost certainly the nearly imperceptible curvature  of the routing.

On holes six and and seven it was behind us and slightly off the left. Then from the left on #9. The tenth through twelfth holes were straight into the breeze (by then a definite "one more club" proposition) but by the time we reached 16-18 it was more of a crosswind.

Until seeing your comment I was thinking we had just gotten lucky that right as the wind picked up to 10+ mph over those last few holes it quit being in our face. That wasn't a lucky shift but simply that the direction of play changed without us noticing. It's subtle enough to pass unnoticed by the player on the ground.

About putting from off the green, that shot was in play at both Aberdovey and Harlech but at Aberdovey much easier to judge beyond the usual 10 feet or so. I putted from 10 yards short of the green once and about 15 yards another time. After lunch one of the members was being congratulated on his birdie on the seventeenth which he accomplished by putting from (by his reckoning) about 50 feet short of the green and into the hole.

I had two encounters with the ditches. An absolutely awful tee shot on #11 flew directly into the quite obvious ditch on the right of the fairway (only about 170 yards off the tee). And a very well struck one on #17 cut off a bit too much of the left corner. It was pushed further left by that crossing breeze, took one hop in the rough and then into the ditch. Both were marked as lateral hazards. I still made 6 on the eleventh but managed two putts for 5 on the seventeenth (which I considered actually my finest hole of the day due to the miraculous long third shot after taking my penalty drop).

I can think of easily three other well struck shots that, if they had curved appreciably otherwise than I intended, would likely have found those hidden ditches. There are some places where you just have to play your desired tee shot even though a mishit brings the ditches into play. That is also true several places at Harlech by the way. But most of the holes at Harlech with ditches seem to leave a bit more room than at Aberdovey for giving them a safe margin without having to simply lay up. Some spots at Aberdovey if you wanted to take the ditches out of play on the tee shot you'd simply be bringing them into play with the second shot from too far back and so forth.

Now on to the twelfth hole. Your photos posted in a thread from earlier this summer do a better job than my snapshots from Monday of capturing the temporary fencing, temporary forward tees and the likely site of the to-be-built replacement green. We had people playing immediately behind us and I could not stop to achieve a suitable angle. My snaps are pretty much useless, looking through them now. The local rule for the temporary fencing is that it is "through the green". No free drop. If your tee shot (or second shot, god forbid) ends up against the fence you either play it as it lies or take an unplayable lie penalty.

The temporary yellow/white tee mat was by my reckoning about 110 yards from the center of the green with a forward mat more like 95-100 yards. I made a lucky guess playing a 9-iron which landed short of the green and stayed a foot or two short of the putting surface. If I had clubbed up with the 8-iron I suspect the ball would have landed well up into the green and bounced into severe trouble. I putted way too firmly and ran my second shot all the way off the back of the green (???) entailing a bogey after using the putter two more times to hole out. I think even from a 110 yard tee the over/under score on that hole would be at least bogey 4 as the green is teeny-tiny and was hard as any putting surface I've seen in quite a while. If I played there again tomorrow I might even opt to hit a pitching wedge several yards short of the green rather than risk landing on and bouncing who-knows-where. My playing companion for the day accidentally mishit his shot a good 15 yards short of the green on the upslope but made his eight-footer for par anyway.

P.S. I guess this is as good a place as any to brag about my birdie for the round. It was on the famous "Cader" blind Par 3. With a breath of a helping breeze I hit a 6-iron that must have landed on the very front of the green. The hole location was all the way back and I made my putt from pin-high and about eight feet left of the hole. My playing companion hit his tee shot pin-high right but missed his 10-footer. I would gather from those two shots that a back pin position is probably considered easier than front as there was nothing either of us high handicappers could have possibly done to keep our ball near the front of that green!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:28:59 PM by Brent Hutto »

Brent Hutto

In my babbling on about Aberdovey I see that I failed to gush about the 15th hole which I think is the best hole of its length that I saw on my entire vacation.

As I've done on previous occasions when visiting an unfamiliar course I mistook #15 as just a ridiculously long Par 4. It certainly didn't play any longer than some of the alleged two-shotters at Harlech!

So I hit my drive what I thought was about 99.9% as well as I'm capable of hitting a golf ball, then oriented myself with the Strokesaver and found that I still had nearly 170 yards remaining just to reach the little patch of fairway that starts 75 yards short of the green. Of course I failed to notice the "5" entry under "Par" or even the "477" yardage given for the yellow tees. Figured the drive must have been more upwind than it seemed.

I didn't fly 5,000 miles to lay up so what the heck I waled away with my longest fairway club and managed to scoot the ball up to within maybe 30 yards of the front of the green. From there an almost-perfect running pitch shot climbed the slope between the lower and upper tiers but came up inches short of the crest the rolled back 20 feet or so. From there a sloppy 3-putt left me with what I thought was a double-bogey six.

It wasn't until reviewing my Strokesaver in the clubhouse while waiting for lunch to be served that I realized this had been a Par 5. I know we preach that par doesn't matter but as a short hitter who has reached a total of three Par 5 holes in two shots (in 20+ years of golf) I must say it matters to me. Not that I'm proud of a six (that 3-putt wasted two beautiful shots) but as "half par on the short side" holes go, the fifteenth at Aberdovey is a cracking good one.