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Jason Topp

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Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« on: September 08, 2014, 08:59:49 PM »
Yesterday I returned from a golf trip to the Colorado mountains with a group of 16.  The scenery and wildlife was spectacular, including in particular a bear that greeted us on the way to the first tee on Saturday.  The golf courses ranged from good to mediocre.

Building golf courses at this high elevation and on the side of mountains presents some unique challenges.  I am sure someone has walked these courses but I will guarantee you it was not me.  I am not sure firm and fast is a reasonable ideal on such sites because the ball would just roll downhill into the junk.  We played a lot of blind holes.  While I have no problem with blind shots, it is helpful to have some hint as to what lies ahead on a particular hole.

I played the following courses in order of preference.

1.  Red Sky Ranch (Norman) - http://www.redskygolfclub.com/info/crs.norman.asp

Terrific setting.  The design seemed to best accommodate the slopes into an interesting, yet playable test of golf.  The fairways seemed wider than most courses we played.

2.  Cordillera - Summit  http://www.cordillera-vail.com/summit-course.html - my favorite course from a view perspective. The drive up the mountain seems to take forever and purportedly the course gets up to 10,000 feet in elevation as one point.  Upon arriving at the guard house one member of our group asked "Are you Gabriel?"  The course punished the short hitting members of our group of 16.  Many of us lost quite few balls.  Nonetheless, if I had the choice of one place to visit again this would be it.

3.  Cordillera - Mountain   http://www.cordillera-vail.com/mountain-course.html

This course is lower than the Summit and features much more housing.  The housing is not as bothersome as on many courses and does not intrude on the experience as much as elsewhere.  There are some extraordinarily awkward holes here - including a reachable par five where the layup is blind to some very tight terraces and a downhill 430 yard hole that is a layup and a pitch but through such a narrow tunnel that it seemed out of place.  The fairways are quite wide generally, but you need to hit the uphill half or be ready for some very unpleasant bounces. 

4.  Sonnenalp -http://www.sonnenalpgolfclub.com

This course is down near the Interstate in Edwards.  It features a ton of housing but has very interesting and severe greens.  It was run more like a private club than the others (even though they all describe themselves as private for some reason).  The housing takes away from the experience for me and I would be unlikely to pay full fare to play here again.

5.  Beaver Creek - http://www.beavercreek.com/golf/beaver-creek-golf-club.aspx#/ClubHistory

It is never a great sign when two of the first three holes are par fives requiring a layup off the tee.  Imagine an Arizona target course placed on a mountainside and you get the sense of the first few holes.  Imagine an ordinary municipal course on a mountainside and you get the sense of the rest.  The best reason the play this course is that is convenient in a trip with the family or on business.  It is squeezed into a difficult parcel of land between a mountainside and a road. 


Bonus Round - Buffalo Run - http://www.buffalorungolfcourse.com

  I scheduled my Sunday flight in the evening to squeeze in a round with a friend in Denver.  Unfortunately, his club was not available so we agreed to meet at Buffalo Run near DIA to avoid the Bronco traffic in the middle of town.  I have  never seen so many people wearing Orange in my life.  Denver fans are an earnest group that are flying high with Payton Manning at quarterback. 

Buffalo Run is a solid course on flat land.  It has plenty of length and did have a certain percentage of walkers.  We played at 10 am on a Sunday in four hours.  The course was watered to a soupy mess in places and the greens were very soft. However, the course features large bunkers placed in a manner to make you think, significantly contoured greens that would become very difficult to impossible if maintained firm and fast, and a pleasant setting.  I recommend it if you are looking to squeeze in one round before getting on a plane.  Riverdale Dunes is a more interesting design but either place is perfectly fine.

I really enjoyed this destination.  September weather was just about perfect and the views are as good as it gets.  I doubt any of these courses will enjoy significant status among this discussion board but playing an ordinary golf course in an extraordinary location can be as enjoyable for me as an outstanding golf course in an ordinary location. 

Nonetheless - I would love to have seen what Donald Ross what have done here.  Based on his work at Northland, I bet he would have figured something out.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 09:14:41 PM »
Jason, happy to see you avoided Eagle Vail, the only course I've played in that area.  On the bus on the way back, I read the review of the course coincidentally featured in the paper that morning.  The lead:   "Veterans of Guadalcanal discuss that battle in the same hushed tones those who have played Eagle Vail discuss the golf course."

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 09:16:54 PM »
Jason, happy to see you avoided Eagle Vail, the only course I've played in that area.  On the bus on the way back, I read the review of the course coincidentally featured in the paper that morning.  The lead:   "Veterans of Guadalcanal discuss that battle in the same hushed tones those who have played Eagle Vail discuss the golf course."

Love it!  I could see how it could happen out there.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 10:47:19 PM »
You made it out to my neck of the woods!  Also glad you put us at No. 1.  Alas, you didn't get to play the Fazio at Red Sky, and Cordillera Valley (also Fazio).  But those are reason enough to return in my opinion.  My ranking is as follows:

1)  Cordillera Valley
2)  Sonnenalp (I'm a bit of a green speed slut, sadly)
3)  Red Sky (Fazio)
4)  Red Sky (Norman)
5)  Cordillera Summit
6)  Vail Golf Club (but extra points for being quite walkable)
7)  Beaver Creek
8)  Eagle Vail (though they have a good men's league)
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 10:59:24 PM »
You made it out to my neck of the woods!  Also glad you put us at No. 1.  Alas, you didn't get to play the Fazio at Red Sky, and Cordillera Valley (also Fazio).  But those are reason enough to return in my opinion.  My ranking is as follows:

1)  Cordillera Valley
2)  Sonnenalp (I'm a bit of a green speed slut, sadly)
3)  Red Sky (Fazio)
4)  Red Sky (Norman)
5)  Cordillera Summit
6)  Vail Golf Club (but extra points for being quite walkable)
7)  Beaver Creek
8)  Eagle Vail (though they have a good men's league)


You are a lucky man.  Have you not played Cordillera Mountain?  The Sonnenalp greens did not seem extremely fast to me but I doubt they could have been much faster with all of that slope.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 11:57:19 PM »
Jason,

There are a few Ross designs in Colorado. He did 18 holes at The Broadmoor. Those holes are now divided between the East and West courses at that resort.

He's also credited with Lakewood CC and Welshire GC, on the Denver area. Lakewood is a nice private club, but I only played it once and it was before I knew much about Ross. No idea how much of him is still really there. Welshire is an uninspiring Denver muni just down the street from Cherry Hills. I don't think there's much Ross really left there, but as munis go you could do worse.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 09:03:36 AM »
No Lakota Canyon? Didn't a poster on this site claim it to be top 10 in the US?
Mr Hurricane

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 09:07:32 AM »
No Lakota Canyon? Didn't a poster on this site claim it to be top 10 in the US?

I did not organize the trip so I am not certain why we did not play there.  I am guessing logistics would have been a problem.

Sam Morrow

Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 09:13:23 AM »
I liked Lakota,  not a bad drive from Vail either.

Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 12:19:48 PM »
Keystone Ranch is always a great choice

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 07:26:10 PM »
You made it out to my neck of the woods!  Also glad you put us at No. 1.  Alas, you didn't get to play the Fazio at Red Sky, and Cordillera Valley (also Fazio).  But those are reason enough to return in my opinion.  My ranking is as follows:

1)  Cordillera Valley
2)  Sonnenalp (I'm a bit of a green speed slut, sadly)
3)  Red Sky (Fazio)
4)  Red Sky (Norman)
5)  Cordillera Summit
6)  Vail Golf Club (but extra points for being quite walkable)
7)  Beaver Creek
8)  Eagle Vail (though they have a good men's league)


You are a lucky man.  Have you not played Cordillera Mountain?  The Sonnenalp greens did not seem extremely fast to me but I doubt they could have been much faster with all of that slope.

I have not played Cordillera Mountain, but from everything I hear I'm not terribly excited to.  I probably will eventually.  As for Sonnenalp, the greens come out of the winter screaming for some reason (near 100% poa?) and actually slow as the season progresses.  So that makes sense.  If you play early in the season sometime, this is the place, as they'll be rolling 11+ where everwhere else in the valley is rolling 7.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 08:43:40 PM »

I have not played Cordillera Mountain, but from everything I hear I'm not terribly excited to.  I probably will eventually.  As for Sonnenalp, the greens come out of the winter screaming for some reason (near 100% poa?) and actually slow as the season progresses.  So that makes sense.  If you play early in the season sometime, this is the place, as they'll be rolling 11+ where everwhere else in the valley is rolling 7.

They did seem to have a very large percentage of Poa but putted smoothly.

Brad Isaacs

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 11:19:12 PM »
Adam's mtn. Very playable, lots of room, two different 9's. Could play there every day. Better than Cordillera by quite a bit. ( doesn't matter which course at Cordillera )

Howard Riefs

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 11:24:56 PM »
No Lakota Canyon? Didn't a poster on this site claim it to be top 10 in the US?

I did not organize the trip so I am not certain why we did not play there.  I am guessing logistics would have been a problem.

Did the dates not work for your group to play Red Sky-Fazio? I know the club alternates the member course play between Fazio and Norman courses each day.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

mike_beene

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 01:01:57 AM »
What kind of shape is the Breck Muny in now? I haven't been there since they built the 3rd nine? They used to have a nice range to hit and enjoy the mountains.

Brad Tufts

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2014, 01:57:11 AM »
As for Vail golf, I have played Eagle Ranch (blah), Red Sky Norman (pretty cool), and CC of the Rockies (just below RSNorm).

JT...how do you like dealing with the elevation with your play?  I've gone back and forth about it...you have to hit it solid for the math to work I feel like.  Thin air means lower ball flight which also means your shot doesn't take as much advantage of the air as the math says...it can be a clusterF.

I am actually in CO now...played the Broadmoor West today.  Roaring Fork tomorrow.

CO Springs to Aspen is one of the most breathtaking drives in the US...I've done it 4 times now and I am riveted for the entire 3.5 hours!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2014, 07:35:38 AM »
No Lakota Canyon? Didn't a poster on this site claim it to be top 10 in the US?

I did not organize the trip so I am not certain why we did not play there.  I am guessing logistics would have been a problem.

Did the dates not work for your group to play Red Sky-Fazio? I know the club alternates the member course play between Fazio and Norman courses each day.



No - we actually did not know which course we would play until we got there.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2014, 07:43:44 AM »

JT...how do you like dealing with the elevation with your play?  I've gone back and forth about it...you have to hit it solid for the math to work I feel like.  Thin air means lower ball flight which also means your shot doesn't take as much advantage of the air as the math says...it can be a clusterF.



It is a challenge and I am nor sure I understand the physics exactly.  It seems to me you need to hit it solid and high to really get the extra distance.  Spin is not going to give you the same lift you experience on lower ground.  Factor in the uphill and downhill as well as the temperature (which was ranging from 40-70F) and the wind (which changed all of the time) and I found it difficult to do the math.  I was more successful pulling clubs by feel than by any strict yardage calculation.


Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 11:20:37 PM »
Trajectory is a bit more ballistic up here, while down at sea level there's more "hang" as the ball comes down.  As was mentioned, mountain golf courses tend to be rather severe, so there's hardly ever a "stock" shot.  Everything is way uphill or way downhill or way sidehill, with the requisite swirling wind and temperature considerations.  An anecdote:  I played a 606 yard par 5 that was dead into a cold wind one day.  Took me driver/3W/7I to get home.  A few days later a storm was approaching and flipped the prevailing wind to about 40 mph downwind on the same hole.  I hit Driver/8I over the back.  As was also mentioned, solid shots go further, but duffs go about the same lousy distance as sea level. 
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Bill Vogeney

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2014, 12:32:52 AM »
I have played Sonnenalp. Solid track in good condition from what I remember. Played Beaver Creek last month. Gorgeous views, terrible design. I did not mind the first hole, the first of two layup par 5s (hit hybrid) but the third hole is one of the worst  holes I have ever seen. It might have been passable had it not been for the 50 feet pine tree that blocked anything that wasn't PERFECTLY laid up off the tee.

There are, however, some great holes on the back nine

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Report from the Rockies: Vail area golf
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2014, 01:12:13 PM »
I have played Sonnenalp. Solid track in good condition from what I remember. Played Beaver Creek last month. Gorgeous views, terrible design. I did not mind the first hole, the first of two layup par 5s (hit hybrid) but the third hole is one of the worst  holes I have ever seen. It might have been passable had it not been for the 50 feet pine tree that blocked anything that wasn't PERFECTLY laid up off the tee.

There are, however, some great holes on the back nine

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Beaver Creek is a bad design.  There's just no room!  I think they could have made a fabulous 9 hole course (or 12?) but for the clientele they were chasing it's 18 holes or bust.  I don't think even a Crumpian consortium of all-star architects could have made that more than a Doak 5 out of the property.  But I do agree that 1 and 3 are awful. 

As for mountain golf in general, and the cardinal rule is "If you are going to miss, miss uphill!"
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

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