Another one soon to bite the dust

[Mark Johnson]

Looks like another example of golf over proliferation in the 90s is about to close

Have it on pretty good knowledge that the Harvester in Iowa won't be reopening in 2015.

Makes a ton of sense.   Word is they are averaging 20 rounds midweek and 40 on weekends.   Most of these are season membership so not really profitable.

They dont even have a head pro.  A 1-2 person clubhouse operation.  They same person who takes your green fees, pours your beer and makes your sandwich.

- Decent but not great course in the middle of nowhere.
- Greens fees of $129, completely out of price for the market.

Not shocking, but never good to see a course close.

[Brent Hutto]

Was there an extra "1" in front of that number?

What kind of course can charge $129 in rural Iowa? That's beyond "out of whack", isn't it?

I live in a mid-sized Sunbelt city and there's not a course in town that even tries to charge half that much for a round of golf. Most public/semi-private ones around here are in the $25-$50 range.

[astavrides]

i thought it was a really good course.

[Daryl David]

Was there an extra "1" in front of that number?

What kind of course can charge $129 in rural Iowa? That's beyond "out of whack", isn't it?

I live in a mid-sized Sunbelt city and there's not a course in town that even tries to charge half that much for a round of golf. Most public/semi-private ones around here are in the $25-$50 range.

So, I guess they should have dropped the green fee to $29.  At that price I bet they could have doubled the rounds played and lost even more money. Yah, that's the ticket. 

[Brent Hutto]

My point is, if their financials are such that they need lots of rounds at $129 per then their problem isn't the current downturn. Their problem is building a course that requires charged 3x what the market will bear in order to meet your financial obligations.

[Sven Nilsen]

My point is, if their financials are such that they need lots of rounds at $129 per then their problem isn't the current downturn. Their problem is building a course that requires charged 3x what the market will bear in order to meet your financial obligations.

Brent:

Conjecture has never helped a practical discussion.

How many of your Sunbelt City courses have ever been ranked on the Best Modern list?

Sven

[Daryl David]

Probably depends on the product and the pockets of the owner more than the market or a business plan. No one seems to be complaining yet that Gamble Sands is charging $130.  Let's face it, Brewster WA. makes Rhodes, IA look positively uptown so I don't think location has anything to do with it.

[Jason Thurman]

That's awful news.

I haven't played The Harvester since the spring of 2012, but I played it regularly during the eight months I spent working in Des Moines. Personally, I think Mark's initial post undersells the course quite a bit. There are plenty of courses in the greater Des Moines area that are mediocre layouts designed more to sell homes than to provide excellent golf. The Harvester is of a different class, both by my own standards and also by national acclaim. It has consistently been ranked a Top 100 public course in Golfweek, and Golf Digest currently has it ranked 46th among public courses, just in front of Pine Needles. I think it represents those rankings very well. There's a bit of a Missouri River rivalry between Nebraska golfers and Iowa golfers as to whether Wild Horse or The Harvester is better. I've always slightly preferred The Harvester, and I love Wild Horse. If the course truly closes after this year, it will be a big loss.

I always got the feeling that there were plenty of unsold home lots around The Harvester, and maybe that's been part of their financial struggle. $129 is also, obviously, an expensive price point for the area. I'd be interested to see some analysis that could help determine their ideal greens fee. It seems like the course may be a bit too far out of Des Moines to be able to count on players regularly making the trip at a more modest price, so my guess is they never expected a ton of rounds and tried to make it up with a premium rate. The location is an awkward one, but central Iowa hasn't been as ravaged by the economic downturn as a lot of the country. I just can't imagine that it's a course that couldn't be financially successful with the right owner and business strategy. I hope someone is able to turn it around.

[Brent Hutto]

They could open an exact clone of Augusta National in my neighborhood and I doubt they could book 100+ rounds a day if they tried to charge $129. Best Modern Whatever doesn't mean anything if there aren't a couple hundred people within an hour's drive, each looking to spend $129 a couple dozen times a year. Where I live I know (and I'd speculate also in the Harvester neighborhood) there just aren't 10,000 or even 2,000 rounds a year to be played at that kind of price point.

Too many "retail golfers" will take the $39 pretty nice course over the $129 Best Modern course every time. Or they'll play the expensive one once a year for a treat.

[Sven Nilsen]

They could open an exact clone of Augusta National in my neighborhood and I doubt they could book 100+ rounds a day if they tried to charge $129. Best Modern Whatever doesn't mean anything if there aren't a couple hundred people within an hour's drive, each looking to spend $129 a couple dozen times a year. Where I live I know (and I'd speculate also in the Harvester neighborhood) there just aren't 10,000 or even 2,000 rounds a year to be played at that kind of price point.

Too many "retail golfers" will take the $39 pretty nice course over the $129 Best Modern course every time. Or they'll play the expensive one once a year for a treat.

That's your neighborhood.

Admit it, you know next to nothing about the golf market in the Midwest, or anything about the specific market The Harvester is in or the fact that many people include it as a stop on a trip through Iowa (myself included on multiple occassions). 

As I said, conjecture (and this time speculation) is not going to help a practical discussion.

[Brent Hutto]

So tut-tutting about how awful is "practical" but opining that it's mighty expensive is not. Got it.

I think my best response is to let you have your tut-tut party with no more unwelcome commentary. Have your productive and practical fun. Sorry for the intrusion.

[Sven Nilsen]

So tut-tutting about how awful is "practical" but opining that it's mighty expensive is not. Got it.

I think my best response is to let you have your tut-tut party with no more unwelcome commentary. Have your productive and practical fun. Sorry for the intrusion.

Thank you.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sven - I have to say, I can't figure out where you're coming from.  What 'speculation' is involved in suggesting that charging $130 a round might keep a goodly percentage of golfers away?

Plus, if you know so much (from your stops there on your trip through Iowa), why don't you actually enlighten us with your views instead of wasting everyone's time looking down your nose at a good and long time poster?

Peter

[RJ_Daley]

I wonder if the enterprise is in bankruptcy and if a bank is foreclosing (going to auction it off) or is it an abandonment of the entire project.  I'd have to imagine that some re-organization is going to take place.  If it is auctioned, assets wasted and taken over at a 'apparently' much lower debt structure, then perhaps a lower price point would be possible.  But, one would think there has to be other profit centers in f&b and lot sales.

No, we don't know what the market or structure is.  But, I believe the landscape is strewn with similar big dreams that commanded a big price for a green fee and or memberships, and there are not many takers at those prices, particularly in rural midwest (despite not being that far from Des Moines)

Wild Horse is not a good comparison by any stretch. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven - I have to say, I can't figure out where you're coming from.  What 'speculation' is involved in suggesting that charging $130 a round might keep a goodly percentage of golfers away?

Plus, if you know so much (from your stops there on your trip through Iowa), why don't you actually enlighten us with your views instead of wasting everyone's time looking down your nose at a good and long time poster?

Peter

Peter:

Its a good course.  I'm sorry to see it go.  Wasn't a big fan of the 18th.

"Speculate" was Brent's word.  That is what he said he was doing.

Sven

[jeffwarne]

My point is, if their financials are such that they need lots of rounds at $129 per then their problem isn't the current downturn. Their problem is building a course that requires charged 3x what the market will bear in order to meet your financial obligations.

Brent:

Conjecture has never helped a practical discussion.

How many of your Sunbelt City courses have ever been ranked on the Best Modern list?

Sven

Doesn't really seem to matter though does it?

And while Brent (and I) may know next to nothing about the midwest market, it would appear that those who thought they could get $129 for this particular course may not have known enough about their market either.
Hoping you (and others) stop on their way through Iowa, hasn't really proved to be a viable business model-evidently.

[Mark Johnson]

That's awful news.

I haven't played The Harvester since the spring of 2012, but I played it regularly during the eight months I spent working in Des Moines. Personally, I think Mark's initial post undersells the course quite a bit. There are plenty of courses in the greater Des Moines area that are mediocre layouts designed more to sell homes than to provide excellent golf. The Harvester is of a different class, both by my own standards and also by national acclaim. It has consistently been ranked a Top 100 public course in Golfweek, and Golf Digest currently has it ranked 46th among public courses, just in front of Pine Needles. I think it represents those rankings very well. There's a bit of a Missouri River rivalry between Nebraska golfers and Iowa golfers as to whether Wild Horse or The Harvester is better. I've always slightly preferred The Harvester, and I love Wild Horse. If the course truly closes after this year, it will be a big loss.

I always got the feeling that there were plenty of unsold home lots around The Harvester, and maybe that's been part of their financial struggle. $129 is also, obviously, an expensive price point for the area. I'd be interested to see some analysis that could help determine their ideal greens fee. It seems like the course may be a bit too far out of Des Moines to be able to count on players regularly making the trip at a more modest price, so my guess is they never expected a ton of rounds and tried to make it up with a premium rate. The location is an awkward one, but central Iowa hasn't been as ravaged by the economic downturn as a lot of the country. I just can't imagine that it's a course that couldn't be financially successful with the right owner and business strategy. I hope someone is able to turn it around.

I may have been a bit harsh.   There are some interesting archiitecture but at least in the past couple years, I've heard it is maintained far less than what it once was.    However, i've played here and wild horse and in my mind, it isn't close --wild horse by a mile

Secondly, around the business model.   I think the model is that they want to sell a bunch of $4,000 season passes to fill the course and then augment with $129 rounds.   The challenge is that they didnt sell close to as many memberships as they wants (likely driven by the real estate issue.)

If you take down the green fees significantly, then you lose value on the season pass.   I agree with most of the board that from a pure golf perspective, $60 rounds could be more profitable.   However, the question is how much does that devalue the attached real estate.

[John McCarthy]

Harvester was definitely a course I planned on playing but did not make it to yet.  I suspect after chapter 11 or more likely chapter 7, they can drop the price more in line with Des Moines.

I just hope whoever buys her loves her.

BTW, no one except the operators and us care about the top x rating.  Folks want a good deal, fast greens and cold beer.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jeff (and Peter):

This is the same kind of conversation that took place when Ballyneal had its ownership change issues a little back.  

The truth is that no one on this thread knows exactly why The Harvester is having its problems.  All the theories are just that.

I have no problem talking about whether or not it was worth $129 (a number higher than I recall paying to play there), but I'd rather have that conversation with people who have played the course, not folks who are making comparisons to their own little corner of the world.

Perhaps the better conversation would be to discuss if there's a danger in getting too big for your britches.  If you get too many accolades, is there too much of a tempation to upsell your product?

To aid the conversation, here are the various rankings and awards given to the course over the years (feel free to read between the lines on the one's related to value):

Ranked the #1 Golf Course in Iowa
 Golfweek | 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014
 Golf Digest | 2003-04, 2005-06, 2007-08, 2009-10, 2013-14

Ranked in Top 100 Modern Golf Courses in the United States
 Golfweek
 #82 in 2014, #96 in 2013, #93 in 2010, #73 in 2009, #58 in 2008, #52 in 2007, #52 in 2006, #55 in 2005, #60 in 2004, #84 in 2003

 Ranked #46 of America's 100 Greatest Public Courses
 Golf Digest | 2013-14

Ranked #11 of America's Greatest Public Courses (By Price)
 Golf Digest | 2009

Ranked #55 of Top 100 Courses You Can Play
 Golf Magazine | 2006

Top Twenty For Your Money
 Golf Magazine | 2006

Top Ten You Can Play in the United States
 Golf Magazine | 2001

Ranked #2 Best New Affordable Public Course in the United States
 Golf Digest | 2001

A Top 50 Golf Course for Women
 Golf for Women | 2003, 2004

Top 10 Best Bargains in Golf
 Athlon Sports | 2002

Ranked #7 of America's 100 Best New Courses for $100 or Less
 Travel & Leisure Golf | 2002

All the best,

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Most of the people who thought it was worthy of a top 100 ranking didn't pay the $129 anyway.  End result is a course out of business because they charged high fees based on the opinion of people who played for free.  That is an odd economic model.

[jeffwarne]

Most of the people who thought it was worthy of a top 100 ranking didn't pay the $129 anyway.  End result is a course out of business because they charged high fees based on the opinion of people who played for free.  That is an odd economic model.

 
pretty simple really.
People who can and will pay $129 per round play at private courses-that's even true in my pricey corner of the world, and is particularly true in Brent's unpricey corner of the world

[Sven Nilsen]

Most of the people who thought it was worthy of a top 100 ranking didn't pay the $129 anyway.  End result is a course out of business because they charged high fees based on the opinion of people who played for free.  That is an odd economic model.

 
pretty simple really.
People who can and will pay $129 per round play at private courses-that's even true in my pricey corner of the world, and is particularly true Brent's unpricey corner of the world

Jeff:

Show me a private club on the east end of Long Island (Goat Hill excepted) that annualizes out to $129 a round and I'll show you the best bargain in golf.

Sven

[RJ_Daley]

I share JeffWarne's enthusiasm for JK's post. 

Sven's posting of all the various moves in rankings by various years and publications don't indicate what the prices were for the retail customer.  For all the magazine hype and high rankings, it seems obvious that folks did not seek out the course to play for the high acclaim they were getting.  Was that a local market disconnect, or not enough to stimulate the imagination of the travelling golfer?  It is hard to say.  And, another factor in any comparison to Wild Horse is that it is a quaint and affordable stop on the way for the top golf experience seekers trekking to the Sand Hills.  The folks in Nebraska will readily travel from Lincoln or Omaha 4 hours to play the 40=50 dollar course with similar acclaim from the rating magazines.  Yet, they don't seem to be going in the opposite direction the same time travel distance to 25=30 miles north of Des Moines for a course easily twice the price if not 3X the price of WH.  I'd like to see their number of rounds per year, and if they denote out of state or out of area players VS local DesMoines area players.

It is an interesting subject if you have ever been involved in a project or invested in one.  In my view, this isn't so much a marker to evaluate the popularity or future public enjoyment and viability of golf.  I think it is a marketing study, and a financing and investing lesson more than anything.

[Sven Nilsen]

RJ:

It was priced at $89 up until at least 2009.  At some point after that they upped it to $129.

In 2009, it was tied as the 11th cheapest GD Top 100 Public Course in the country.

Here are a few other price points to consider from that 2009 list:

1. (67) Old Works G. Cse., Anaconda, Mont., $50
T2. (53) Links of North Dakota, Ray, N.D., $60
T2. (42) Shepherd's Hollow G.C. (2nd/3rd), Clarkston, Mich., $60
4. (69) Lakewood Shores Resort (Gailes), Oscoda, Mich., $65
T5. (59) Black Mesa G.C., La Mesilla, N.M., $67
T5. (78) Hawktree G.C., Bismarck, N.D., $67
7. (55) Quarry Oaks G.C., Ashland, Neb., $73
8. (100) RTJ Trail at Capitol Hill (Judge), Prattville, Ala., $74
9. (34) Black Lake G.C., Onaway, Mich., $80
10. (74) TPC Deere Run, Silvis, Ill., $82
T11. (47) Eagle Eye G.C., East Lansing, Mich., $89
T11. (27) The G.C. at Redlands Mesa, Grand Junction, Colo., $89
T11. (36) The Harvester G.C., Rhodes, Iowa, $89
T11. (72) The Legend at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., $89
T11. (80) Mattaponi Springs G.C, Ruther Glen, Va., $89
T11. (20) The Quarry at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., $89
T17. (61) Circling Raven G.C., Worley, Idaho, $95
T17. (86) Lakota Canyon Ranch G.C., New Castle, Colo., $95
T19. (93) Branson Creek G.C., Hollister, Mo., $99
T19. (98) Longaberger G.C., Nashport, Ohio, $99
21. (89) Stonewall Resort G.C. (Palmer), Roanoke, W.Va., $105
22. (88) Ko'olau G.C., Kaneohe, Oahu, Hawaii, $110
23. (43) Paa-Ko Ridge G.C., Sandia Park, N.M., $114
24. (40) The Classic at Madden's Resort, Brainerd, Minn., $119
T25. (63) Belgrade Lakes G.C., Belgrade Lakes, Maine, $120
T25. (5) Bethpage State Park (Black), Farmingdale, N.Y., $120
T27. (73) Granite Links G.C. (Granite/Milton), Quincy, Mass., $125
T27. (76) The Tribute G.C., The Colony, Tex., $125
T29. (57) Great River G.C., Milford, Conn. $130
T29. (28) Osprey Meadows at Tamarack Resort, Donnelly, Idaho, $130 (closed for 2009 season)
T31. (33) The Heritage Club, Pawleys Island, S.C., $134
T31. (82) Tobacco Road G.C., Sanford, N.C., $134
T33. (83) Avalon Lakes G. Cse., Warren, Ohio, $135
T33. (46) World Woods G.C. (Pine Barrens), Brooksville, Fla., $135
T35. (39) The G.C. at Cuscowilla, Eatonton, Ga., $140 (guests can play Tue.-Thu. only)
T35. (15) Tullymore G.C., Stanwood, Mich., $140
T37. (81) Bulle Rock, Havre de Grace, Md., $150
T37. (45) Cog Hill G. & C.C. (No. 4), Lemont, Ill., $150
T37. (18) Forest Dunes G.C., Roscommon, Mich., $150
T37. (79) Pumpkin Ridge G.C. (Ghost Creek), North Plains, Ore., $150
T41. (95) Blackwolf Run (Meadow Valleys), Kohler, Wis., $165
T41. (16) Blackwolf Run (River), Kohler, Wis., $165
T41. (32) Golden Horseshoe G.C. (Gold), Williamsburg, Va., $165
T41. (30) Whistling Straits (Irish), Haven, Wis., $165
45. (37) Chambers Bay, University Place, Wash., $169
46. (10) Arcadia Bluffs G.C., Arcadia, Mich., $180
T47. (99) Barefoot Resort & Golf (Dye), North Myrtle Beach, S.C., $185
T47. (96) Barefoot Resort & Golf (Fazio), North Myrtle Beach, S.C., $185
T47. (85) Saratoga National G.C., Saratoga Springs, N.Y., $185
50. (87) La Quinta Resort & C. (Mountain), La Quinta, Calif., $189
51. (21) Wolf Creek G.C., Mesquite, Nev., $195
T52. (62) Bay Harbor G.C. (Links/Quarry), Bay Harbor, Mich., $199
T52. (71) PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta, Calif., $199
T54. (66) Caledonia G. & Fish C., Pawleys Island, S.C., $200
T54. (12) The Prince Course, Princeville, Kauai, Hawaii, $200
T54. (90) Promontory, The Ranch Club (Dye Canyon), Park City, Utah, $200
57. (97) Turtle Bay Resort (Palmer), Kahuku, Oahu, Hawaii, $205
T58. (77) Grande Dunes (Resort C.), Myrtle Beach, $209
T58. (41) Tidewater G.C. & Plantation, North Myrtle Beach, S.C. , $209
60. (64) Torrey Pines G. Cse. (South), La Jolla, Calif., $218
61. (29) Pasatiempo G.C., Santa Cruz, Calif., $220
T62. (23) The Broadmoor G.C. (East), Colorado Springs, $225
T62. (35) The Challenge at Manele, Lanai City, Lanai, Hawaii, $225
T62. (38) The Dunes G. & Beach Club, Myrtle Beach, $225
T62. (48) Kiawah Island G. Resort (Turtle Point), Kiawah Island, S.C., $225
T62. (68) Nemacolin Woodlands Resort (Mystic Rock), Farmington, Pa., $225 (incl. required $40 caddie fee)
T62. (91) Wailea G.C. (Gold), Wailea, Maui, Hawaii, $225
68. (56) Pine Needles Lodge & G.C., Southern Pines, N.C., $235
T69. (92) The Club at Cordillera (Summit), Edwards, Colo., $240
T69. (65) Edgewood Tahoe G. Cse., Stateline, Nev., $240
71. (13) Harbour Town G. Links, Hilton Head Island, $255
72. (52) The Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach, $260
73. (75) Coeur d'Alene Resort G.C., Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, $270
T74. (7) Bandon Dunes, Bandon, Ore., $275
T74. (14) Bandon Trails, Bandon, Ore., $275
T74. (2) Pacific Dunes, Bandon, Ore., $275
77. (24) The Homestead (Cascades), Hot Springs, Va., $280
78. (26) Mauna Kea G. Cse., Kohala Coast, Hawaii, $290
79. (25) Kapalua G.C. (Plantation), Kapalua, Maui, Hawaii, $298
80. (17) Karsten Creek, Stillwater, Okla., $300
81. (94) Doral G. Resort & Spa (Blue), Miami, $325
82. (11) Spyglass Hill G. Cse., Pebble Beach, $340
83. (58) Crosswater, Sunriver, Ore., $354* (including $179 room rate)
84. (4) The Ocean Course, Kiawah Island, S.C., $360
T85. (9) TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium), Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla., $375
T85. (84) Trump National. G.C. Los Angeles, Rancho Palos Verdes, Calif., $375
87.(60) CordeValle G.C., San Martin, Calif., $390
88. (3) Whistling Straits (Straits), Haven, Wis., $400 (including required $60 caddie fee)
T89. (54) Pinehurst (N.C.) Resort (No. 4), $476* (including room, dinner, breakfast)
T89. (51) Pinehurst (N.C.) Resort (No. , $476* (including room, dinner, breakfast)
91. (70) Bay Hill Club, Orlando, $477* (incl. required room)
92. (1) Pebble Beach G. Links, Pebble Beach, $495
93. (49) Cascata, Boulder City, Nev., $500
94. ( Shadow Creek, North Las Vegas, Nev., $500* (requires stay at one of 13 resorts, rates vary)
95. (44) The Ocean Course at Ginn Hammock Beach Resort, Palm Coast, Fla., $524* (incl. $299 room rate)
96. (19) Fallen Oak G.C., Saucier, Miss., $549* (including $249 room rate)
97. (6) Pinehurst (N.C.) Resort (No. 2), $651* (including room, dinner, breakfast)
98. (50) Barton Creek Resort & C.C. (Fazio Canyons), Austin, $660* (including $400 room rate)
99. (31) Sea Island G.C. (Seaside), St. Simons Island, Ga., $720* (incl. $490 room rate)
100. (22) May River G.C. at Palmetto Bluff, Bluffton, S.C., $890* (including $650 room rate)

[jeffwarne]

Most of the people who thought it was worthy of a top 100 ranking didn't pay the $129 anyway.  End result is a course out of business because they charged high fees based on the opinion of people who played for free.  That is an odd economic model.

 
pretty simple really.
People who can and will pay $129 per round play at private courses-that's even true in my pricey corner of the world, and is particularly true Brent's unpricey corner of the world

Jeff:

Show me a private club on the east end of Long Island (Goat Hill excepted) that annualizes out to $129 a round and I'll show you the best bargain in golf.

Sven

Of course it depends on how many rounds one plays but here goes
Southampton golf club
annual dues $5600
about $1000 a round for me so far this year:
Long Island National(now private) around $6000 annually (I think-may even be less)
North Fork CC
Gardiners Bay
South Fork
Bridgehampton Club
Quogue Field Club
Baiting Hollow Club
Shinnecock-if you can get in-dues quite low
Vineyard Club (Old Vine formerly)