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Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 12:43:16 AM »
I was going to head out this weekend, but I found out it was 1) sold out for Sunday, and 2) $92.50 a ticket if you add up all the fees and taxes. I'm pretty disappointed as I was looking forward to this event for a very long time.

I think the course has defended itself very well so far. I think there's actually a nice blend of very short holes and very long holes....  the long holes are really long and the short holes are really short. It makes for a nice variety and challenge.

I think the cooler conditions have also limited the effect of the altitude a little bit.... it's probably more like a 5% difference on a day like today was - 65 degrees and overcast and a little humid.

There was some more rain tonight here in the northern suburbs but I don't know how much the course got.... I'm 30 minutes away from it.


« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 01:12:12 AM by Matthew Rose »
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2014, 06:50:15 AM »
Tom/Mark/JC,

Regarding the first set of cross bunkers on #17 - did anyone expect those to be flown from the tee? JB Holmes did it yesterday, Bubba and a few others did it today. It is just crazy how far the boys hit the ball these days.

The new #3 green is awesome - I never would have guessed it is not original. I watched several groups hit drives all around the green and struggle big time with their chip shots - I did not see a single birdie.

Regarding a possible future major at Cherry Hills - I overheard a couple of members saying they are in the running for the 2011 PGA.

Certainly lower scores today, but 1/2 inch of rain and temperatures in the 70s is fall / monsoon weather for Denver. PGA time (early August) will see conditions like yesterday - and probably even harder and faster.


Bill:

I doubt that William Flynn ever envisioned anyone flying those cross bunkers, but I certainly understood some would.  In fact, I wouldn't have endorsed putting them back in if I had thought we were making everyone lay up ... but there aren't many players out there who can carry them without thinking about them, and there are many who are taking a risk to do so.

I was working for Perry Dye in Denver when Cherry Hills hosted the PGA in 1985 ... as firm and fast a golf course as I've ever seen in a major U.S. tournament.  The only two guys who could handle the conditions were Hubert Green and Lee Trevino, two real shotmakers.  I wonder if anyone on Tour today could carve the ball around in the same way with the newfangled equipment?

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2014, 09:35:25 AM »
Wow, what a neutering of 17 between 1937 and 1963.  The loss of that Sahara or Hell cross bunkering is really depressing. 

Bill, happily they have been restored.

Tom/Mark/JC,

Regarding the first set of cross bunkers on #17 - did anyone expect those to be flown from the tee? JB Holmes did it yesterday, Bubba and a few others did it today. It is just crazy how far the boys hit the ball these days.

The new #3 green is awesome - I never would have guessed it is not original. I watched several groups hit drives all around the green and struggle big time with their chip shots - I did not see a single birdie.

Regarding a possible future major at Cherry Hills - I overheard a couple of members saying they are in the running for the 2011 PGA.

Certainly lower scores today, but 1/2 inch of rain and temperatures in the 70s is fall / monsoon weather for Denver. PGA time (early August) will see conditions like yesterday - and probably even harder and faster.


I recall quite a few of the kids in the USAm carrying the bunkers on #17 as well, but though those kids bombed it around the place, they had a hard time getting it close or making putts. The conditions for that Am were a lovely brown with green tinge, very hard and fast. That was around the same time of year as a PGA would be held, but obviously you're at the mercy of the weather for that.

Afternoon showers (with lightning) are very common in the summer in Colorado. It was always a huge problem for the International and has been a big problem for many other tournaments held over the years, especially some of the Senior and Women's Opens at the Broadmoor.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2014, 09:52:19 AM »
Jim,
I put together a very comprehensive master plan and included chronologies like the one above documenting the historic evolution of all the holes at Cherry Hills.  It is amazing how that golf course had been changed over the years.  Much of the original design and strategy had been stripped right out of it.  Fortunately, only two of the greens had been changed (#3 and #13) and yes Perry’s son Press gets credit for the work (#13 for example was rebuilt twice and looked nothing like the other Flynn holes).  I think you might know that Press designed Cherry Hills par three course back in the early 1960’s.  

Dave Lee was the Grounds Chairman back in 2003.  We were just exchanging emails the other day and talking about how all this went down.  I give him much of the credit for saving this golf course.  Back in 2003, the club was trying to figure out what they needed to do to entice the USGA to bring back the 2010 U.S.Open to Cherry Hills to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Palmer’s 1960 victory.  I happened to be out in Denver and stopped by the club to meet with Clayton Cole (Clayton is a real gentleman and pretty famous guy and was the head pro for many years at Cherry).  He knew me and asked me to take a look around the golf course.  After I finished my tour, I told him he had a nice golf course but other than the routing and 16 of the greens, most of his Flynn design had been lost to change.  He asked me to write up my thoughts and send them to Dave Lee.  Dave at the time had been interviewing architects trying to figure out what to do with the golf course (it seemed every one of the architects wanted to redesign Cherry and try to make it 8000 yards long).  Dave read my report, talked it over with his committee, and had me fly out to do a walk around with his committee and various board members.  My advice to the club was simple, "if you want to try to get the US Open, go find a celebrity architect and let them have free rein of the property, however, if you want your William Flynn golf course back (which I am pretty sure was awesome) I can help you".  Two weeks later I got a signed contract from Dave and was hired to help them understand the evolution of their design and to develop a master plan for the possible restoration of the golf course.  Dave and his team could have easily gone the other way and Tom and Eric and I would have never had the chance to do what we did.  

One very interesting analysis that we made, there three holes at Cherry Hills that were modeled after three holes at Pine Valley GC in New Jersey (I remember after I was hired sitting in Philly with Wayne Morrison and he and I were talking about this).  The members at Cherry Hills did not know any of this until I showed them the comparisons and explained the history of the design.  As many you well know, William Flynn worked at Pine Valley for eight years and was seconded by Hugh Wilson at Merion to finish the last four holes at Pine Valley when George Crump passed away.  Flynn took ideas from Pine Valley and incorporated them into his designs (including his design at Cherry Hills).  The 17th hole at Cherry Hills is modeled after the design concept of #7 at Pine Valley.  The other two holes are #14 and #7 at Cherry Hills (they are modeled respectively after #13 and #12 at Pine Valley).  This makes a fascinating story and adds to the aura of Cherry Hills.  And by the way, those cross bunkers (Flynn’s softer version at Cherry Hills of Hell’s Half acre) were originally designed by Flynn to tempt and torment.  Yes big hitters could possibly fly them or "bounce over or through the leading ones" under the right conditions.  If you got close to them or found a good lie you were left with a tempting shot to the island green.  As you are watching on TV, it is hard for players to not go for it when they know they only have a long iron or hybrid in their hands.  Temptation!!  And thank goodness those trees came down on the island.  That is another whole story.  It was like a religious experience for me when they finally came down especially after years and years of explaining to members why Flynn would have cringed to see them there.  Eric invited me out during construction when those trees were coming down and I am forever thankful!  

I ended up working at Cherry Hills for over three years with four different Grounds Chairman (they changed every year).  Everyone of them was a real pleasure to work with and all supported the restoration.  We completed our master plan in 2006 (we even did full construction drawings, Forrest Richardson was instrumental in working we me on these and visited Cherry Hills many times during the process).  However, despite all the years of effort and education, the club still was split on what they should do.  It was then that it was decided to either do the restoration work that we had proposed or redesign the golf course.  A vote must have been taken and thank goodness they made the right decision to restore.  I would have of course liked to have stayed through the construction but at the time I didn't have the resume of courses to lean on from a construction standpoint as I had only been in the business for about five years at the time.  I am just thankful they choose Tom and Eric or all that effort would have been lost and more importantly, we would have lost one of the great historic Flynn designs of all time.  

I think the course is looking and playing great and I just hope it firms up for the last two rounds.

Mark  

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2014, 10:36:48 AM »
Green speeds over the 4 days of play, and the practice round, in 1978 at Cherry Hills:

Practice =  8' 8.50"
Round 1=  8' 11.50"
          2=  9' 4.25"
          3=  9' 5.50"
          4=  9' 7.75"

Today?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2014, 10:59:20 AM »
All of Mark's history with the club was prior to my involvement ... I had declined to get involved a few years earlier, because it seemed apparent that the club was divided about which direction to go, and I have no patience for those sorts of intra-club political wars.

However, when the club did come back to us a few years ago, they did ask us to do a new master plan, and that plan was the basis for the club's vote on whether to proceed with the work.  I am sure that Mark's years of involvement with the club helped immensely in sorting out what direction they wanted to go, but wanted to be clear that we did not just use his master plan or take direction from Mark. 

No offense to Mark -- I'd say the same thing if it had been Tom Fazio -- but having Eric Iverson take direction from another architect would be like that old Herb Wind line about Valerie Hogan watching Ben cook dinner.  :) 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2014, 11:09:56 AM »
Doing research at the USGA in NJ, I discovered information from a December 1923 article in a Bulletin of the USGA Green Section which states the actual green size of all the original greens at Cherry Hills.  Here are the original green sizes as stated in that 1923 article.  I am sure the greens were rolling even slower back then :)

 

Cherry Hills

                                                            Green Size

 Hole                          Length                         in sq. ft.

1                      333                              4,948

2                      400                              6,820

3                      316                              3,583

4                      412                              7,747

5                      527                              4,923

6                      150                              5,172

7                      360                              4,747

8                      220                              6,803

9                      421                              6,492

10                    379                              5,098

11                    473                              6,670

12                    205                              5,484

13                    302                              4,740

14                    437                              6,837

15                    115                              4,447

16                    397                              4,804

17                    535                              6,290

18                    445                              7,252

Totals              6,427                          102,858

 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2014, 11:15:16 AM »
Tom,
As you know our plans were pretty close in our recommendations.  Eric told me you guys couldn't get everything you wanted done and I had the same problem.  I actually included a separate section in my master plan called "Future Considerations".  Basically I just wanted to go on record with documenting other changes I wanted to have made in the restoration that were not yet agreed to by the club.  I have a copy of your plan and I have to see if you did something similar?

I think the biggest difference between our master plans were the trees - we wanted many more taken down  ;D

Mark

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2014, 02:33:20 PM »
Mark,

I knew their was a reason that green has always caught my attention.

It was a magnetic pull I couldn't resist, I have had the opportunity to play Cherry hills several over the years  and people always ask what my favorite green was, # 3 as many would expect.

Yes I knew the par 3 course was designed by Maxwell.

When is the last time you were there?  Do you talk to Eric much ?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2014, 02:50:04 PM »
Great thread.  Thanks!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2014, 04:02:03 PM »
Jim,
Yes you could tell #3 was different the minute you saw it. The green itself was great but I was not a fan of the other changes that had been made to the hole over the years.  

I have not been back to Cherry Hills since Eric invited me out during construction.  We had fun walking the course and discussing all we both went through to finally get the project to where it was.  We actually talked a lot through out and Eric was very responsive.  He is a real classy guy and I have the utmost respect for him.  He was almost apologetic when we first discussed Renaissance taking over the project.  He told me they used much of my plan as the basis for theirs and managed to get most of what we both wanted included in the construction project.  Trees of course were the biggest challenge.  Trees are sacred out there.  Seemed for every one we wanted to remove, it had to replaced somewhere else with another.  We were both thrilled to take the ones down on the island on #17.  What a dramatic difference!!  I was also very happy that Eric loved our idea of relocating the #8 green.  That was a real critical change and improvement to multiple holes.  

I have not talked to Eric for some time but I trust he is doing well.  It would be really cool for the three of us to get together out there one day to play the golf course.  I joked to Eric that he got the fun and easy part of the project.  The hard part (which is why Tom commented above that he stayed away from Cherry Hills a few years earlier) was doing all the research and education of the membership as to what they originally had and why they should restore their classic design.  Sometimes perseverance pays off and Cherry Hills is a great example of where the club did the right thing.  The membership not only now has a great classic golf course that is a blast to play day in and day out, but one that can hold its own with the best players in the world!

Hope you are well Jim and let’s think about a round together out there with Eric.
Best,
Mark
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 04:32:54 PM by Mark_Fine »

billb

Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2014, 11:11:25 AM »
The experts here are unanimous - CH needs to lose more trees. From which areas and why?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2014, 09:32:25 PM »
The experts here are unanimous - CH needs to lose more trees. From which areas and why?

Bill:

I will make my recommendations to them later this fall -- straight up and with no regard for politics.  I've told them they will probably not like everything I have to say, but I do intend on saying it.

The problem is, trees are a weird deal.  It is so very hard to get a club to start taking out the trees that matter, but at several clubs now, once I've gotten them to see the light it becomes a problem to get them to stop!  I'm hoping I can convince them to let us get a couple of holes just as we want them and then vote on whether to do the rest.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2014, 12:25:50 AM »
It looks like Cherry Hills has done something similar to Dallas Country Club by switching to Zoysia for the green surrounds. What grass are the fairways? I would like to see there be more short grass behind and beside the greens which is what Dallas did with their Zoysia. The rough at least for the tournament was in pretty tight to the greens or at least appeared to be?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Hills holding its own
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2014, 06:20:37 PM »
We all know that trees are a VERY controversial topic at every golf club.  At Cherry Hills it is even more challenging because most trees there are not indigenous to the area.  Taking down a healthy tree at CHCC is really difficult regardless of where it is located. 

Prior to Tom getting there, we actually managed to take down quite a few trees (I won't mention the number because it might alarm the members)!  Some here who know the course well will recall for example all the clearing in 2004 by the pump house and along the pond on the left side of #1, #2, and #18.  The before and after photos are dramatic and once the trees were gone I think even the tree huggers loved it. 

I remember prior to the 2005 U.S. Women's Open we were building a new tee on #11 at the request of the USGA and Tim Moraghan for the tournament.  The idea was to find a teeing yardage to tempt the longer hitters to challenge the hill and the left fairway bunker to get in a position to try to reach the par five in two vs just laying back on their tee shot.  Adding the new tee was easy but the problem was that the fairway bunker on the hill on the left was fronted by a big tree.  The tree all but eliminated the temptation to skirt or carry the bunker.  Tim was in agreement with me to take it down and we finally got the club to agree but it was NOT EASY.  I recall being at the Open watching Annika try to fly the corner of the hill and bury her shot in the bunker.  It was a line she never would have attempted with the tree still there.  I joked to Mike Burke removing that tree might have cost her the Open  ;D

I am sure Tom knows what trees should come down and can guess what he will have to say to the club.  I can also guess their response.  Hope you have a lot of patience Tom  :-\