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Rich Goodale

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Re: France Top 5
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2014, 10:18:55 AM »
French golf may not be of a consistently high level, but France is Top 3 for every single other thing there is, so I'll cop a sparse offering of great golf as the country's "downside".

Fully agree, Scott.  I worked and lived in France for 3 months in 1971 and have spent over 365 days of my life in the country, and can't wait to get back there again.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2014, 11:02:24 AM »
French golf may not be of a consistently high level, but France is Top 3 for every single other thing there is, so I'll cop a sparse offering of great golf as the country's "downside".

I have very much enjoyed my time in France, but it is definitely not Top 3 for getting construction projects done quickly.   ::)

I envy their pace of life but it is hard to reconcile with our business.  There is zero sense of urgency.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2014, 11:28:46 AM »
Maybe not Top 3, but Top 10 in Europe for sure :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2014, 12:09:32 PM »
French golf may not be of a consistently high level, but France is Top 3 for every single other thing there is, so I'll cop a sparse offering of great golf as the country's "downside".

I have very much enjoyed my time in France, but it is definitely not Top 3 for getting construction projects done quickly.   ::)

I envy their pace of life but it is hard to reconcile with our business.  There is zero sense of urgency.

Welcome to Europe Tom!

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2014, 02:44:15 PM »
Hi Steve,

I'm with you on the politics, for music try Serge Gainsbourg, timeless !

Rich,
Try and visit the South West if you want a feel for French golf & history. Apart from the golf, the food is great !

Tom,
You should try it on a daily basis, challenging to say the least. However, they have their reasons, most have some sort of second home where they spend a lot of time, skiing, beaches, hunting or picking mushrooms in the countryside. You can actually get results if you get pass the boss/employee thing which takes a lot of time & efforts. It's generations of resistance, probably dating from the revolution.

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't go back to the UK, the place has gone pear shaped as far as I'm concerned.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2014, 03:37:13 PM »
Gentlemen,

Thanks for making this an interesting thread in my absence. I was doing some field research and now I'm sitting in the Thalys on my way back to paradise in NL.

As of right now I'd mostly agree with Frank's opinion on the ratings of the French courses I've seen. However, I will say that the top 3 are simply head and shoulders above the others.

The two courses at Morfontaine, by far the best in Europe, no doubt. The 9 hole Vallière may be one of the best 9 hole stretches of golf I've ever played. It's the original course there and simply spectacular. Not just better than any other 9 hole course but perhaps up there among the best 9 holes in all of golf. I'd certainly argue it's the best 9 holes of heathland golf in existence and to top it off it's truly on sand based turf something the London courses can't say. It's everything I expected of heathland golf, fast and firm conditions, amazing green surrounds and shapes and blooming heather everywhere. The main course, le Grand Parcour as far as I'm concerned deserves to be rates much higher in the world top 100. A great mix of holes. Add to all this a club house, atmosphere and great appreciation for fantastic food and wine and it may just be one of the best experiences in golf. Certainly one of my best.

Second place for me would actually be a two way tie between Fontainebleau and St. Germain. However, I will say that given the fantastic site that Fontainebleau sits on it has potential to pull away. In fact, remove about 2000 trees which will help restore the original routing and create more air and light which will greatly improve the turf and green conditions and let a huge heard of sheep loose to graze for a couple years then Fontainebleau would be simply magnificent. As it is now it's certainly a tough test of golf with some incredibly narrow playing corridors lined with huge trees. The finishing stretch from about #12 on is impressive even if 18 is a little anticlimactic though certainly not a bad hole. The short par 5 12th might be one of my favorite hole in golf with a very interesting risk reward shot at the green over some of the most interesting natural stone formations to a severely back to front sloping green in front of a spectacular stone hilled backdrop. I'd venture to say that this course in the right hands with aggressive tree clearing would be Top 50 world material.

St. Germain on the other hand could easily be one of my favorite Colt courses which in and of itself says a lot. It does have the space and width in the playing corridors with a few exceptions. Yes, there are some rather mundane straightish holes and the property is for the most part rather flat but the routing is very solid, the bunkering is very strategic and presents you with plenty of visual challenge. One of the things I really liked about this course was that I can imagine it being a joy for it's members to play everyday yet certainly challenging enough. The turf played very similar for me to Walton Heath and the greens as well. They are extremely large and the maintenance standards, at least today were every bit as good as the top private clubs in the US. Greens were rolling really fast, are huge, much like Walton Heath as well but with far more undulations. I enjoyed that you could effectively utilize the ground game. The set of par 3's are one of the strongest as a whole I've seen. I think St. Germain's staff really get it and are switched on when it comes to maintenance and what they are aiming to achieve there. Perhaps we had it on an exception day, even so it impressed.

4th place for me would probably be Les Bordes at this point. Yes it's a modern course and a bit of a modern course on steroids even. I think there is far too much use of water there and way too many island type greens. The course is not really a members course as it's just way too hard. However, in typical US fashion there is not a single blade of grass out of shape. It's a true championship test from the back tees (which I avoided). I'd say it's target golf of the highest quality (in Europe for sure) and an exclusive members course and experience that is both unique and worth the trip. Everything from the cottages to the bar and restaurant are typical relaxed French countryside atmosphere and sitting by the huge open fire at night with your group is a unique experience. Fastest greens I've ever seen in Europe by a long shot.

5th so far I would give to Chantilly. Unfortunately I was a bit underwhelmed with this course. A large part of that has to do with maintenance practices. The course was bordering on unplayable in terms of how narrow it was. The first cut of rough was waste deep and thick as can be causing our group of decent single hcp'er to wish we would of brought a few more dozen balls with us. Everything and I mean everything that even missed the fairway by inches was gone. It's a course where you are either straight or out of the hole. We all imaged that all but the best members would struggle there. The save grace on this flat site was the interest finishing section that contained some interesting surprises. We also didn't get a chance to play the other course which from the few holes we could see seemed to have some really interesting contours and shaping on the greens. We all left this feeling a bit surprised after all the positive things we had heard about it.

Everything else about the club was great, It also received our award for best wine during lunch. For what that's worth!

Out of time so had to close out quickly.

If you get the chance to do this trip or a similar one to France, you'd be crazy not to.



 
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2014, 03:57:22 PM »
David  - I know you've had a great trip, but having just seen five courses you're not in the best position to opine on anything beyond their relative ranking, wouldn't you say?  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2014, 04:20:00 PM »
Adam,

Easy tiger. First of all not the first courses I've played in France, however, to be fair. Please read my disclaimer which you must of skipped over. You will find it in the third sentence.  :P

I will quote it for you:

"As of right now I'd mostly agree with Frank's opinion on the ratings of the French courses I've seen. However, I will say that the top 3 are simply head and shoulders above the others."

Wouldn't that justify as a valid disclaimer? On top of that it's also based purely on my opinion for what that's worth ha ha...
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2014, 02:36:37 AM »
David, very good write up, I think you got all the nuances.

Chantilly is a club that is very proud on the fact that they have very good golfers (they have been Frech champions many times), and seems to be run by scratch players. That tends not to improve the architecture of a place. Maybe Patrice can say some more on the subject?

Now you need to go and play Hardelot, which I thinks is close to the top 3 you saw.

Also in a couple of years after Patrice and I have done the restoration work at Le Touquet, I am pretty sure it will sneak past St. Germain into the top 3.

The other two courses that could make huge jumps if the right things were done are Fontainebleau and Granville.
At Fontainebleau it would be tree felling and heather regeneration mostly with some hole changes (eg 18).
At Granville it will be major surgery, rerouting & bringing back old holes and greens,for which they unfortunately lack the funds, but if they had it could be very good.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2014, 04:21:46 AM »
Frank,

Granville has several possible solutions to fix the painful amputation they suffered back in the 90's. We have put forward the options but it's rather complicated, and not just because of finances. However, the lost holes are sadly gone forever, especially the 4th which you can still see the overgrown green complex the other side of the road.
There are still many improvements to be made on existing holes but a new Clubhouse slowed things down. I must say that the course has come a long way since my first visit in 2006, and our efforts have obviously paid as nobody talked about Granville until recently. And we have managed to do this without spending too much.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2014, 06:42:52 AM »

I'd certainly argue it's the best 9 holes of heathland golf in existence and to top it off it's truly on sand based turf something the London courses can't say.


David, are you sure about your assertion that the London Heathland courses are not on sand? Walton Heath is the only one I know of the well known ones that is definitely not. I've always been led to believe that nearly all of the rest are (although maybe maintenance practices mean that not all take full advantage of it).

So that would leave Sunningdale, Swinley, the Berkshire, St George's Hill, Woking, Worplesdon, West Hill, New Zealand, Hankley Common and Liphook - let's stop there as there are others but can someone with good knowledge of soil composition in this area give an idea? Perhaps Alan Strachan? Maybe Steve Okula will be able to fill us in on what's under the ground at the French courses we played? Granted, I imagine it's a little more complicated than just saying: on sand or not. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that what's underneath the ground is only a very good starting point and can be rendered irrelevant by either poor or exceptional maintenance practices - see Walton Heath v some of its softer and greener neighbours.



Brian,

As we discussed, you know I would not make that statement without being fairly certain. At Sunningdale I spoke to several of the green keeping staff and they said it's a definitely clay, they called it green sand I believe. You are certainly right about maintenance practices and I'm really surprised these clubs are not sharing information and best practices amongst them. In fact, they may well be, I'm not 100% sure they are not. I know our club blindly does their own thing and follows the maintenance practices they wish to follow even when 99.9% of the experts on the planet advise otherwise or would advise otherwise. It all seems so easy but start filling greens committees with volunteers that all have different stakes and varying levels of knowledge or lack of knowledge and then you end up with courses being maintained in ways that many of us here would mock and disagree with. For example, maintaining a links course like a parkland course or perhaps doing the same with a Heathland course. I'd guess most of us (on GCA) would love to see all the heathlands truly playing like inland links in terms of the firm and fast conditioning, maybe only a large percentage of us.

However, back to your point about turf, it makes a huge difference to have sand based ground to work with above clay based turf and  after talking to the people maintaining the turf at the a rather decent selection of the London based heathlands the conclusion I can draw is that they are all for the most part on clay. There are some sand pockets indeed to most of it is classified as clay. I'd be more than happy to be wrong or have received incorrect information here but it's not something I'm making up and as you know it was a mild source of disappointment for me having always imagine these courses to have conditions and turf much more similar to Melbourne sand belt courses. In any case, they are all great courses for sure, just IMO in-spite of the turf rather than because of it.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2014, 09:39:56 AM »
St Germain and Morfontaine are roughly similar in quality but very different. (have that still got that bad 2nd green on St Germain??)

I've also played St Cloud (Green(Colt) and Yellow(Morrison)) which is not as good as those two but is still pretty good with a number of excellent holes.  Probably has the most potential for improvement with some chainsaw action..."tres chic" location and clubhouse. 
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2014, 10:47:41 AM »
Paul--

You are going to have to refresh my memory on the 2nd green at St. Germain.  I remembered it as a good hole.  The greens that stuck out in my mind were 3, 7, and 11.  St. Germain is an outstanding Colt track... not quite Morfontiane, but really good. 

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2014, 10:49:17 AM »
Brian

It's all opinion.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2014, 11:19:46 AM »

I'd certainly argue it's the best 9 holes of heathland golf in existence and to top it off it's truly on sand based turf something the London courses can't say.


David, are you sure about your assertion that the London Heathland courses are not on sand? Walton Heath is the only one I know of the well known ones that is definitely not. I've always been led to believe that nearly all of the rest are (although maybe maintenance practices mean that not all take full advantage of it).

So that would leave Sunningdale, Swinley, the Berkshire, St George's Hill, Woking, Worplesdon, West Hill, New Zealand, Hankley Common and Liphook - let's stop there as there are others but can someone with good knowledge of soil composition in this area give an idea? Perhaps Alan Strachan? Maybe Steve Okula will be able to fill us in on what's under the ground at the French courses we played? Granted, I imagine it's a little more complicated than just saying: on sand or not. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that what's underneath the ground is only a very good starting point and can be rendered irrelevant by either poor or exceptional maintenance practices - see Walton Heath v some of its softer and greener neighbours.



Morfontaine is definitely on a deep layer of sand. Stuart Hallet gets around to more courses in France than I do, and would be the one who would know about many of the others.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2014, 01:48:41 PM »
Paul--

You are going to have to refresh my memory on the 2nd green at St. Germain.  I remembered it as a good hole.  The greens that stuck out in my mind were 3, 7, and 11.  St. Germain is an outstanding Colt track... not quite Morfontiane, but really good. 

Adam it has a rather crude back tier that looks "stuck on",  it's plenty difficult enough though.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2014, 03:30:48 PM »
Steve,
I've dug too many holes and trenches than I care to remember, but I certainly remember some of the surprises on so called sandy sites !

Paul,
I remember your reaction walking up to the 2nd green, the expression said it all, and I must admit that it's the only thing at St-Germain that bugs me, apart from a few minor details.
There was a huge Oak tree that died where the second tier is, and the President at the time saw the opportunity to extend the green while preserving the original green. A bad compromise was made with the committee members and the rest is history. The architect did do a plan, and to be fair to him, the President imposed too many changes.

Adam,
The 7th is an exceptional green, but funny enough the others are rather subtile but big. I personally like the 1st which is tough, 6th in the same style, 9th for the shaping on flat ground, 10th complex with 11 tees & 7th green which is hugely impressive in terms of artificial earthworks, 15th, probably the best green on the course, and 18 created from nothing like the 9th. The whole place is very peaceful and a wonderful place to spend time.

For me, it's the almost perfect members club.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2014, 03:41:57 PM »
Paul,
St-Cloud is transformed since you played it. I think you would be happy to see the results of the chainsaw action !

The Eiffel Tower and most of Paris is now visible in several places. We intend to continue the works and expose more views lost of the years. Course conditioning is constantly improving as well. Time & patience.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2014, 04:07:52 PM »
Stuart--

St. Germain in my opinion is the hidden gem of the world and a testament to the genius of Colt.  The artificial earthwork done there is brilliantly done, making a very flat site into an interesting and fun golf course and at least have the appearance of having movement.  The whole experience there was fantastic and it is a great members club. 

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2014, 04:18:47 PM »
Frank,

How much did it hurt (help) Chantilly when they took those three finishing holes off the course?  Last time I was there we just played the original course and I've never played the new holes.

Stuart,

We played St Cloud a few times - French Open and the Perrier - and it was always good fun. Underrated?

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2014, 04:32:09 PM »
Mike,

it hurt a lot, the new holes are vintage Steel. They have also lost all the details of their Simpson bunkers.

Sadly that seems to be the fate of many Simpson bunkers in France and Belgium, all under the argument that simpler bunkers are easier to maintain. It doesn't help that the clubs that accept this advice have no idea how Simpson wanted his bunkers to look like. Sad....

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2014, 04:37:26 PM »
I go back from time to time, see members, have dinner with my ex boss/friend & family and just enjoy getting nostalgic about my time there, including the blood, sweat & tears which is important. I gave it my all and loved being there, and I got a salary !

If I ever get the chance to build a similar course successfully, I'll settle for that, I think !?
The only trouble is the time it takes to mature, like good wine.

BTW, Steve Okula is a practically next door, but is phone doesn't work on the course despite my efforts. Maybe we should organize a round at Saint-Germain, what do you say Steve ?




Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2014, 04:38:48 PM »
Previous post for St-Germain, sorry !

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2014, 04:45:27 PM »
Mike,
If you asked that question a few years ago, I would have said St-Cloud has potential.
They are still some way from the finishing line, but things are moving in the right direction. My only comment would be the adopted style which is rather manicured, rather smooth as opposed to rustic charm.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: France Top 5
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2014, 04:51:08 PM »
Frank,

Agreed for the vintage Steel holes.
I actually like some of the bunker work they did at Chantilly.
Concerning Simpson bunker styles, what example would you give in France or Belgium as authentic ?

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