France Top 5

[Mark Chaplin]

Belle Dune is great "holiday golf".

[Ulrich Mayring]

Hardelot Les Pins is better holiday golf!

Ulrich

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne,
if I was a first time traveler to France, I would certainly have other priorities than golf. But isn't it true for anywhere in the world? (excepting Scotland maybe...)
If you would like to mix tourism with golf then I suggest you focus on the Paris area (Morfontaine etc.) and the South West (Hossegor, Chiberta, Biarritz, Medoc...)

I have a serious golf addiction, like must of us here, but I have been to France about 5-6 times, including a one week course at INSEAD that is located in Fontainebleau and I have never really wanted to spend my time there on a golf course.  I went to New Zealand and made sure that I could get to play golf at CK and KC.  One day I will make it to some French golf courses but for now I have focussed my attention on the attractions of Paris or the Vineyard Chateaux of Bordeaux.

[Sean_A]

Given the other interesting things to do in France, especially in Paris, what courses are worth playing for someone over from North America?  And where do you draw the line and say that my time in France is better spent enjoying Paris, or Bordeaux or wherever, as the golf experience is not appreciably better or more interesting than what one would get back home.

Wayne

Given the right course in the right spot and if you are a big fan of golf, playing a few games on holiday can be very worthwhile because the culture is different.  I do it often on my holidays and in many ways enjoy that more than pure golfing holidays (I often I get bored of golf on the back end of trips and would rather do touristy stuff).  Indeed, I plan to play Royal Zoute in a few weeks while in Belgium as a one off.  If I was hanging about Bordeaux I would certainly want to give the C&C course a go.  

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

I was in Bordeaux for the RWC in 2007 but I didn't play golf there either - it lloks like the Coore course opened in 89 didn't it?  It is kind of tricky to balance when you bring your wife along to attend a rugby tournament.  Going to a few games was interspersed with lots of wining and dining.  Golf would have been nice but you have to choose your spots.

[Sean_A]

Wayne

For sure, golf fits in when the schedule isn't hectic and I don't do hectic when I plan holidays    I am lucky in that my wife doesn't mind me playing a game or two on holiday so long as I get back for dinner 

Ciao

[Cristian]

My personal Top French courses (as they are now) would include Morfontaine, Saint-Germain, Hardelot and National.
With good restoration/renovation work, Fontainebleau and Chantilly would climb very high on the ladder, especially Fontainebleau which I agree might have world class potential.

Interesting comments by you and Frank. But the very top of the list what I would expect. Now I do know for sure I have to head back to Hardelot, since you rank it over La Mer! Would you still do so after the reno work is completely finished?

You nor Frank have mentioned Hossegor to my surprise. Have you played it? It is my favourite holiday course in SW-France.

I am not a fan of Belle Dune: The name promises links golf which it is not. Also holiday homes (Pierre et Vacances) very close to the course and some holes which are contrived (near 90 degree doglegs etc) and with iffy narrowness. My advice: Stay away. Other courses not mentioned which are a lot better than Belle Dune imho: Moliets, Dinard (if you are not into length too much), Chantaco (skip 17&18), Cannes Mandelieu.

I have not played, but I am very interested in the quality of St Cloud and St Nom la Breteche (looks interesting on TV).

For American visitors: Paris and France are great, but playing golf is a great way to get to know people and the (Golfing) culture of a country. I would certainly not advice staying away from especially classic golf on a trip of more than a few days. On the contrary: as a golfer one is priveleged to get to know a unique part of society. Also I very much doubt that many American golfers have easy access to better (classic) courses than the top 5 classics in France.

[Adam Lawrence]

My personal Top French courses (as they are now) would include Morfontaine, Saint-Germain, Hardelot and National.
With good restoration/renovation work, Fontainebleau and Chantilly would climb very high on the ladder, especially Fontainebleau which I agree might have world class potential.

Interesting comments by you and Frank. But the very top of the list what I would expect. Now I do know for sure I have to head back to Hardelot, since you rank it over La Mer! Would you still do so after the reno work is completely finished?

I'll throw my twopenn'orth in, having seen both last week. The work at Hardelot is further advanced, and, other than a bit more tree work, what really remains to be fixed there is turf quality. La Mer is a much bigger challenge - there is less original Colt work left there than there was Simpson at Les Pins, and its lows right now are quite a bit lower than those of Les Pins. But I believe that, ultimately, the bones of La Mer are _considerably_ better than those of Les Pins. A fully restored, or possibly even extensively renovated to world-class standards, La Mer would without doubt be one of France and Europe's top courses. There is nothing on Les Pins that matches the run of 9-11 on La Mer. (This shouldn't be taken as a slur on Hardelot, which is a very fine course).

[Kevin_D]

Are French courses like British in that they allow outside play for non-members?

[Adam Lawrence]

Mostly. A few are tough tickets - Morfontaine, Les Bordes and Vidauban particularly.

[Ulrich Mayring]

To be 100% correct, the name of Belle Dune promises a beautiful dune and delivers this:



It's not links golf, but it is sandy like Le Touquet. I guess additional holiday homes have sprung up since I played. But what was there in 2007 was well set back from the course, confined to the closing three holes and looked not like holiday homes, but like a small, colorful Scandinavian town on a lake. It actually enhanced the experience for me. Either they've ruined it since or I was high

I do give you narrowness (in parts) and quirk (a lot) and also contrived (which has, however, never stopped Pete Dye building a great hole). I've never played a course even remotely similar to Belle Dune, it's completely original.

Ulrich

[John Mayhugh]

Ulrich,
I played Belle Dune in July, and only saw houses on a few of the holes, and those just detract a bit visually.  Agreed it is completely original. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Apparently they blew you off with the tame version of the hole. When I played, the flag was behind the bunker, visible right between the stems of the two trees!

Also, have you ever seen an approach like that:



Yeah, it's completely contrived and has "trees in weird places". I do not blame anyone thinking this is just stupid or "crazy golf". But since we're talking golf architecture here, this course has more of that than most.

Ulrich

[Rich Goodale]

Let's be honest.  The top 5 French golf courses are as rare and as relevant as the top 5 German comedians or the top 5 Scottish bistros.

St. Jean de Monts is the best of the 5 I've played and it is very much worth playing again.

[John Mayhugh]

Ulrich,
When I played the course, the tree in your last pic was no longer there, so perhaps some improvements are being made.  I agree that there is some interesting architecture there, and especially enjoyed a number of the bunkerless greens.  Overall, though, I don't feel like the high points are good enough to redeem the low ones.  I would play the course again, but not at the expense of skipping a round at Le Touquet or Hardelot.

[Frank Pont]

Ulrich,
I played Belle Dune in July, and only saw houses on a few of the holes, and those just detract a bit visually.  Agreed it is completely original. 

We had holes like that at Hardelot, it's not too hard to improve them a lot....

[John Mayhugh]

Frank,
I didn't have to look at the before/after photos side by side to see the difference!

[Steve Okula]

Let's be honest.  The top 5 French golf courses are as rare and as relevant as the top 5 German comedians or the top 5 Scottish bistros.

Not so. France has several of Colt and Simpson, a Van Hagge, and a Coore, and various other notables, Jones Sr, Jones Jr, Hawtree, Dave Thomas, and a Doak is nearing completion.

[Rich Goodale]

Let's be honest.  The top 5 French golf courses are as rare and as relevant as the top 5 German comedians or the top 5 Scottish bistros.

Not so. France has several of Colt and Simpson, a Van Hagge, and a Coore, and various other notables, Jones Sr, Jones Jr, Hawtree, Dave Thomas, and a Doak is nearing completion.

Steve

To be honest, there are 15-20 decent Scottish bistros, but 50-100 golf courses that might be top 5 in France.  Re: german comedians, I can only refer to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U

Rich

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ok, I'll take the bait. There is actually some great German comedy and a few super comedians (although you might find some of them under different labels such as satirist or political cabaret). However, none of them are really known outside of the German speaking world, for obvious reasons. Those, who have ventured abroad and tried their luck in English, have failed miserably and rightfully. Comedy is usually married to the language and always to the culture. Some of the most popular English humour is not very funny to me as a German, because it pokes fun at a culture that doesn't exist for me.

To throw a name out there, one of my German favorites is Loriot, same period as Monty Python. He did Rowan Atkinson stuff before Rowan Atkinson.

But, to keep things in perspective, yes, the Scottish bistros comparison works. But those 15-20 are really good.

Ulrich

[Stuart Hallett]

Well done Ulrich !

I think that living in a foreign country for long enough dilutes cultural references, enabling an appreciation of foreign music (which is very tough at first) and comedy once you understand what the hell they are talking about.
Rich,
British food has improved a lot, but fundamentally, Scotland is not known for bistros, who cares ! We go there for other reasons.
However, French golf has a lot of history thanks to the British in the early days, and has some very good courses to boot. Talk to the locals in the South West of France and they can tell more stories than your average member of GCA. I'm currently working at Chantaco which is full of heritage and a rich golfing culture.

[Paul Gray]

Vidauban? Really? I've only ever driven passed it but it doesn't exactly look compelling.

Plenty of issues but it is a glorious spot. The super-exclusiveness adds to its allure I'm sure, but it is routinely listed in France's top 10. Sixth on Top100 fwiw.

Wonderful part of the world. That much is certainly true.

[Steve Okula]

Well done Ulrich !

I think that living in a foreign country for long enough dilutes cultural references, enabling an appreciation of foreign music (which is very tough at first) and comedy once you understand what the hell they are talking about.

That may be true for you Stuart, but after 13 years in France I still don't undersatnd the music or the comedy, or for that matter the politics.

[Rich Goodale]

Well done Ulrich !

I think that living in a foreign country for long enough dilutes cultural references, enabling an appreciation of foreign music (which is very tough at first) and comedy once you understand what the hell they are talking about.
Rich,
British food has improved a lot, but fundamentally, Scotland is not known for bistros, who cares ! We go there for other reasons.
However, French golf has a lot of history thanks to the British in the early days, and has some very good courses to boot. Talk to the locals in the South West of France and they can tell more stories than your average member of GCA. I'm currently working at Chantaco which is full of heritage and a rich golfing culture.

Stuart

Yes, British food has improved, but from an abysmally low level (I lived in England for six months in 1966, and am lucky to still be alive...), and it only shines in those places that charge prices equivalent to the top golf courses in Scotland (i.e. exorbitant).  Similarly, golf courses in France have improved, but again from a low level (excluding a few of the small number of golden age courses that were built by and for Brits).  Vis a vis German comedy I will defer to Ulrich, whom I know and respect.  Enjoy Chantaco.  It's in one of the few corners of France that I have not visited.

Rich

[Scott Warren]

French golf may not be of a consistently high level, but France is Top 3 for every single other thing there is, so I'll cop a sparse offering of great golf as the country's "downside".