[Bill Brightly]

I've just returned from my first trip to Scotland. We concluded our trip at North Berwick and on the outward nine I faced the strongest winds that I've ever played in. What great fun! For me, finally getting to see the original Redan was a great thrill. Playing with the wind on the pin cut front left, I hit a near perfect 6 iron (my 160 club) that landed on the front right of the green and rolled about 30 below the hole. Despite a questionable read by the caddy, I managed to two putt for par. A successful trip if that's all I did.

Here are some photos for you all to enjoy. From the tee:



I wonder if they ever use this area behind the stone wall as a championship tee?



The front bunkers which should not be in play:





The front left bunker:










From the left side of the green:




If you bail out right, these are the bunkers over the kickmound:
 

Back right behind the  green:

[Jeff Taylor]

Lucky you. I will never forget the punch 4 iron that I hit to the back of the green. The two putt par is something I will never forget.

[Thomas Dai]

Very nice Bill. I especially like the final photo, the one of the view from behind the green. It gives a good indication of slope. Many thanks for posting.
atb

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bill
Into the wind those bunkers cancome into play.
Playing  into the wind and from the back tee six weeks ago, I hit a very solid 2 hybrid into the left greenside bunker , then got up and down

[Bill_McBride]

Bill
Into the wind those bunkers cancome into play.
Playing  into the wind and from the back tee six weeks ago, I hit a very solid 2 hybrid into the left greenside bunker , then got up and down

I was in that bunker once.   

Helluva shot just to get out. 

[Mark McKeever]

Great pictures that bring back some even better memories.  Awesome hole.

Mark

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill,

the hole was originally a par four so played from behind the wall you photo'd.

Jon

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

the hole was originally a par four so played from behind the wall you photo'd.

Jon

Really? I have never heard that before. I'd say it would be a very important fact that one of the most famous par threes was originally a four.

Do you know how long it has been playing as a par 3?

[Keith Phillips]

I need to get back to North Berwick...I remember being underwhelmed by the Redan but absolutely stunned and blown away by 13 (Pit) and 16 (Gate) - the evening before we played we checked into the Marine hotel and we had a spectacular view of the green on 16...mind-boggling.

[Ronald Montesano]

I think it was called a "Reefdan" when it played as a four.

Seriously, though, this original has very little kick plate on the right, no?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I think that the more pertinent question might be ......

What USA Macdonald/Raynor/Banks, or other architect for that matter, Redan actually resembles the original? Blind Shot, Bunkers well in front of the green, not even in play. Huge tilting green from front to back well bunkered on both sides.

I was there at North Berwick myself a few weeks ago and I can't think of a single US version that compares in the least.

Please tell me one USA hole that approximates the original.

[Jon Cavalier]

Bill:

Thanks for sharing these. Gorgeous photos. I need to get over there. Badly.

[DMoriarty]

Regarding the issue of whether it was originally a par 4, I'd like to see more information on that.   I do recall that there was an old course listing or description that had the hole playing at something like 270 yards, but I have always wondered if this was accurate or not.  

The previous hole (the center of the previous green) is about 270 yards away so I suppose one possibility is that whatever source was used for this information was measuring from hole to hole rather than from teeing area to hole.  

ADDED: The hole supposedly was 266 yards, which looks like the exact distance from from middle of the previous green to the middle of the Redan green.

[Bill_McBride]

I think it was called a "Reefdan" when it played as a four.

Seriously, though, this original has very little kick plate on the right, no?

(In the Mucci voice).    Have you played North Berwick?

There is a definite right to left assist but not a huge kick plate.   But it works. 

[Bill Brightly]

I think that the more pertinent question might be ......

What USA Macdonald/Raynor/Banks, or other architect for that matter, Redan actually resembles the original? Blind Shot, Bunkers well in front of the green, not even in play. Huge tilting green from front to back well bunkered on both sides.

I was there at North Berwick myself a few weeks ago and I can't think of a single US version that compares in the least.

Please tell me one USA hole that approximates the original.

NGLA. When I stood on the back of North Berwick's Redan, I was amazed by how much NGLA's looked the same. NGLA's does not play uphill (the only knock one might have) but there is an element of blindness because you cannot see the ball as it rolls onto the green. However, the bunkering and the pitch of NGLA's absolutely mirrors NB's.

Having been to NB myself now, it is now obvious to me that CBM benefitted from seeing the actual hole, while Raynor and Banks did not.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I wonder if they ever use this area behind the stone wall as a championship tee?

Perhaps Simon Holt will confirm this.  I belive that area is a winter tee for the 4th.  Either way it's a difficult shot.

[Rich Goodale]

Regarding the issue of whether it was originally a par 4, I'd like to see more information on that.   I do recall that there was an old course listing or description that had the hole playing at something like 270 yards, but I have always wondered if this was accurate or not.  

The previous hole (the center of the previous green) is about 270 yards away so I suppose one possibility is that whatever source was used for this information was measuring from hole to hole rather than from teeing area to hole.  

ADDED: The hole supposedly was 266 yards, which looks like the exact distance from from middle of the previous green to the middle of the Redan green.

David

There is substantial evidence that the hole was (for a time) a 266 yard par 4, provided by myself and others on previous threads on this topic on this site.  The fact that the tee was very close to the previous green just proves the fact, given that in those days most greens and subsequent tees were very propinquitous (viz. the old course at St. Andrews, etc.)

[DMoriarty]

Rich, I recall the threads and the two stick routings which seem to suggest that the hole played at 266 yards.  I also recall at least a few potential snags in relying on this information:
1.  Accounts of matches from around the same time strongly suggest the hole was played as a par three.  In other words, there where were lots of threes and even an occasional two, and this would have been extremely unlikely if the hole played as a 266 yard par 4.
 2. I am unaware of any accounts of the ever hole playing as a 266 yard par four in any match, competition, or otherwise.  One would think that if this famous hole was a par 4, then there would be an account of playing as a par four somewhere.  

Just so we are clear, I consider it an unsettled question.  I am not saying that it was never played as a par 4 (I imagine it must have been during the time  when golfers were teed off from within a few club lengths of the previous hole.)   I am just not entirely convinced that it was played that way at the time of those stick routings.   But I remain willing to be convinced.

Are you aware of any actual accounts of the hole having played as a par four?  

[Jon Wiggett]

 I am not saying that it was never played as a par 4 (I imagine it must have been during the time  when golfers were teed off from within a few club lengths of the previous hole.)   Are you aware of any actual accounts of the hole having played as a par four?  

David,

so you accept it was played as a par 4 in the distant past. I do not think the absence of accounts from players saying it was a par 4 might be down to the fact that it was in a time when strokeplay was rare or even not practiced so par not relevant.

Jon

[DMoriarty]

Jon,  I not only accept that it was probably played from the previous hole in the distant past, I suggest that this might be the reason behind the 266 listing.   (But I'd probably have to go back and look to see if the previous hole was always in the same position.)

As for the rest, I seem to recall that there was some early record of scores on the hole which suggested it was a par 3 (plenty of 3s and an occasional 2), but honestly I haven't gone back to try and dig it up.   If a substantial numbers of golfers were scoring 3s, wouldn't that suggest the hole was played at a par three distance?

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

I am perplexed at your seeming desire to prove it was a par3. I you accept the distance of 266 as legitimate and the fact that this would still be considered a par4 by most people and the current guidelines then given the shorter distances hit pre 1900 I see no logic in the idea it would have been a 266 yard par 3. Define substantial in %.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Its a bit of a silly argument if the Redan played as a 3 or 4.  From what I can gather, the hole played for a short while as 266 yards, perhaps only for a few events.  It could also be the case that once the pros completed their event the hole was thought to be a par 3.  It doesn't matter though because the hole was the same as a 3 or 4. 

A more interesting question is why was Redan shortened to share a tee with #4.  I suspect the answer has to do with the previous hole.   

Ciao 

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

from when till when did it play as 266 yards? I would imagine a good reason for shortening the hole to where it is now might have been when the custom of playing from within a club's length of the last hole was abandoned in favour of more formal teeing grounds. Having said that the hole would regain much of its original formidability o 100 years ago if it were played from 40 to 50 yards further back.

Jon

[Jason Topp]

I have never looked closely at these slopes short of the green.  Do many replicas get these slopes right?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Its a bit of a silly argument if the Redan played as a 3 or 4. 

Sean,

I would disagree, I think the argument is relevant in terms of the relevance and impact of the architecture on the approach shot.

With a short wedge the hole plays significantly different than if the approach was with a mid or long iron

From what I can gather, the hole played for a short while as 266 yards, perhaps only for a few events. 

It could also be the case that once the pros completed their event the hole was thought to be a par 3. 


At 266 yards I doubt that anyone would have that thought.
266 yards is 266 yards and couldn't be mistaken for a par 3

It doesn't matter though because the hole was the same as a 3 or 4. 

A more interesting question is why was Redan shortened to share a tee with #4. 

Perhaps because someone put forth the idea that the hole was a weak par 4 but an incredibly strong par 3.

I suspect the answer has to do with the previous hole.   

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