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david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2003, 03:16:33 PM »
I think the tour is already going down that path with all of those crappy TPC's--Avenel, Hartford, VA Beach etc...

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2003, 03:50:19 PM »
Micheel was just trying to get the ball on the green on 18 according to his post-round interview with Kostis.

In regards to #16, the Christmas Tree in the left rough 5 yards in front of Chad Cambell's ball necessitated a play to the front middle or front right of that green.  Micheel, on the other hand, had a perfect angle from the right rough to the back left pin.  Wedge from 153?  He was strong enough, and lucky enough to have a rough lie good enough to get a wedge through to bounce one in there to 15 feet.  The pitching wedge travelled 135-140 on the fly, and the rest was roll.  

So, while Shaun Micheel got very lucky to get a good bounce on his tee shot in the first cut of rough on 18, the pivotal 16th hole birdie at Oak Hill was set up by playing the strategic angle off of the tee to be able to have a recovery that Campbell did not.

There was strategy at Oak Hill.

If you mission is to protect par at all costs you could "Tiger Proof" your Championship Track at Member National by creating:

A Par 70
Two Par 3's:  200 Carry & 230 Open Front
Sixteen Par 4's:  400 to 525 Yards
Water Galore
4 inch rough
Tucked pins 6 feet from edges in corners
12-13 stimp on severe back to front sloping greens
Very little greenside bunkering
6' deep fairway bunkers at 270-330
Hourglass fairways at same distances

Staff pyschologist and/or hair shirts for the members.

KLP

Let'em break Par - Par is for the expert 2% of all golfers - not the top 0.001%.

billb

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2003, 07:12:27 PM »
I like seeing different guys win and I thought Shaun Micheel showed great composure on the weekend.
My question is: did he aim that shot right at the flag? After he hit it, he immediately said "Be right!". He had to be playing for a par, so he must have been aiming at the middle of the green. I think he hit a pull and got away with one. Great game isn't it?

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2003, 07:37:40 PM »
Kenny Lee

I was standing 10 yards from Micheel when he hit that drive at 16.
He hardly looked like he was thinking of setting up a strategic angle .It was just a big ugly block to the right that could have just as easily gone left if he had flipped his hands a little earlier.
Campbell did miss on the worst side but he did hit an infinitly superior shot off the tee.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2003, 12:56:50 PM »
I know a few pros who still think that the ability to hit something other than a 'straight ahead' shot can make the difference between winning and losing.  And I still think the one shot type mentality cost Norman (and Phil) many majors.

Naturally, most of the creativity is now in the short game, and these guys (or anyone really) will hit the most comfortable shot to acheive a result.  What you hope for is an closing hole that CAN perhaps require a different shot, from the "wrong" place on the fairway, whether using reverse slopes, slopes in the fairway lie area, etc. to create at least some doubt other than true distance.

Perhaps its a pipe dream.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

tonyt

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2003, 12:52:05 AM »
Bill,

The very common caddy or player cry of "be right" refers to "being perfect" or "being right on", not to the right side as opposed to left. If a player hits it right on line, it comes down to club slection, and the old cries of "be the club" or "be the right stick" has now been commonly simplified on tour to "be right".

And it was Shaun's caddy who said it. He was just numbly watching it  :)

billb

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2003, 01:25:01 PM »
Tony,
Thank you, I stand corrected.
Bill

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2003, 09:37:57 AM »
Mike Clayton -

Interesting note from someone who was at ground level at 16.  Somethings are not always visable from the 2 dimensional 40" screen.

Nonetheless, NBC made an interesting point yesterday in regards to the 17th hole at Oakmont (Couldn't tell whether it was Maltbie or Koch).  The talked about how the Tour pros play the hole backwards in regards to the pin position, the attack angle, the club to get to that position from the tee, etc. - the things I have learned to do from many years of "How in the world did I bogey that hole?"

In this case, could "Luck is the residue of design?"

KLP

MargaretC

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2003, 06:39:08 PM »


I would have liked to see some "pros" immediately follow Whittenberg and Flanagan yesterday.   :P

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2003, 09:45:21 AM »
Tom/Shivas -

Isn't the Pro game about ball flight?

I played with Furyk two years ago at Harbour Town in the Pro-Am, and he wasn't more than two yards off the pin the entire day.  Standing on the 7th tee (Our 16th of the day), he needed birdie-birdie-birdie for 59.  Sadly he buried his tee shot in the front bunker and finished with 62 on a strategic (not long) course amped for tour conditions - fast fairways with roll too emphasize contour, firm and fast greens, 2" collar rough with a little club turning wire fertilized into it.  

The ball striking was beautiful to watch.  His approach shots were all in the 15' range - either short or long of the pin, but never more than 3 yards left or right.  While we accuse the pro game of being robotic, he used every club in the bag the way Dye (And Nicklaus) designed HT to play, and he never really had to make "A go for broke swing."

That said, even without "Perfect distance to the hole," Furyk was able to hit 17 tiny card table sized greens and make it look effortless.  This round was played on a course that was opened in the late 60's and modernized/reconditioned/restored by Dye the year prior.

Tom's point holds water in my book.  Worry about designing a course that delights and challenges the masses.  The Pros are going to shoot low numbers anyway.  The #1 defense a course has is the wind, and if you can design a difficult wind pattern, you problably only need to buy one lottery ticket.

KLP

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the Pro Game is Really All About
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2003, 01:43:11 PM »
Sometimes it is interesting to read the last reply of a thread and compare it to the first. Many times between the two the thread has wavered and meandered hither and yon; or at least off the main point. With this thread, I think I am the culprit.

Although I do think there is a feeling there must be something wrong with the golf world in general when a touring pro hits a great shot or posts a great number, I think I misinterpreted where Tom and Don were heading with this topic.

If it was about course setup in general, and major tournament course setup in particular, I am in complete agreement with the thesis that the 22 yard wide fairways, 8" rough and no chipping areas that are found in most majors are a disservice to the game, the fans, and the courses that they are played on. Majors would be much more enjoyable if they became thorough examinations (which would included chipping, not just chip outs; strategy such as where to leave a shot played from the rough, one that comes in "hot" to a firm green; and options, specifically, options as to what trajectory to use on approach shots to front pins where the bounce up is available; to just name a few).

If it is about the lack of relative importance of the architect's influence when a tour pro is "on" or has a "perfect yardage", I can see the point, but would add that isn't that when it is most fun to watch these guys play; when their talent KOs the noble intentions of the architect? (Think some of Tiger's fairway bunker shots at crucial points in championships). I would also add that at these points we are experiencing the essence of excellence in sports. It happens in every sport. When Roger Clemens is just unhittable; when Barry Bonds won't miss a "mistake" and won't swing at a great pitch; when Jordan hits 6(?) three pointers in the first quarter of a playoff game and just shrugs a shoulders as if to say, "What can I say?" when the great Earl Campbell ran through holes if they were there, or over linebackers if they were there.

Sometimes, the architect has to say, "Nothing I can do. That's too good." Because some of the suggestions would do more harm to the game than good ("Cut off the water, and roll the piss out of 'em."  That would only ensure dead greens the next week.)

But isn't that okay for the architect to say? Isn't that the essence of sport? Sometimes you "win" and sometimes the opponent is just too good?

Now if the governing bodies just wouldn't glorify "Par" as the opponent of the touring pro, these tournaments would be so much better. But that's probably another thread.

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