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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« on: April 09, 2002, 09:29:16 AM »
A few weeks ago I created a thread asking if anyone knew anything about George Duncan and his connection to Royal Dornoch. It has been widely reported (see Rich Goodale's Evolution of Royal Dornoch under 'My opinion') that Duncan was responsible for the changes after WWII that elevated Dornoch to one the great courses of the world. Although a relatively well known golfer, Duncan was not known for golf design activities and I was curious as to why he was chosen.  And how someone with his limited design experience and a frankly disappointing resume could possibly produce such wonderful results.

In an attempt to solve the mystery I first picked up Duncan's autobiography 'Golf at the Gallop' (written in 1951), to see if it might reveal any clues. Although it was an interesting account of the man - the title refers to Duncan's frightenly fast method of play - it did not reveal anything on his design career. The only mention of any design activity was a brief comment of Mere where he eventually became the professional, but not a single word of Dornoch.

I then went to the club itself and with assistance of the archivist Tom Tew and the Secreatary John Duncan, a picture emerged that made more sense. As Rich points out in his essay during WWII the Royal Air Force had requisitioned land to make way for an airstrip. Following the war the club decided to create six completely new holes (to replace those destroyed by the airfield) as opposed to resurecting what had been lost. Evindently what is now the 18th was formerly the 12th and play used to continue on six holes which today constitute the little Struie course. Among the consequences of thess changes would be a considerable stiffening of Dornoch's heretofore weak finish.

Having received permission from the Members to explore
the extension of the course, plans were submitted by the Head Green Keeper Robbie Grant and were broadly accepted. According to Tew it was the practice in those days to have any major plans rubber-stamped by a reputable professional. George Duncan, the former Open Champion, was approached. He accepted the offer and copies of the new extension were sent for his review prior to arrival. After arriving at Dornoch, Duncan, Grant & the club profesional Danny McCulloch walked the holes discussing the location of tees, bunkers and greens. There is some debate as to the enthusiasm of George Duncan and those at the club can only guess as to what this can be attributed. According to the archivist it may have been "possibly the very poor ground
available (an ancient raised beach head) or the forthright
attitude of Robbie Grant - a 'no messing' character
probably with local knowledge and set ideas."  Whatever his problem was, George Duncan did not dwell at Dornoch for too long, took his fee, galloped away and never returned.

The actual work was carried out by John R. Stutt, long time associate of James Braid. Stutt is one of the more anonymous talents of that era and has been credited for a great deal of Braid's success. At this time he was working in conjunction with MacKenzie Ross and Colt's partner John Morrrison. He had just completed the reclamation work at Turnberry, which had also been used during the war as an airfield. So it appears that Grant and Stutt may deserve a little more of the credit and perhaps Duncan a little less.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2002, 09:44:40 AM »
Tom -

Great stuff.  Thanks.  Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2002, 09:48:52 AM »
Ditto.

That makes a lot of sense, Tom.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2002, 07:02:17 AM »
I forgot to mention yesterday that the Club has found no previous connection to Duncan, and that they believe his choice was due to his fame as a champion golfer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2003, 08:18:23 AM »
Rich
Regarding the course alterations at Dornoch, largely repsonsilbe for elevating the course to its present high level, this is what I found.

ForkaB

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2003, 08:36:55 AM »
Tom

Thanks for confirming that the new holes at RDGC were a collaboration between Duncan, Stutt, McCulloch and Grant, and not Stutt's alone, as you have implied in previous posts.  Get your facts straight, man!  You might also check out many of the statements you made in that long lost thread, particularly about the finish of the old Dornoch.  Whilst not as good as the curent version, it was anything but "weak."  I know.  I've played those 6 holes, which are now mostly NLE.

I sometimes regret informing you a few years ago that the famous Royal Dornoch was in fact signifcantly a recent "renovation."  I thought you had got over that shock, but it seems that I was wrong.  May I suggest a few months recuperation at Dr. Katz's newly opened holistic reprogramming and health spa at Torrey Pines?  Maybe you can even get a few holes in at Rees' latest masterpiece in the bargain?

T_MacWood

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2003, 08:53:27 AM »
Rich
Re-read my post...Duncans contribution is in doubt, those in-the-know at the club lean toward Grant and Stutt...with Stutt the experienced professional.

While I would love to give you credit for the revelation regarding the post WWII alterations, anyone who owned C&W's fine books--the first addition I believe came out in the mid-70's--was aware of the key alteration after the war. The British magazine Golf World also produced a book in the 80's that detailed the changes to Dornoch. And if I'm not mistaken Golf Magazine's World Top 100 lists the contribution in the 40's--and has for some time.

But who cares who said what when, the fact that info can be shared on this site for anyone who might be interested is the important thing. Your My Home Course on Dornoch was very good...I took the liberty to track down what was a mystery to me (and to you) regarding Duncan's connection and involvement. No big deal.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 08:54:29 AM by Tom MacWood »

ForkaB

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2003, 09:07:06 AM »
Tom

You do not seem to remember previous posts when you expressed astonishment at the reasonably well doumented changes at Dornoch, but that's all right--one's memory goes as the body ages.  Keep well.

T_MacWood

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2003, 10:01:55 AM »
No, not me. Perhaps you've confused me with someone else who expressed astonishment with one of your posts.

The first I heard tale of the big change at Dornoch was a book I bought at Mort O's Olde Golf Shop in Cinti many years ago...I believe the shop has been closed for a decade now. It also in Pennink's fine book which I've had for ten or so years.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 10:19:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2003, 10:26:31 AM »
To all knowledgeable about Dornoch: We will be celebrating our 25th  wedding anniversary in Scotland, starting in Dornoch, heading down the eastern coast to St Andrews and then to North Berwick. We are playing Royal Dornoch(3x), Tain,Nairn, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, Carnoustie, TOC, Kingsbarn, North Berwick(a personal favorite), and Gullane.  Are there any other "can't miss " courses or points of interest along that route. We are travelling with another couple  and have a driver with us the whole trip , so he could find some "out of the way" destinations, golf or not golf related. I appreciate any  experiences you may have had. thanks, Mark
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

THuckaby2

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2003, 10:32:12 AM »
Mark:

a) the fact you are doing all that with your wife indicates to me that she is a saint - can she conduct "how to be a golf wife" classes for mine?  But it's obvious to me why you've lasted 25 years anyway - congratulations!

b) the fact you are doing all that with your wife also would preclude really the only "can't miss" on that route - Muirfield.  Oh well... you're playing so many great courses as it is that you are really missing nothing.  Obviously if you have time, head over to Machrihanish.. but that is quite out of the way.  I also assume you won't go south of Edinburgh to the Turnberry/Troon/Prestwick/Western Gailes are....

c) outside of all this, there are lots of other hidden gems to see, but others can comment on those.  Seems to me if you have unlimited time, get to the hidden gems for sure... But if you have finite time for the trip, you are hitting all the big names, that's for sure.

d) you need Rich Goodale to comment on everything else!

TH

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2003, 10:48:46 AM »
Tom, we celebrated our 1st anniverary on a Sunday and I usually played early that day, I said "happy anniversary, honey, what do you want to do today?", thinking we would be together all day. She replied    "you are always back after lunch, lets have a nice afternoon and evening". I thought she had a boyfriend! Now THAT  reply is what helps make it to 25 years.  Rosemary (my wife) loves the  game but she grew up with her father playing every weekend and that sure helped set the pace.  We will not make it further west than Gullane this time, so everything  from Muirfield west will have to be visited next trip.Are  any of the hidden gems that you have seen worth playing  later in the day? thanks,
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

GeoffreyC

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2003, 10:55:43 AM »
Mark

You have a nice group of courses to play.  The only sleeper I could recommend highly that is right in the area is Royal Aberdeen. It is a true gem.

ForkaB

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2003, 11:00:09 AM »
Mark

Let me know your timing and rough itinerary publically (here) or privately (e-mail/message) and I'll give you what advice I can.  Out of curiosity, where did you get married?  Since I got married in Dronoch, maybe I'll go to your venue for my 25th!

THuckaby2

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2003, 11:02:55 AM »
Mark:

Rosemary sounds like a wonderful woman, but then again, you already knew that.   ;D   I complain all the time here about my wife and the battles I face to get my golf in, but I end up playing so much golf that well... my Holly is pretty saintly too.

As for hidden gems along the way, well... that's not my forte, I've only hit those same big names that you have planned.  But others here are very expert in such things, particularly Mr. Goodale... He'll see this soon enough, I'm sure.

In the meantime, if all you do is play those courses and sight-see kind of at random, you will still have a fantastic trip with no regrets, as I see it anyway.

Congrats once again on 25 years!

TH

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2003, 11:12:42 AM »
Mark,

I don't know if you have played it or not but I like Old Musselburgh.  Bumpy mad greens and it is the oldest course in the world.  

Have a pint in Mrs Formans if you dare, it is abit rough these days though.

It is cheap, quick and it has been an Open venue.

If you like North Berwick (one of my top courses of the world) then Mussleburgh is a laugh.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2003, 11:20:49 AM »
Geoff- thanks for the  clue about Royal Aberdeen... we are playing it.  and I remember reading in blasted heaths and blesssed greens that all the members are  looking down at you through the picture window as you hit your tee shot on #1, last time(5 years ago) I hit 3 wood to make sure to get it in play. Any other points of interest?    Rich, Unless you  want to go to South Bend , Indiana.....Wait a minute ..., they have a new Coore /Crenshaw on campus...we were married at the ND campus cathedral, you could check it out on the way to the tee. Also , Chicago is only 70 miles away. ......Tom, sincere thanks for the congrats, like  you with Holly, I  lucked out too.
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

GeoffreyC

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2003, 11:40:06 AM »
Mark

I'll sign up for a reading comprehension course immediately  :P

Mr. Finegan's book is right on about the course.  There are a few similar first tee shots in golf and they all seem to be pretty special.  RA is certainly included in them.

I don't have any other recommendations within that area.  I've played Dunbar but I would not go out of my way or subsitiute it for a second round at any that are on your list. Perhaps for a bit of a change you might want to see Gil Hanse's course at Crail (Craighead). Ran has a nice review of the course and I concur with his opinion.  Also, the head pro, Graham Lennie (spelling) is a great guy and he will tell you some interesting stories of his visit to the US at Merion and Pine Valley and his interactions with his friend Mr. Finegan.  Actually, thinking of it, Craighead would be a good addition.  
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 11:40:50 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2003, 11:54:24 AM »
Geoff- thanks for the suggestions, if you think of any others , post me your thoughts, thanks.
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2003, 12:46:05 PM »
Mark Studer-

While I have not played it, I have heard very good things about the Old Course at Moray Golf Club, in the village of Lossiemouth, which is on the coast about 30 miles east of Nairn. I understand it is more of a links course than Nairn.

Another course worth a look is Murcar, which is adjacent and immediately to the north of Royal Aberdeen. Again, I have not played it.

Golspie, about 7 miles north of Dornoch, is a personal favorite of mine that I have played many times.

DT  

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2003, 03:03:01 PM »
Lossiemouth excellent course BUT:

RAF fighters overhead at 100-500 feet are LOUD!!! >:(

Worth it once to see for yourself - stick to Nairn after that.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2003, 04:05:19 PM »
Geoff -

Have you heard anything about the changes to the back nine at Royal Aberdeen?

When I played there last summer there was talk about changes to 10, 11 and 12, as I recall.

Bob

ForkaB

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2003, 04:09:56 PM »
Bob

I'll be up at RA for a tournament in a few weeks, and I know the head greenkeeper pretty well.  I'll find out, if you wish.

GeoffreyC

Re:Royal Dornoch and George Duncan
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2003, 04:37:37 PM »
Bob

Its been a number of years since I've been to Royal Aberdeen. I'd be interested to read what Rich finds out.  I recall those holes among the more quirky on the course but I can still recall many details and shots from my round and that is a sure sign to me that the course has interest and merit.

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