Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)

[Kevin Lynch]

Joe Bausch & I worked on a research stint for Willowdale (now Westwood CC) in the suburbs of Buffalo.  Park's original 9 holes remain in use.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55850.msg1296166.html#msg1296166

[Scott Macpherson]

Ben, Yannick


WP Jr also designed the "Royal" course at Royal Quebec GC (opened June 1925). I think this may have been the last course he designed as after supervising the construction work he was taken back to Scotland in poor health and died in the spring of 1925, prior to the course opening.

Scott

[BCowan]

Kevin, Scott, and Joe

Thanks, updates made

My hunch is Willie made the comment to various clubs that ''this is the best piece of land I have ever seen for a golf course''.  

[Sven Nilsen]

A few updates for the US (culled from various sources):

Ashbourne CC (Ashbourne, PA)
Bellefonte CC (Ashland, KY)
Boonsboro CC (Lynchburg, VA) - Consultation
CC of Farmington (Farmington, CT)
Glen Ridge CC (Glen Ridge, NJ)
Grand Rapids CC (Grand Rapids, MI) aka Lakeview CC
Green Valley CC (Waynesburg, PA) oka Marble Hall Links
Grove Park Inn & CC (Asheville, NC) fka Asheville CC oka Swannanoa G&CC
John H. Cain GC (Newport, NH) (possibly the same as Newport GC)
Knollwood CC (White Plains, NY)
Miami Beach GC (Bay Shore) (Miami Beach, FL) aka Alton Beach
Misquamicut GC (Westerly, RI)
Pittsburgh Field Club (Pittsburgh, PA)
Schuykill CC (Pottsville, PA)
Shelburne Farms Links (Shelburne, VT)
St. Albans CC (St. Albans, NY)
St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Triple A CC

I have also seen passing references to Park having worked at Canoe Brook, Cherry Valley and Goshen.  Nothing concrete enough to look into further.

[Chris DeToro]

I thought Misquamicut in RI was a Donald Ross but could be mistaken

[Sven Nilsen]

I thought Misquamicut in RI was a Donald Ross but could be mistaken

Misquamicut dates back to 1895, prior to Donald Ross coming over here.  The 1899 Golf Guide notes the first 9 holes was laid out by W. Park in 1895 with the second 9 by W. Anderson in 1896.

There are quite a few courses on these lists that are Ross and Park, at different times, along with a number of other architects.

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  I thought Grove Park Inn was Barker?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Willie was hired by my club, Scarboro in Toronto, to renovate the course in 2914 but he returned home in the fall of 1924 and passed away in Scotland in the first half of 1925.  The club called the USGA and asked for them to recommend an architect which led to the hiring of A.W. Tillinghast.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,  I thought Grove Park Inn was Barker?

David:

Grove Park Inn is one of the toughest courses to pin down who did what when, particularly due to the various name changes.  At different times it was known as:

Grove Park Inn & CC
Asheville CC
Asheville G&CC
Swannanoa G&CC
Swannanoa Hunt Club

From what I've gathered, the course began as a 9 holer laid out by J. McCloskey in 1897 (it was noted as Swannanoa CC in a Jan. 1898 Golf Magazine article).  The 1899 Golfer's Guide notes a new and better nine hole course was laid out in the Fall of 1899.  The name changed to Asheville CC in 1905, with a second 9 holes being added around 1907 (although I've seen dates for the work being done by Barker in 1911).  The Givens Library has Park doing work in 1909, which doesn't coincide with the 1917 date given for him from other sources.  Ross came in some time later, and some sources claim the second 9 holes is his.  The course became Grove Park Inn some time in the 70's.

The early guides match up with the change to 18 holes in the range of the dates given above for Barker and Park (the 1908 Golfer's Guide has 9 holes, while the 1916 Annual Guide notes 18).

If you have additional information on any of this, please let me know.

[Sven Nilsen]

Another interested party sent me a message with a question regarding Green Valley CC.  Another confusing case due to one club purchasing the course of another, resulting in a name change:

1919 - Park builds Green Valley CC in Roxborough.

1924 - Flynn/Toomey build Marble Hall Links.

1940's - Members of Green Valley CC purchase the Marble Hall course and move locations.  Subsequently original Green Valley course is NLE.


Sven

[DMoriarty]

Sven,

I think there have been a number of threads where Grove Park has been discussed.  Here is a link to a Tom MacWood thread wherein he straightens out some of the history.  (Ironically, by the time Tom straightened it out, the course had already done extensive Ross restoration work, even though Ross's work there was minimal at most.)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18432.0.html

The gist is that the course couldn't have been Willie Park in 1909 because Park wasn't in the country.  Tom MacWood was able to put Park there in 1916-1917, but changes were not made to the course at this point, and Tom suggested that either Park had suggested changes which were not carried out, or that Park had offered plans for a second course that was not built.

Either way, while Park did list it in his advertising, it doesn't sound like it is a Park course.  Or at least there is no evidence confirming that it is a Park course.

[Joey Chase]

Ben,

I don't know if any changes were made over the years but Monte Carlo Golf Club in Monaco is, or was, a Park Jr. Course.

[Rich Goodale]

Can anyone comment on the Peterhead Courses. These are near enough Cruden Bay and I winder should I take a look when I am there?

I have sung the praises of BurntIsland many times on this site

Wardo

I've played the Old Course at Peterhead, and it is a very solid links course, even though the first three holes are slightly agricultural.  It is the 3rd most important site in Peterhead, after the craft brewery (Brewdog) and its recently abandoned Victorian prison.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I think there have been a number of threads where Grove Park has been discussed.  Here is a link to a Tom MacWood thread wherein he straightens out some of the history.  (Ironically, by the time Tom straightened it out, the course had already done extensive Ross restoration work, even though Ross's work there was minimal at most.)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18432.0.html

The gist is that the course couldn't have been Willie Park in 1909 because Park wasn't in the country.  Tom MacWood was able to put Park there in 1916-1917, but changes were not made to the course at this point, and Tom suggested that either Park had suggested changes which were not carried out, or that Park had offered plans for a second course that was not built.

Either way, while Park did list it in his advertising, it doesn't sound like it is a Park course.  Or at least there is no evidence confirming that it is a Park course.

David:

I've read every thread on this site that discusses Grove Park Inn.  While the thread you linked to does have some interesting information on DR's involvement, it does little to prove or disprove Park's involvement.

MacWood did offer the supposition that Park may have proposed plans for a new course in 1916-17 (I am also aware that Park was not in the country in 1909, but wanted to point out the discrepancy in the record from the source noted).

Sven

[DMoriarty]

Sven,

Likewise, the listing in Park's promotional material doesn't prove he designed it, especially given that there is no indication elsewhere that Park did anything on the ground in 1916-17 or at any other time.   I don't think it makes sense to list Park as the designer (or even one of the designers) without some proof.

The best evidence I recall that strongly suggested it couldn't have been Park was the stick routing from circa 1913.  As I recall, stick routing showed the same basic course as existed long after Park supposedly (re)designed it, with the only changes relating to the area around the new clubhouse (the minor Ross changes.)

[Scott Macpherson]

Ben,

I have gone through the book on Willie Park Jr by Walter Stephen and cross checked the courses they list with the courses you list, and here are the courses that you might consider adding to your list;

I might make the note that some of the courses may have altered, some may no longer exist, some may have changed name. I am not sure of the extent of Park's work on these courses and have not crossed checked the list against other sources for accuracy, but I am sure someone will do that in due course. Either way, it is an impressive list of work, and one that should be documented properly.

Scotland

Bo'ness
Bridge of Weir
Carnoustie
Crieff
Dalkeith and Newbattle
Forres
Gailes
Glencorse
Glasgow
Granton-on-Spey
Innellan
Jedburgh
Kilspindie
Melrose
Monifieth
Murrayfield
New Luftness
Selkirk
Shiskine
St Boswells
Torwoodlee
Turnhouse

England
Acton
Aldeburgh
Alnworth
Barry
Berkhamstead
Berwick-upon-Tweed
Bexhill
Blundell Sands
Brighton & Hove
Broadstone
Cambridge University
Cannon's Park
Chiselhurst
Coombe Hill
Cuckfield
Edgeware
Formby
Gravesend
Frinton-on-Sea
Goswick
Hartlepool
Headingley
Hendon
Knebworth
Lombardzide
Muswell Hill
Neasdon
Newbigging-by-Sea
Northhampton
Nottingham
Richmond
Seaford
Sheerness
Shooters Hill
Sunbridge Park
Tooting Bec
Totteridge
Tranmere
Tynemouth
Wembley
West Middlesex

Ireland
Killarney
Larne
Londonderry

Europe
Antwerp
La Boulie
Dieppe
Costbelle, Hyeres
Dinard
Evian-les0Bains
Monte Carlo
Rouen
Vienna

Canada
Abitibi Power and Paper Co, Iroquois Falls, ON
Bowness GC, Calgary, AB
Calgary St Andrews GC, Calcary, AB
Islesmere GC, Islesmere, QC
Kentville GC, Kentville, NS
Senneville Country Club, Senneville, QC
Summerlea GC, Montreal, QC

USA
Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI
Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH
Glen Ridge Country Club, Glen Ridge, NJ
Grand Rapids Country Club, Grand Rapids, MI
Green Valley Country Club, Roxborough, PA
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ
Pittsburgh Field Club, Pittsburgh, PA
St Albans Golf Club, St Albans, NY
State College, State College, PA

Just have a question about Rolland Road GC in MD. You say 'Rolling Road'. Is this correct, or is it 'Rolland'?

[Mark Pearce]

The club certainly attribute Goswick to Braid.  I don't know the basis for that or the history of the course.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Mark,

Yes, getting the correct attribution is difficult some times. I don't know much more about Goswick, but based on the dates Park and Braid were active, it could be that Braid may have come along and redesigned/renovated the course after Park. I think this is what happened at Royal Burgess.

Also, the course Park deigned at Dalkeith and Newbattle is not the course that exists now. Both were on the Newbattle Estate, but Park's 9-hole course (1896) was about a mile from the 18-hole Dalkeith and Newbattle course designed by Colt, Alsion & Morrison (in 1934), and was abandoned when the guttie ball was replaced by the rubber-cored ball.

Scott

[Tom Kelly]

BC,

Its a pedantic point I'm afraid, but the entry for Notts should really read "Notts Golf Club (Hollinwell)" as that is the full title.

Notts being the club, which was previously at a couple of other courses in the later part of the 19th Century (one now known as Bulwell Forest was also laid out by Park Jnr I think?) before moving to its current course known as Hollinwell in 1901 the original layout for which was done by Park Jnr.

Cheers,

James

I didn't realise Bulwell was a Park Jnr too, though to be honest I'd never bothered to even think about who designed it. I've always quite liked it, far more interesting than the other muni's in Nottingham and you always see some interesting sights from the local estate too.....It's pretty tight on space now but the routing covers the hillier parts of the course well which does seem quite Park like so you could well be right.

If you want fast & firm it's always a good bet during the summer!

I've been doing abit of fishing about Tom Dunn and found a GCA IMO piece by Tom MacWood which quotes Dunn as saying he laid out Bulwell Forest. Not sure whether Willie Park then altered the layout afterwards though?

[James Boon]

Tom, and Ben,

I did a bit more digging myself...

I've a photocopy of a Willie Park Junior advert (will edit with the correct date later today when I get home) that states both Hollinwell and Nottingham. These are also both mentioned in the recent biography as Scott mentions below.

The specific mention of both Hollinwell and Nottingham is what probably lead me to assume that Park Junior had also done at least some work at Bulwell Forest which only got its name when Notts GC moved to Hollinwell and would previously have been referred to as Nottingham and then formally shortened to Notts (again will edit with dates later...). However, a quick read though the two history books of the club and I didnt see a specific mention of this, but will look more thoroughly and report back.

Cheers,

James

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Likewise, the listing in Park's promotional material doesn't prove he designed it, especially given that there is no indication elsewhere that Park did anything on the ground in 1916-17 or at any other time.   I don't think it makes sense to list Park as the designer (or even one of the designers) without some proof.

The best evidence I recall that strongly suggested it couldn't have been Park was the stick routing from circa 1913.  As I recall, stick routing showed the same basic course as existed long after Park supposedly (re)designed it, with the only changes relating to the area around the new clubhouse (the minor Ross changes.)

David:

There is nothing dispositive either way, nor on the extent of his work.  My preference for a comprehensive listing would be to note Park's visit with the disclaimer that it is unclear what exactly he did.  That is how I have it in my files.

Sven

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ben,

I have gone through the book on Willie Park Jr by Walter Stephen and cross checked the courses they list with the courses you list, and here are the courses that you might consider adding to your list;

I might make the note that some of the courses may have altered, some may no longer exist, some may have changed name. I am not sure of the extent of Park's work on these courses and have not crossed checked the list against other sources for accuracy, but I am sure someone will do that in due course. Either way, it is an impressive list of work, and one that should be documented properly.

Scotland

Bo'ness
Bridge of Weir
Carnoustie
Crieff
Dalkeith and Newbattle
Forres
Gailes
Glencorse
Glasgow
Granton-on-Spey
Innellan
Jedburgh
Kilspindie
Melrose
Monifieth
Murrayfield
New Luftness
Selkirk
Shiskine
St Boswells
Torwoodlee
Turnhouse

England
Acton
Aldeburgh
Alnworth
Barry
Berkhamstead
Berwick-upon-Tweed
Bexhill
Blundell Sands
Brighton & Hove
Broadstone
Cambridge University
Cannon's Park
Chiselhurst
Coombe Hill
Cuckfield
Edgeware
Formby
Gravesend
Frinton-on-Sea
Goswick
Hartlepool
Headingley
Hendon
Knebworth
Lombardzide
Muswell Hill
Neasdon
Newbigging-by-Sea
Northhampton
Nottingham
Richmond
Seaford
Sheerness
Shooters Hill
Sunbridge Park
Tooting Bec
Totteridge
Tranmere
Tynemouth
Wembley
West Middlesex

Ireland
Killarney
Larne
Londonderry

Europe
Antwerp
La Boulie
Dieppe
Costbelle, Hyeres
Dinard
Evian-les0Bains
Monte Carlo
Rouen
Vienna

Canada
Abitibi Power and Paper Co, Iroquois Falls, ON
Bowness GC, Calgary, AB
Calgary St Andrews GC, Calcary, AB
Islesmere GC, Islesmere, QC
Kentville GC, Kentville, NS
Senneville Country Club, Senneville, QC
Summerlea GC, Montreal, QC

USA
Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI
Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH
Glen Ridge Country Club, Glen Ridge, NJ
Grand Rapids Country Club, Grand Rapids, MI
Green Valley Country Club, Roxborough, PA
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ
Pittsburgh Field Club, Pittsburgh, PA
St Albans Golf Club, St Albans, NY
State College, State College, PA

Just have a question about Rolland Road GC in MD. You say 'Rolling Road'. Is this correct, or is it 'Rolland'?

Scott and Ben I find the Walter Stephen book as a poor record of anything. e.g. he writes of his visit to Portstewart without noting that 9 of the holes he played were from 1990 and as noted above Park only did revisions there.

[Sven Nilsen]

To avoid any confusion, many of the US courses Scott provided as additions have been noted elsewhere in this thread:

USA

Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL - this is the same as the Miami Beach CC Bayshore Course.
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC - this is the same as Grove Park Inn.
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ - Same as Atlantic City CC.
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA - Same as Milton-Hoosic Club.
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA - Same as CC of New Bedford.
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI - Same as CC of New Canaan.
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ - Same as Greate Bay CC.
State College, State College, PA - Same as Blue and Nittany courses at Penn State.

I have some questions regarding some of the other listings:

Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD - Attributed to Willie Dunn.
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI - Pretty sure this is a confusion with Agawam, which was originally designed by Park.  The members of Agawam purchased the Metacomet course in the 20's, which I understand was built by Ross.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's the information on Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn from the Tufts site:

Scope & Content:

Asheville, Country Club of
Lake View Park
Beaver Lake Country Club
Willie Park - 1909 - 9
Ross Course - (R) - add 9 - 1924

Asheville Country Club - Grove Park Inn - Ross Designed Course Information Sheet completed by Tony Sparacino, General Mgr.

Beaver Lake Country Club Hole 16 layout
Asheville CC was Beaver Lake
Current Grove park was Asheville CC
Therefore- Asheville & Grove Park Are
Ross Course

Title:

Asheville, Country Club of

There is so much wrong with this listing that I'm not really sure where to start.

First, CC of Asheville and Asheville CC were not one and the same.  CC of Asheville came to be in the 1970's when the Beaver Lake course was renamed.

Second, the 1909 date for Park, as noted in this thread, is wrong.

Third, by 1924 the Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn course already had 18 holes.

This is just one example of how name changes can muddle the historical record.  The following is a Sept. 6, 1931 article from The Pittsburgh Press discussing golf in the Asheville area.  The following courses in Asheville are noted:

Asheville CC - the course that became Grove Park Inn
Lake View Park course - with the note that it is under the supervision of "the Asheville Club."  I believe this was Beaver Lake CC, which later became CC of Asheville.
Biltmore Forest CC
Malvern Hills Club
Asheville Municipal GC

[Sven Nilsen]

One final note on Asheville.

O.B. Keeler penned a short work called Golf in North Carolina.  I'm not sure of the exact date, but in it he states he visited Asheville again a dozen years after the Jones/Ouimet exhibition match, placing the writing in the early 30's.

http://books.google.com/books?id=A8gWAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT41&dq=%22asheville+country+club%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G00HVKWCOaq6igKf_oDAAw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22asheville%20country%20club%22&f=false

Here's his quote on the courses in Asheville:

"Five courses, in and above Asheville; the Asheville Country Club, Ernest Ballard, professional, its 6,057 yards greatly revised, and a clubhouse with a couple of dozen guest-rooms.  The Biltmore Forest Country Club at Biltmore - where we found the fifteenth annual Women's Invitational Tournament about starting; the Beaver Lake Golf Club, with my old friend, Henry Westall, as manager; the Municipal Golf Course; and the Malvern Hills Golf Club, the last three public courses, and all but the first and last named creations of Donald Ross."