Drastic renovations

[Matthew Sander]

Ian, first off, I was fairly intoxicated when I posted that, but I'll stand behind my drunken logic.  

I've always been told a remodel is when the the course is blown up and the routing changes while a renovation, drastic or subtle, keeps the routing in tact.  On #1 Tom and Brian rerouted ~6 of the holes.  And the camel shapeshifted.  That's the end all be all right there.  

I can be swayed by a convincing argument, tho.

I see no need for convincing. We were simply replying to the OP. Chris was asking for courses that have been completely changed, and maybe he should have used "remodel" instead of "renovation". Regardless, I think Medinah #1 is exactly the type of project he was referring to.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

TPC Sawgrass

TPC Avenel now TPC Potomac at Avenel Farm

[Ian Andrew]

Around Toronto:

The National was built over the original Pine Valley GC
Glen Abbey is built over another former course
Mandarin is over the old Windmills course
Scarboro was completely rebuilt over the original Cumming course – although 4th was left in place
Mississaugua has seen multiple iterations and 10 architects
Credit Valley has two halves of two holes from the original Thompson course
Rees Jones recent rebuild of Lambton

Likely missing quite few ... but there’s a long history of this occurring and that took 2 minutes to think of.

[David_Tepper]

All but 3 or 4 holes on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club were radically changed by Tom Weiskopf 15 or so years ago. Playing corridors were changed, holes were reversed, green sites were moved, etc.

[BCrosby]

Sunningdale Old.
Woking


Bob

[Ian Mackenzie]

All but 3 or 4 holes on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club were radically changed by Tom Weiskopf 15 or so years ago. Playing corridors were changed, holes were reversed, green sites were moved, etc.

I remember when the closing holes basically fell into the Pacific during the "El Nino" of 1998 where it rained 27 straight days in SF in Feb of that year. Love the Ocean Course, especially the back 9.

[Ed Homsey]

Oak Hill East?

[Tom_Doak]

It occurred to me after seeing Ian's post, that several of Dr. MacKenzie's best courses were actually renovations, and quite drastic ones at that.

Lahinch was a renovation, he only kept a few holes.
Royal Melbourne was a renovation -- nearly every hole was rerouted, although some of the previous green sites or fairway corrdiors were kept.
Kingston Heath was a renovation -- essentially a rebunkering.
Crystal Downs was a renovation -- there was an original nine-hole course, though he only used one green site from it.

[Jaeger Kovich]

IMB CC into The Village Club of Sandspoint
Deepdale into The Village of Lake Success because of the LIE
I'm 90% sure Quaker Ridge was a John Duncan Dunn w less than 18 holes before Tillinghast

What about St Andrews in Yonkers?
Could one say Pinehurst #2 and Donald Ross did it to itself with the conversion from sand to grass greens?


... Doing a "Drastic renovation" seems to be the best/only way to build a new course these days in the US with the amount of places up for sale and the ease of zoning.

[Chris DeToro]

Yes, I probably should've used the term remodel as opposed to renovation.  I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?  That was sort of the influence for the post

[Wayne_Kozun]

I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer? 

It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler.  If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much.  Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.

By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.

[Chris DeToro]

I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?

It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler.  If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much.  Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.

By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.

I agree that Hanse gives them a marketing advantage, especially in this region of the country.  Stylistically and fairly, to an extent, at what point are the changes such that more credit be due to the remodel/redesign?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer?

It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler.  If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much.  Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.

By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.

I agree that Hanse gives them a marketing advantage, especially in this region of the country.  Stylistically and fairly, to an extent, at what point are the changes such that more credit be due to the remodel/redesign?

I tell you what -

His star has really risen if Gil Hanse's name gives a bigger marketing advantage than Arnold Palmer's...

[John Kirk]

A famous and interesting "drastic" renovation is by Robert Trent Jones at Eugene CC (1967).  If I'm not mistaken, Jones reversed the course completely, placing the 1st tee where the 18th green was, the 1st green where the 18th tee was, and so on.

The original design was by Chandler Egan, a well known northwestern U.S. architect.

[BCrosby]

There are more 'drastic' renovations than people appreciate. Most of the extant Ross courses in Georgia (Athens CC being an exception) are 'drastic' renovations. East Lake and Augusta CC, for example, are both complete redo's of older designs.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

I live not far from TPC and it's been commonly referred to me as a "Gil Hanse" course now and I was just curious as to what point of changes do you start referring to the remodeler instead of the original designer? 

It probably depends on the perceived marketing advantage of the original designer vs remodeler.  If the course was originally designed by Donald Ross then Hanse would not be mentioned as much.  Although Palmer was involved in the original design his courses don't generally have a great reputation.

By the way if you go to the "architect" section of the club's website it only mentions Gil Hanse and Brad Faxon.

This is pretty common in the business now.  We have had a few feelers lately about projects where I suspect the goal is not so much to redesign the course as "re-brand" it, doing just as much work as it would take for me to let them say it was mine.  I am pretty wary of jobs like that, if they don't express what they dislike about the course and want to change.

[Chris DeToro]

Interesting.  Guess it shouldn't be that surprising, but I wouldn't like the idea of that type of job either for a number of reasons.  Has anyone ever come to you and flat said that their intention was to re-brand the course?

[Brad Tufts]

I would agree with Pat....TPC Boston was a renovation, not a complete re-design.  But, semantics.

I walked it for several days watching the tourney pre-reno.  I have played the Hanse version.

For a complete re-do, I think of Algonquin in New Brunswick.  An old Ross 27 that he never visited that was blown up and re-routed and completely changed by Thomas McBroom. 

I only played it once about 15 years ago, but I heard the new version is better than what was there pre-1998 or so.  It was so new when I was there that you could still make out the old Ross hole corridors going different directions than most new holes.

[goldj]

Finley Golf Course at UNC
The Floridian, now the Floridian National
Bayshore Golf in Miami Beach, now the Miami Beach Golf Club

All are totally new golf courses built on the site of older courses.