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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2003, 07:04:34 PM »
Margaret C,

Media interviews are structured for public consumption.  
I wouldn't be surprised if the players weren't constrained by internal restictions or guidelines imposed by the PGA Tour.
I don't know that you get the same level of candor that you get here.

When a player who competes in USGA events,
under USGA course conditions and set-ups, puts forth his opinion on set-ups and course conditions, I'm going to give that opinion added weight or credibility.  It is from a perspective that you or others can't supply.  Thus it is unique and insightful.

If you don't project yourself into the participants perspective, I can see how you wouldn't see "par" as a sacrosanct number.
Ask those trying to make match play if they share that view.
Ask the fellows who made bogie on the first playoff hole, who went home rather than qualify, if par was a significant number.  Ask Casey if he thinks par at # 10 is a significant number.

Does everyone who doesn't have to make one, when it counts, think par isn't a significant number ?

Let's not be so quick to dismiss the scoring standard for a hole, so soon.

No one has ever suggested that everyone isn't entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't give all opinions equal status or validity.

Lastly, is it possible that the conditions of the golf course where brought to a level that exceeded the ability of the field ?

Matt_Ward

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2003, 07:09:38 PM »
Count me in on the side that votes against heavy rough but wishes the bunkers to be as demanding as possible.

I never understood the mentality in having hay just off the fairways. The recovery aspect is completely negated and all you get is the exciting  ::) version of the dead-straight drivers society. That a-l-wa-y-s keeps me awake when watching on the tube.

P.S. I've played Oakmont since the tree removal program and it really doesn't need the amount of rough that sometimes is permitted (see the '83 Open as an example). Just keep the course rock firm and the terrain  / greens will do the trick quite nicely IMHO.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2003, 07:57:49 PM »
I saw MANY competitors advance the ball to & through the green from 150+ yards out.

If Casey's 2nd shot were hit 5 yards left of where it went, it may have bounced & rolled all the way down to the green. Don't judge the rough on one tough lie.

In Flanagan's semifinal match against Oh, Flanagan twice got up & down from the rough late in the match, on 15 & 16. Oh failed to get up & down on 18 to extend the match. Was the rough not penal enough or too penal?

Also, the fairways didn't appear to be overly narrowed to me. It will be very interesting to me to see how wide they will be in 2007.

As John indicated, the fairway bunkers at Oakmont are far more penal than fairway bunkers on most "championship" courses. Heck, I saw more guys pitch out of fairway bunkers than the rough.

I believe we were told on another thread that the rough surrounding the greenside bunkers may be trimmed in the future.

Furthermore, we were told be other posters that no one would go for 17 because of the peril that awaited. I would love to see the stats for how many went for it in match play - seemed like at least half to me. This would indicate to me that the competitors didn't view the rough as overly unfair, especially given how deeeeeep those greenside bunkers are.

Was the rough perfect? Maybe, maybe not. But I'd guess there is damn near nothing about the setup that the USGA or Oakmont would do differently if we could travel back a week with today's knowledge.

P.S. Doc - What do you & Bobby think of the current state of affairs at ANGC?  :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 08:00:58 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

MargaretC

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2003, 08:32:20 PM »


Mr. Mucci, whether or not you choose to give "...added weight or credibility." to any opinion is up to you.

"...but that doesn't give all opinions equal status or validity."  Status of an opinion is in the eye of a beholder.  There is no universal standard.
 
At the completion of stroke play in the US Am, 2 persons were at 140 and 3 were below 140 out of a field of 312, I believe.

"...Lastly, is it possible that the conditions of the golf course where brought to a level that exceeded the ability of the field ? "

From my perspective, that's irrelevant because the conditions were the same for everyone.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2003, 09:15:26 PM »
Margaret C,


"...Lastly, is it possible that the conditions of the golf course where brought to a level that exceeded the ability of the field ? "

From my perspective, that's irrelevant because the conditions were the same for everyone.

You didn't answer the question, and more importantly,
you're missing the more global issue.


MargaretC

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2003, 09:59:42 PM »

Mr. Mucci, I did answer your question.  The conditions of Oakmont were as they were intended to be.  Oakmont did not change the conditions for each competitor -- as such, Oakmont provided a level playing field each day.

Since 307 competitors of 312 had over 140 at the end of stroke play, I'd say that that demonstrates that "par" isn't sacrosanct.  Whittenberg was seeded 29; Williams was seeded 56; Oh was seeded 30 and Flanagan was seeded 55.

In golf competitions, the winner is the person with the low score -- whether the low score is below "par," even with "par" or greater than "par."

We can agree to disagree.

 

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2003, 11:24:57 AM »
Margaret C,

I don't think you addressed or answered the question, which was:

Is is possible that the conditions of the golf course were brought to a level that exceeded the ability of the field ?

By citing the gross scores over par, you seem to have inadvertantly and indirectly answered the question, but I'd much rather know where you stand with a simple yes or no answer.

Thanks.

JohnV

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2003, 11:56:37 AM »
Patrick, in the thread on Variable Course Ratings in the US, I noted that the 64 players who qualified for match play at the US Amateur average about 2.5 shots better than the published course rating of 76.8.  This means that the course did not exceed the ability of the players.  For the entire field, they were less than 2 strokes over the course rating.

Remember that par is not a relevant number, the Course Rating is the number that matters.  For Oakmont from the tips, that is 6.8 strokes higher than the "par" that the USGA played this week, which in itself is one stroke lower than the "par" the members play every week.

I won't even go into how the course rating would be higher if the course was rated with the rough height this past week.

Even a +5 handicap player would have trouble regularly beating a par of 70 at Oakmont from the tips.

MargaretC

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2003, 01:13:19 PM »

P. Mucci:

You asked, "...Is is possible that the conditions of the golf course were brought to a level that exceeded the ability of the field ?"

To which I responded that the conditions at Oakmont were as they were intended to be.  

Courses like Oakmont are always difficult -- period.  Any championship event scheduled at a course like Oakmont will be a challenge for all who participate.  

I honestly didn't understand your question.  To me, your question is strange insofar as the difficulty of Oakmont has always exceeded the ability of its membership and the vast majority of golfers -- but it is what it is.

JohnV is obviously more knowledgeable and I appreciate his technical explanation.  I also appreciate his opinion that "par" is not a relevant number.

Oakmont's "star" did shine during the US Am, but I do not share the opinion that Oakmont shined at the expense of the players.  IMHO, Oakmont's stature enhanced the results of the US Am and every player who proceeded into the match play, quarterfinals, semifinals and finals should feel a special pride in their accomplishments.

To bad the PGA doesn't use Oakmont caliber courses to challenge the breadth of skills of the top money makers.   8)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2003, 04:20:05 PM »
Margaret C,

You still haven't answered the question, which was not a question posed in the context of the membership, or how pleased those making match play at the US Amateur were.
It was a simple question that asked, if the condition of the golf course could be elevated to a level that exceeded the ability of the field ?

I'm puzzled as to why you're afraid to answer the question.

When you say the conditions were as they were intended to be, I would ask, who's intentions, the USGA's, the Club's or the Contestants ?  But, that's really not the issue.

The question is, can a golf course be prepared to a level such that the conditions exceed the abilities of the field in the competition ?

C'mon Margaret, I know that you know the answer, I just want to hear it from you  ;D

It's interesting, that even though they are two different golf courses, many on this site have opposed the pinching in of the fairways at ANGC and the growing of rough, not just at ANGC but as a general guideline at all golf courses, yet, Oakmont is getting high marks for doing just that.

Do I sense a 2S ?   ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 04:21:30 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JohnV

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2003, 04:43:54 PM »
Patrick, Obviously the conditions of a course can be raised to a point that exceed the ability of the field (or anyone for that matter.)  As an example, see the 18th hole at Olympic in 1998 or the 10th tee at Bethpage last year.  Fortunately this happens only rarely at this level.  It probably happens a little more often at lower levels of ability where the conditions required to exceed abilities are less strenuous.

But, as I argued above, I don't think that Oakmont exceeded the abilities of this field.  I wouldn't want to see how long it would have taken the 6th flight of the club championship to play the course though. :)

Gary_Smith

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2003, 05:39:44 PM »
From the hinterlands, a firm vote for furrowed bunkers and lowered rough.


MargaretC

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2003, 06:04:15 PM »
Patrick:

You obviously think that I'm being coy and unwilling to cough-up an answer that will give you a "gotcha!"   ::)

I am not, as you put it, "...afraid to answer the question."

Trust me, I don't get it.  For whatever reason, I'm not on your wave-length.  I have never viewed conditions of any course from a perspective relative to the abilities of the persons playing the course -- whether in a competitive context or in casual play.

Aside from the design of a course, maintenance and weather conditions each play a big role.  The impact of weather is beyond anyone's control.

To me, the conditions are what they are.

I have never played ANGC and I'm not familiar enough with its design and what, if any changes have been made.  As far as I know, the fairways at Oakmont were unchanged from when we played there over 6 years ago.  The rough, bunkers and greens at Oakmont gave me trouble and were unforgiving.  I honestly can't say if any were changed specifically for the US Am.  I am only aware that a par 5 was changed to a par 4 for the US Am.  The USGA is known for such and I also don't see that as a big deal.

Oakmont is and has always been considered to be a very challenging golf course.  Some persons call it penal.  Whatever, it is what it is.  Except for changing par back to 71, I doubt if it is much different today than it was last week.   :o  

Since I don't "get" your point (assuming that there is one), I am somewhat curious to read what it is; however, I won't loose sleep if you choose not to explain yourself.   ???

Cya!   :-*
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 06:07:50 PM by MargaretC »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2003, 07:22:20 PM »
 :-X :-X :-X :-X
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2003, 07:29:03 PM »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2003, 10:08:56 PM »
Margaret C,

You're too defensive.
I wasn't trying to mousetrap you into a "gotcha"
Merely a prudent answer.

My question to you was a springboard for other questions directed toward those who have been critical of the USGA for its US OPEN set-ups

It seemed to me that rgkeller objected to the severe conditions that were presented to the competitors at the US Amateur.  That the conditions overwhelmed the competitors.

It seemed to me, over the last three years, that many on this site have opposed the continuing lengthening of golf courses.

It seemed to me, over the last three years, that many on this site were vigorously opposed to golf courses protecting
par/scoring for the better players by narrowing fairways and letting the rough grow to significant density and length.

It seemed to me, over the last three years, that many on this site were opposed to increasing speeds on greens to the point that they were unmanageable, especially on sloped or contoured greens.

It seemed to me, over the last three years, that many on this site, have been in favor of firming up greens.

It seemed to me, over the last three years, that many on this site favored tree removal, from selective to total.

Viewing all of these variables, the question is, can a golf course be prepared, through the adjustment of the above factors, to such a degree, that the abilities of the field, in general, can't cope with the conditions presented ?

I believe the prudent answer is yes.

Yet, I believe that Oakmont:

1 lengthened their course
2 Narrowed their rough
3 enriched their rough
4 had high green speeds
5 had firm greens

But, Oakmont received high marks from many on this site.

Which leads me to the following.

If greens are made to be firm and fast, do those on the site perceive that the other factors are of little consequence ?

If Oakmont's conditions/set-up gets high marks, how can anyone on GCA.com complain about USOPEN set-ups ?

If AMATEURS can be subjected to the conditions that existed at Oakmont this past week, why shouldn't PGA Tour pros, the greatest players in the world, be subjected to similar conditions, perhaps conditions ratcheted up a notch, due to their enhanced abilities, when they play in US OPENS ?

Will Oakmont's conditions be softened or hardened for the greatest players in the world ?

Isn't this course set-up in direct conflict to the desire for wider fairways and less onerous rough ?

T_MacWood

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2003, 10:17:10 PM »
Pat
I take it you haven't played Oakmont.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2003, 10:22:05 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Once again, you're WRONG.

I have played Oakmont.


T_MacWood

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2003, 10:34:18 PM »
I would have thought had you played Oakmont you would've understood the mentality of the place. Always an intense no holds barred survival constest. Thats the way it is today...that is the way it was when Fownes founded the place...I thought you were one for continuity. Had you been in the company of Mr.Fownes when questioning the rough the old man would've struck you down with a furrowing rake....dug another deep trench...burried you in it and moved on.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 10:36:51 PM by Tom MacWood »

MargaretC

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2003, 10:35:11 PM »

To:  mdugger and GeorgeP:

:-X :-X :-X :-X and  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I can only say  ;)  ::) :-*

Mike_Cirba

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2003, 10:58:11 PM »
Patrick/Tom MacWood

Speaking of penal golf courses, I can't help but ask the question...

Which do you think was the tougher golf course for all levels of golfer in 1929...Oakmont...

or Hollywood???

Travis's original bunkering patterns at Hollywood would have made Fownes blush!   :o

MargaretC

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2003, 11:19:54 PM »
Oh, Mr. Mucci, you can't possibly be serious.  No chance that this Irish Lass is being defensive.  No wonder you have such a high number of posts on this board.  You expend way too much effort in attempting to make a point where none exists.  Could it be that you have "Oakmont-envy," lad?   :o

I cannot address dialogues that have occurred on this board over the last 3 years.  That said, your "springboard" question appears to have no bounce.

Viewing all of these variables, the question is, can a golf course be prepared, through the adjustment of the above factors, to such a degree, that the abilities of the field, in general, can't cope with the conditions presented ?

I believe the prudent answer is yes.

Yet, I believe that Oakmont:

1 lengthened their course  Yes, it did.
2 Narrowed their rough  (Did you mean fairways?  If so, the answer is no change)
3 enriched their rough  To this, I'm not sure.
4 had high green speeds  always did have high green speeds.
5 had firm greens  always had firm greens

But, Oakmont received high marks from many on this site.  Oakmont earned all of its high marks.

Mr. Mucci, in the case of Oakmont, you have no points to make insofar as Oakmont has returned to the design created by its founder.  Oakmont has always been considered a long course, with fast greens, unforgiving rough and bunkers.  None of the changes made were made for the sake of change as other courses have done.  Oakmont is not a collection of helter-skelter holes.  There is a continuum of history at Oakmont and IMHO, it's a wonderful venue for championship golf.   ;)





« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 11:28:47 PM by MargaretC »

CHrisB

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2003, 11:26:22 PM »
If Oakmont's conditions/set-up gets high marks, how can anyone on GCA.com complain about USOPEN set-ups ?

If AMATEURS can be subjected to the conditions that existed at Oakmont this past week, why shouldn't PGA Tour pros, the greatest players in the world, be subjected to similar conditions, perhaps conditions ratcheted up a notch, due to their enhanced abilities, when they play in US OPENS ?

Patrick,
I certainly can't speak for others here but the reason I approve of the Oakmont set-up for the U.S. Amateur but not for the U.S. Open has to do with the differences in match play and stroke play tournaments.

The U.S. Am is match play, in which severe conditions generally don't affect the nature of the competition like they do stroke play. The competition is made up of individual matches, with play "starting over" each day with new matches. Once the matches start, the player only has one opponent each day. The only cumulative effect of the competition is that the winners keep playing. So a blow-up hole only costs you one hole lost, with the chance that your opponent might blow up and give you the hole right back.

The U.S. Open is stroke play, and the entire competition is cumulative; that is, every stroke taken counts in the end, and the score carries over each day. Furthermore, the player's competition is the entire field, not just one player a day. So a blow-up hole any day of the tournament is likely to put the player in jeopardy of falling out of contention, because the player can't hope for the entire rest of the field to blow up as well. so the penalty for having a blow-up hole is more severe in a stroke play event.

Because the conditions are getting so severe in the U.S. Am and U.S. Open, the line between a good shot that turns out well and a shot that is severly penalized seems to be getting smaller all the time, but again that's fine for match play because such penalties can be overcome much more easily than in stroke play. In stroke play, blurring the line between a successful shot and a disastrous one puts the competition in danger of becoming a lottery, of who can walk the tightrope and whose misses are fortunate enough not to be penalized too severely.

Furthermore, the aims of stroke and match play tournaments are different. Yes, both aim to crown a champion golfer, but certainly the aim in the stroke play U.S. Open is to "identify the best player" through manipulation of the conditions to create an ideal (in the USGA's eyes) test of golf for the players.

But I certainly don't think the intention of the U.S. Am is to "identify the best player", and the consensus seems to be that match play is so unpredictable that the chances are that the "best player" will rarely win. It is more a contest to see who can survive, who can remain standing at the end of a series of elimination matches, who can find a way to win his matches regardless of the conditions or his opponents.

So in my mind severe playing conditions are just another obstacle facing the players in a match play event, whereas in stroke play they threaten to undermine the entire purpose and nature of the competition.

Other reasons that severe conditions work better in match play are (i) the improved pace of play of match play, (ii) players don't have to hole out on every hole in match play, and (iii) more aggressive shots are played in match play knowing that the biggest penalty for getting into trouble is one hole lost.

So for all those reasons I say for match play, "Bring it on--make it tough", but for stroke play I would have a little more of a problem with conditions as severe as we saw at Oakmont this week.

TEPaul

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2003, 11:54:15 PM »
"Is it possible that the conditions of the golf course were brought to a level that exceeded the ability of the field?"

Patrick--what the hell are you talking about? The ablility of the field to do what? The ability to shoot par, to hit more fairways, to finish the round, to maintain their sanity? What are you talking about? Are you on another wild goose chase to try to establish another lagubrious double standard point about something again? What is it with you and this double standard thing?    




T_MacWood

Re:Oakmont and rough
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2003, 06:19:17 AM »
Mike
All the bizarre shapes and sizes might have inspired Fownes do build even more bunkers! Because of the deepness of the fairway pits, the furrows and the extraordinary speed and firmness of the greens its hard to beat Oakmont's difficulty....especially the greens.

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