[Patrick_Mucci]

Does the larger size of a green make reading putts more difficult ?

Is the golfer fooled or swayed by the Macro aspects of the putting surface ?

Recently, on the 9th green (left) I noticed a slight bump/hump/dome near the center of the green.

This feature was almost imperceptible from a distance and from just off the green.

Only by really studying the green did this feature reveal itself.

Brian, a highly skilled and experienced caddy was aware of it's exist acne and influence, but others weren't.

The feature was lost or hidden by the scale/size of the green.

C & C's greens at Hidden Creek have similar qualities and are hard to read.

On small greens the Macro aspect doesn't serve to obscure reads.
The Macro aspect seems to reinforce reads.

Do larger greens allow the architect to deceive the golfer more than he could on smaller greens ?

[Bill_McBride]

Does the larger size of a green make reading putts more difficult ?

Is the golfer fooled or swayed by the Macro aspects of the putting surface ?

Recently, on the 9th green (left) I noticed a slight bump/hump/dome near the center of the green.

This feature was almost imperceptible from a distance and from just off the green.

Only by really studying the green did this feature reveal itself.

Brian, a highly skilled and experienced caddy was aware of it's exist acne and influence, but others weren't.

The feature was lost or hidden by the scale/size of the green.

C & C's greens at Hidden Creek have similar qualities and are hard to read.

On small greens the Macro aspect doesn't serve to obscure reads.
The Macro aspect seems to reinforce reads.

Do larger greens allow the architect to deceive the golfer more than he could on smaller greens ?

Yes

[Rich Goodale]

Brian, a highly skilled and experienced caddy was aware of it's exist acne and influence, but others weren't.

I wasn't aware that the PV greens had acne.  Hopefully they are treating it with something stronger than Clearisil.

[DMoriarty]

Then you probably have never seen the old photo with the infamous pine valley pimple.

[Rich Goodale]

I suspect that the famous PV wen would require several tank cars of Clearasil to get under control....

[archie_struthers]

 


Pine Valley greens are exceptionally difficult to read expertly mainly because the daily speed magnifies breaks so much.  If you have been there enough , and know them , like Brian (an exceptional caddy) you get an innate feel for the speed from day to day. The reading of the break is easier , as once it starts moving it generally continues on the course it begins . As Pat describes , the undulations are macro in nature.

I hesitate to put Hidden Creek in the same category ,  as my issue there is a ten foot putt might break three ways while appearing fairly flat . Probably a few too many micro contours for me. Makes it more difficult to roll the short ones . 

[Chris DeToro]

Larger greens are much more difficult to read based simply on the fact that there is more terrain to cover in my opinion.  Battle Creek CC has gigantic greens and it wouldn't be unusual to have a lengthy putt that breaks in several different directions along the way nevermind the up or downhill influence as well

[JESII]

I can't begin to imagne what Brian must have done to wipe away 25 or more years of good work to get saddled with you for a round or two...

Regarding the feature in question...I suspect you were in a position in which that mound blended with some of the other features beyond because it's not all that subtle if you're chipping from short or right of the green. If you're short-left or left and have to cross it to get to the hole I could imagine not seeing it nearly as influential as it is.

Where were you playing from and where was the hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I suspect that the famous PV wen would require several tank cars of Clearasil to get under control....

Rich, quit being a douche bag on typo errors, especially from Ipads.

Or perhaps in your quest for perfection you might tell us what "wen" means, in your sentence above

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can't begin to imagne what Brian must have done to wipe away 25 or more years of good work to get saddled with you for a round or two...

Jim, why don't you ask him about his experience caddying for me.
He caddies for me every year and looks forward to those days as we have a very good time together.

Perhaps an intelligent gathering of the facts, rather than speculation, might lead you to post more relevant and accurate replies.

Regarding the feature in question...I suspect you were in a position in which that mound blended with some of the other features beyond because it's not all that subtle if you're chipping from short or right of the green. If you're short-left or left and have to cross it to get to the hole I could imagine not seeing it nearly as influential as it is.

So, it's your contention that from 5, 10 or 20 yards short of the green that the mound screams out at the golfer ?
That it's presence is readily discernable ?

Where were you playing from and where was the hole?

The hole was back behind the mound.

I was playing from 15 yards short of the green.

[Rich Goodale]

I suspect that the famous PV wen would require several tank cars of Clearasil to get under control....

Rich, quit being a douche bag on typo errors, especially from Ipads.

Or perhaps in your quest for perfection you might tell us what "wen" means, in your sentence above

Dear Pat

I assumed that as a ND scholar that you would know:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/wen

All the best

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

And I falsely believed that as a Stanford man you'd understand that the Ipad completes words for you and that "existance" and "exist acne" just might be a product of the program.

Sorry I didn't have the time to proof read.

Stop being a nit picking douche bag, it doesn't become you.

[JLahrman]

Rich,

And I falsely believed that as a Stanford man you'd understand that the Ipad completes words for you and that "existance" and "exist acne" just might be a product of the program.

Sorry I didn't have the time to proof read.

Stop being a nit picking douche bag, it doesn't become you.

The word is "existence", not "existance". And the product is Clearasil, not Clearisil. Come on guys, and I went to public school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

His best song in years, and he even calls people morons. It will also help Mr. Mucci with when to use "it's" vs. "its".

Back to the topic, and Mr. Mucci thank you for the more descriptive thread titles. I'm actually opening your topics now.

The best example I can think of is Camargo which has large greens that feature a lot of tilt but not that much undulation (with certain exceptions). It's not as much a matter of missing slight bumps or dips. The challenge is that can be very easy to underestimate the amount of break on longer putts. A slight bit of tilt on a 50-foot putt can add up to a lot of break.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

And I falsely believed that as a Stanford man you'd understand that the Ipad completes words for you and that "existance" and "exist acne" just might be a product of the program.

Sorry I didn't have the time to proof read.

Stop being a nit picking douche bag, it doesn't become you.

The word is "existence", not "existance". And the product is Clearasil, not Clearisil. Come on guys, and I went to public school.

Mr. JL

It was a "guy" (i.e. Mooch) who misspelled and/or mistyped "existence," not "guys" (i.e. Mooch et Moi).  I think I spelled "Clearasil" right both times, but unlike Pat I do not use the product and I could be worng.....

Give Mooch a break--it is possible that he had a female TA and/or a fake dead girlfriend who wrote his papers when he attended South Bend (insert many confused emoticons here).

Mr. Rich

[JESII]

Pat,

The peak of the mound is probably 12 inches higher then the ground 15 feet short of it...that's a pretty sharp rise. You not seeing it surprises me...especially as it's been there for a long time.

[JLahrman]

All in good fun Rich, I was actually just looking for an excuse to post a Weird Al video.

[Mark Chaplin]

Best time to study greens is first light or dusk when the shadows show the undulations much easier.

I've a few days at PV soon so will try and spot Pat's bump!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The peak of the mound is probably 12 inches higher then the ground 15 feet short of it...that's a pretty sharp rise. You not seeing it surprises me...especially as it's been there for a long time.

We're obviously not talking about the same feature.

Evidently you've never recognized the feature I'm referencing.

It is a SUBTLE rise/dome within the general slope of the green and not the upper plateau that you may be referencing.

I don't have a photo of it, and I don't know that a photo would capture the nuances within that green.
But, it's not very obvious to the golfer.

While I agree that reading green contours is easier when the light is low on the horizon or under car headlights, that luxury isn't often afforded to day time golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Best time to study greens is first light or dusk when the shadows show the undulations much easier.

Mark,

If you get a chance, inspect the greens late in the day/early evening, I think you'll find incredible micro contouring that's contrary to the macro contour.

This aspect tends to deceive the golfer.

The feature is far more prevalent on the larger greens, than say, greens # 8.

The greens at PV provide an interesting contrast between the macro and micro

I've a few days at PV soon so will try and spot Pat's bump!

I don't know that it's configuration qualifies it as a "bump", but, look for it within the left mid point of the green.
It's a pretty neat feature, one that puts more of a premium on getting your ball to the back of the green when the hole is cut toward the back.

Have fun, PV is quite unique.

How Crump and others, a century ago, were able to craft spectacular holes out of the dense woods and underbrush is really amazing

[Rich Goodale]

All in good fun Rich, I was actually just looking for an excuse to post a Weird Al video.

JL

I posted that video to another website and it went viral!  God Bless Al.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat I'm looking forward to the trip, I'm lucky to have a couple of member friends so have spent time there before. The best thing about repeat visits is the pro shop spend gets lighter!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat I'm looking forward to the trip, I'm lucky to have a couple of member friends so have spent time there before.

The best thing about repeat visits is the pro shop spend gets lighter!

That's very true.
However, I love the Pine Soap and on occasion have bought out the inventory.

If you have the time, look at the nuanced internal contours.
Not the bold ones that everyone sees, but the subtle interior ones that few, other than repeat players and good caddies see.

They're not so much on the heavily sloped or smaller greens like # 2, 3, 5, 8, 15, 17 and 18, but on all the others.

So much depends upon where the hole is cut on a given green.
If you have the time, wander around the greens I identified and look for those subtle counter intuitive breaks.

If you have time and don't delay the group behind you, roll balls in different directions on the greens and you'll marvel at the path the ball often takes.

Have fun and stay below the hole if you can.
 

[Mark Chaplin]

First time i played there my host has a 6' downhill/sidehill putt for a half on the 5th, if he missed the ball was 20' away. Kenny the caddie pipes up "visitors who want to come back normally give these". Needless to say I've been back and Kenny has always had my bag!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I believe that the 5th green has been softened.

Still, putts from above 4 and 8 O'clock are incredibly difficult.

Miss that downhill 5 footer and degreening it comes into play.

Reading putts on your own can be very challenging, especially on overcast days

[Patrick_Mucci]

Were these counter slopes a product of Crump's genius or flaws in the construction of the greens ?

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